Total Depravity

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

List three.

Sinners coming to God on their own for education in their flesh? Okay; I'm intrigued. Provide the scriptural support for that position and make that case.

Lol I didn't say there were many Biblical reasons. Just plenty of normal reasons - education, ecstatic experience, empowerment... there's 3 for you, and I confined myself to things that start with 'e.'

 

[Josheb]

It's normal human nature to DESIRE what's been forbidden - the existence of a LAW creates the human desire to break it.

All you've done is post another statement needing proof of its correctness.

"Lust" (personal desire) defined perfectly.

Not for the pre-disobedient good and sinless Adam. You keep begging the question, Bob. Stop assuming that which you're supposed to be proving: Adam "responded to 'temptation' (James 1) in exactly the same way we all do."

Eve was LUSTING about what had been forbidden - plain as day!!

Eve is not Adam.

And to MY SATISFACTION, I have.

You spend a lot of time in multiple forums decrying the practice of personal opinion, personal interpretation, and personal satisfaction, especially that which cannot and will not be supported with well-rendered scripture.

Nope FOUR options. You forgot: "decide that the whole thing is a lost cause because of conflicting Theological fixations", and walk away. I'm done here.

No. Three options. The above is a red herring. I haven't posted any "conflicting theological fixations." What I did do was ask you to prove Adam (not Eve), "responded to 'temptation' (James 1) in exactly the same way we all do." Adam was not the same as us prior to Genesis 3:6. That's not a "theological fixation." God Himself called Adam good and God's word explicitly states he was unashamed and sinless prior to Genesis 3:6.

But you have come along and made a statement that warrants proving. How can you say a good, unashamed, and sinless man living in a good and sinless world where nothing sinful exists say his experience is exactly the same as the person who has sinned, had his flesh corrupted by sin, living in sin-saturated world where nothing good exists apart from Christ? How can you compare the good and sinless man that doesn't Jesus with the man who knows Jesus and is filled with His Spirit?

I did ask.

What I first received was reckless eisegesis. Now fallacies of logic are posted (shifts in the goalposts, false equivalences, begged questions, and red herrings).

Yup that's what I said, and that's what I meant.

No problem!!! It's normal human nature to DESIRE what's been forbidden - the existence of a LAW creates the human desire to break it.

Chuckle!! "Lust" (personal desire) defined perfectly. Eve was LUSTING about what had been forbidden - plain as day!!

And to MY SATISFACTION, I have.

Nope FOUR options. You forgot: "decide that the whole thing is a lost cause because of conflicting Theological fixations", and walk away. I'm done here.

Wasting both our time. You said what you said and said you meant what you said but have not proved the claim correct beyond you own satisfaction. I have now asked thrice.

 

[Josheb]

It has not rained, or your child is sick, or your family fortune is riding on this ship carrying trade goods to a foreign port arriving safely. God … the great Slot Machine.

Got examples from scripture?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Wasting both our time.

I agree.

 

[Josheb]

I agree.

Then let the record show a comment was posted that couldn't be proven beyond personal satisfaction and was eventually conceded as a waste of our time.

 

[donadams]

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

 

[Josheb]

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Give us an example from scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Got examples from scripture?

Yes.
(Not that I see how that is relevant. The request was for reasons people might approach God except desiring salvation … human motives.)

 

[Josheb]

Yes.

Please post one.

(Not that I see how that is relevant. The request was for reasons people might approach God except desiring salvation … human motives.)

Holding views that cannot be evidenced with scriptural precedent tend not to be true, but I'm guessing most if not all precedents are those of people already in a covenant relationship with God or one in which God has worked to affect the specified outcomes and not examples of someone coming to God on their own in their flesh for the purpose(s) you (and the others have listed). It's a good topic for a separate thread so I'll endeavor to keep the digression relevant to total depravity.

Gimme an example.

 

[atpollard]

Gimme an example.

I will pass … you have requested far more qualifiers than the original post I responded to and I have no interest in chasing the new goal posts. Nothing happens that God is not the FIRST CAUSE of, so I have no intention of even attempting to provide Scripture demonstrating what the request has morphed into.

I merely posit that a person (unsaved) might approach God to beg for the life of a sick child without seeking personal salvation as their motivation. I believe that the unsaved approach God with wrong motives every day … no atheists in fox holes phenomenon. To morph that into a request for scripture proving Libertine Free Will is a task I have no interest in.

 

[Arial]

Give us an example from scripture.

If I go back and answer the original question of what other reasons people would have for approaching God other than salvation, the answers given, and then you asking for examples from scripture; and given the OP is on total depravity and your responses and questions generally relate directly to the topic of the OP, I will answer the question according to scripture.

There are no examples in the Bible of anyone approaching God for any reason, other than those in a covenant relationship with Him. Be it Adam and Eve, Job, Abraham, David, or anyone in the NT. And it is always God who initiates the covenant and chooses who is in that covenant. Here covenant cannot be restricted to the formal covenant stipulations such as in the Mosaic and etc. and named specifically as covenants in the scripture, but are in fact any relationship God establishes between man and Himself. And beginning in Himself with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

There are many covenants as shown in scripture but are, but they are all "chapters" of that one covenant as it unfolds in history. Outside of covenant, that is always initiated by God, no one seeks God, no not one. Because we are all utterly depraved, alienated from Him and that covenant relationship, and therefore at enmity with Him.

Only after we are brought into a covenant relationship do we seek Him. Seeking Him is not is not looking for Him for salvation. Seeking Him is only done once we have been "found" by Him and brought into covenant.

 

[Josheb]

There are no examples in the Bible of anyone approaching God for any reason, other than those in a covenant relationship with Him.

I agree.

But just so everyone here knows, I was willing to entertain the possibility if some evidence of an unregenerate sinner seeking God in his own might for any specified purpose could be provided. My first thought was of Naaman, the Aramean king afflicted with leprosy coming to God for healing but upon reading the account I find he comes to God via a captured Jewish girl, then summoned by Elisha, then called and commanded by God while obstinately fighting every step of the way. I also thought of examples like the Babel tower. That's certainly an example of fleshly attempts to reach God, but the purpose of making a name for themselves is paradoxical. I'll also add there are several reasons asserted buy no one providing examples (or apparently understanding why that matters) .

 

[Arial]

I agree.

But just so everyone here knows, I was willing to entertain the possibility if some evidence of an unregenerate sinner seeking God in his own might for any specified purpose could be provided. My first thought was of Naaman, the Aramean king afflicted with leprosy coming to God for healing but upon reading the account I find he comes to God via a captured Jewish girl, then summoned by Elisha, then called and commanded by God while obstinately fighting every step of the way. I also thought of examples like the Babel tower. That's certainly an example of fleshly attempts to reach God, but the purpose of making a name for themselves is paradoxical. I'll also add there are several reasons asserted buy no one providing examples (or apparently understanding why that matters) .

And we see in the account of Naaman that God did what He did for His own purposes. Naaman was not seeking God, He was seeking benefits that someone told him would come through Elisha. Just as many followed Jesus for the loaves and fishes. And there are examples in scripture of pagans calling God God and calling upon Him (always I think but do not swear by it, because of what they had heard from an Israelite, and through an Israelite) but they are still thinking of Him as a god, the mightiest of all the other gods, and are looking for a fleshly benefit.

Such may be the case with Nimrod also. In any case, it is always trying to climb the ladder to heaven through some means other that Christ.