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To you it has been given to know...

I would suggest caution calling Paul a "murderer". By the spiritual definition of Jesus all men are, but.. Paul was acting under the auspices of what was lawful by his government. "Sanctioned".. so, we should be specific. He was a persecutor of the Church.
As you know because a government sanctions something it doesn't make it OK with God. Abortion is an example.
Concerning Paul we have to understand the full range of "persecutor of the Church".
 
God forbid anyone should be taught anything! :) That is not a valid reason for neglecting and rejecting what I said. There may be such a reason, but that is not it.

What does it say when Jesus is explaining why he speaks in parables? "To those who have, more will be given but to those who do not have , even what they have will be taken away." Those Jesus was speaking to had been given, as I said, in the Law and Prophets, before the incarnation. Now that very Messiah was standing before them. If they see him as Messiah, Savior, Son of God, and still reject him, is that not worse? Do you think the person who is morally "good" all there life, but comes under judgement anyway because they never accepted Christ, receives the same degree of judgment as does the one who openly rejects him?

And they were not "made" blind. It is the natural condition of mankind in Adam. I will get to the rest of the post later. I have things in the real world I need to take care of.
"Made"= created.. blind. God still creates men, and by your doctrine they are Created Blind. As I said before, you are correct, the "little they were given" was the Law and Prophets.. and by rejection, THAT is taken away. You have that part right. But, what you are not addressing, is the question.. first, why use parables for the blind? You are not answering that, and you claim it's for 'greater judgement'. I'm aware of only one mention of 'greater judgement' and it's of teachers. Where are you getting 'greater judgement' from in scripture?
 
Yes...

Look at it like this...

We were of our father the devil. He knows we are Born spiritually dead. Even knowing this, he will carry the Gospel Seed away. Why? Because the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation; being blind is not enough to thwart the Gospel...
So the blind CAN see the Truth, can HEAR the Gospel. Thank you.
 
"Made"= created.. blind. God still creates men, and by your doctrine they are Created Blind. As I said before, you are correct, the "little they were given" was the Law and Prophets.. and by rejection, THAT is taken away. You have that part right. But, what you are not addressing, is the question.. first, why use parables for the blind? You are not answering that, and you claim it's for 'greater judgement'. I'm aware of only one mention of 'greater judgement' and it's of teachers. Where are you getting 'greater judgement' from in scripture?
The Problem of Evil ~ by ReverendRV * November 5

John 9:1-2 NIV
; As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

How can you adequately address the Problem of Evil in a one page Gospel Tract?? When I first became a Christian I foolishly thought it would be an easy thing. The Bible says that God tries us in the Crucible like molten Gold; skimming the Dross off the top. This intellectual answer falls short of being compassionate though, and it can never help those who have suffered from the evil acts of men. Though my answer is partly correct, we have to resist the Pride of head knowledge; God can show ‘us’ how it falls short. Later in my life I suffered from the evil actions of men and though I had head knowledge, I still cried out to God, “Why??” ~ The Problem of Evil is the main reason Atheists rule out the existence of God; if there were a God, why doesn’t he do anything about Evil? “Okay, okay, that’s fair. Where should God begin?”

What if God started with you? ~ Have you ever told a Lie? Sure you have; what do you call people that Lie? You object, “Wait right there, Lying isn’t Evil!” Let me ask you this, is Satan Evil? “Yes…” The Devil is called “the Father of Lies”. Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said that if you have Lusted after someone, you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart. People who have cheated on their Spouse usually have the consent of the other woman when they have an affair; but Lust never has the other persons consent! Have you ever Hated somebody? If you’ve suffered because of Evil, I bet you have. Jesus said that Hatred is Murder in our Hearts. Satan is a murderer from the beginning; just by telling Lies. If you’ve ever said that someone belongs in Hell, you recognize God’s authority to Judge even you. ~ These were only three of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you by his Laws, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ You don’t have to go to Hell; God HAS done something about Evil…

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have Everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is this Son of God, born of a Virgin in order to not be tainted by the Sin of Adam. He lived a Sinless life and was killed by the hands and hearts of Sinful Men, for the Sins of all believers. He was Crucified and shed his blood as punishment for Sins we deserved to pay for. After three days in the grave, he arose from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God in Heaven. We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to a Church that teaches the Bible. ~ God uses Evil; although we meant Sin for Evil, God means it for Good; for the Saving of many lives. When asked why the man was born blind, Jesus said it wasn’t because of ‘Sin/Evil’ but for that very moment; so the Works of God would be displayed by healing his eyes. ~ If you were comforted because I said that even I had to ask God “Why??”, Jesus himself asked why; even though he had all the head knowledge a person can have about it. Jesus understands your experience like no one else can…

Psalm 22:1a ESV; My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
 
@Eleanor referred to this in her post #100. I will try to elucidate:

God uses means to accomplish his ends. Your question has been asked by others in many different ways: "Why need the Calvinist do anything, if, elect, he is going to be what God intended all along anyway?", "Why the 'P' in TULIP? Aren't they going to Heaven anyway?", and on and on...

This is typical of the mindset and worldview of those who insist on self-determination. Without realizing that they do so, they attempt to put themselves on even causation with God. They think that what they do adds to what God does, instead of being part of what God does.
"Efficiency" is one of God's attributes. He wastes nothing. No act on his part is without effect, and every smallest effect is for a purpose. Thus, when he determined from before the foundation of the world to create a bride for the Son of God, and a dwelling place for the Spirit of God, and a people who together and individually would be with him for the praise of his glory, she being perfect in every way, full of detail and beauty, without spot or blemish, He was specific in what would accomplish this end, He did not "try this and that", but did everything with precision, to include "US trying this and that"—each action on our part with its own effects, to include changes in us. WE HAVE TO choose, do, be active—we can't help it—that much is obvious. But the fact that we do it points to the very creator and sustainer of the universe and of life itself and of very existence. We are not independent of God. Not even Satan is independent.

But look at the earthy, mundane way God has accomplished all he does. Why would we have wills? Why would he create mites and mosquitos? Why does refuse stink? Why does sound travel in the air, at STP, at 1,100 ft per sec? —I'm not talking here as a preacher might, of some poetic way that these speak of God's greatness, but of the day by day not-particularly-important things that have an effect on the hearers of the Gospel, and the doers of God's purposes.

Referring to the example above (the 'P' in TULIP): The perseverance of the saints is by the acts of the saints, by the every day work of the Spirit of God in them, and by external causes on them, by the will of God. It is so subtle that we think WE keep ourselves, not realizing the whole time that every detail is the work of God. THAT is why the perseverance of the saints is a SURE THING. Not because we are faithful, but because God will accomplish everything he set out to do.

So also, God obfuscates the message SO THAT the blind will not see and the deaf will not hear. The SURE FACT that they won't is the work of God. The very principles involved are accomplished by God's direct and indirect acts upon them. They are not independently unable to believe—they are not even independently anything at all. They do not have existence in and of themselves. Satan does not exist independently of God's power. We are mere creatures.
"God obfuscates the message SO THAT the blind will not see and the deaf will not hear." I mean, that's the end of the discussion.
 
So the blind CAN see the Truth, can HEAR the Gospel. Thank you.
This is why though Sinners are Blind, Deaf and Dead, God has to Obscure the Gospel; lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and Believe...
 
The Problem of Evil ~ by ReverendRV * November 5

John 9:1-2 NIV
; As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

How can you adequately address the Problem of Evil in a one page Gospel Tract?? When I first became a Christian I foolishly thought it would be an easy thing. The Bible says that God tries us in the Crucible like molten Gold; skimming the Dross off the top. This intellectual answer falls short of being compassionate though, and it can never help those who have suffered from the evil acts of men. Though my answer is partly correct, we have to resist the Pride of head knowledge; God can show ‘us’ how it falls short. Later in my life I suffered from the evil actions of men and though I had head knowledge, I still cried out to God, “Why??” ~ The Problem of Evil is the main reason Atheists rule out the existence of God; if there were a God, why doesn’t he do anything about Evil? “Okay, okay, that’s fair. Where should God begin?”

What if God started with you? ~ Have you ever told a Lie? Sure you have; what do you call people that Lie? You object, “Wait right there, Lying isn’t Evil!” Let me ask you this, is Satan Evil? “Yes…” The Devil is called “the Father of Lies”. Have you ever committed Adultery? Jesus said that if you have Lusted after someone, you’ve committed Adultery in your Heart. People who have cheated on their Spouse usually have the consent of the other woman when they have an affair; but Lust never has the other persons consent! Have you ever Hated somebody? If you’ve suffered because of Evil, I bet you have. Jesus said that Hatred is Murder in our Hearts. Satan is a murderer from the beginning; just by telling Lies. If you’ve ever said that someone belongs in Hell, you recognize God’s authority to Judge even you. ~ These were only three of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you by his Laws, would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ You don’t have to go to Hell; God HAS done something about Evil…

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have Everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is this Son of God, born of a Virgin in order to not be tainted by the Sin of Adam. He lived a Sinless life and was killed by the hands and hearts of Sinful Men, for the Sins of all believers. He was Crucified and shed his blood as punishment for Sins we deserved to pay for. After three days in the grave, he arose from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God in Heaven. We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to a Church that teaches the Bible. ~ God uses Evil; although we meant Sin for Evil, God means it for Good; for the Saving of many lives. When asked why the man was born blind, Jesus said it wasn’t because of ‘Sin/Evil’ but for that very moment; so the Works of God would be displayed by healing his eyes. ~ If you were comforted because I said that even I had to ask God “Why??”, Jesus himself asked why; even though he had all the head knowledge a person can have about it. Jesus understands your experience like no one else can…

Psalm 22:1a ESV; My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
I would argue that Jesus was not 'asking'.. He was 'Telling'. Psalm 22, the reciting of the first line of a psalm was how they "called the tune", it was Him stating Who He was. The prophesy in that psalm declares Him, and what He was fulfilling in that moment.
"This is why though Sinners are Blind, Deaf and Dead, God has to Obscure the Gospel; lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and Believe..."
Again, I believe it states "If" they see and hear, He WILL turn and heal them.
 
I would argue that Jesus was not 'asking'.. He was 'Telling'. Psalm 22, the reciting of the first line of a psalm was how they "called the tune", it was Him stating Who He was. The prophesy in that psalm declares Him, and what He was fulfilling in that moment.
It is an example of God wanting a person to be born blind...

God Meant this to happen for Good...
 
I would argue that Jesus was not 'asking'.. He was 'Telling'. Psalm 22, the reciting of the first line of a psalm was how they "called the tune", it was Him stating Who He was. The prophesy in that psalm declares Him, and what He was fulfilling in that moment.
"This is why though Sinners are Blind, Deaf and Dead, God has to Obscure the Gospel; lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and Believe..."
Again, I believe it states "If" they see and hear, He WILL turn and heal them.
Civic?
 
It is an example of God wanting a person to be born blind...

God Meant this to happen for Good...
God Himself stepped in to this.. He didn't 'step someone else' in.
And what do you mean by "Civic"?
 
"God obfuscates the message SO THAT the blind will not see and the deaf will not hear." I mean, that's the end of the discussion.
Your issue with with Jesus (Mt 13:12) and
judicial (judgmental) blindness by God; i.e., the ability they had to see is now taken away, and they cannot see (Jn 12:37-40, Ro 11:8-11).
 
"Made"= created.. blind. God still creates men, and by your doctrine they are Created Blind. As I said before, you are correct, the "little they were given" was the Law and Prophets.. and by rejection, THAT is taken away. You have that part right. But, what you are not addressing, is the question.. first, why use parables for the blind? You are not answering that, and you claim it's for 'greater judgement'. I'm aware of only one mention of 'greater judgement' and it's of teachers. Where are you getting 'greater judgement' from in scripture?
John 3:17 tells us...
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Sounds like we are born condemned.
 
John 3:17 tells us...
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Sounds like we are born condemned.
Indeed. . .we are born condemned by the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), which imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousess of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) to all those of Christ.
 
John 3:17 tells us...
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Sounds like we are born condemned.
I agree those born into Adam are condemned. No argument there. Not born without a conscious or the ability to respond to God though, as clearly shown throughout scripture.
 
I agree those born into Adam are condemned. No argument there. Not born without a conscious or the ability to respond to God though, as clearly shown throughout scripture.
When anyone in the Bible Believes, we're to Presume that Grace has already appeared to make a Real difference in that person's life...

Even in Provisionism...
 
Indeed. . .we are born condemned by the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), which imputation of Adam's sin to all those of Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousess of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) to all those of Christ.
Doesn't say 'imputed sin', it says 'sin entered the world'.. and so death. We inherit death. It doesn't say that God holds Adam's sin against man, it says we all sin. Unless you can point to where it does say specifically.
 
When anyone in the Bible Believes, we're to Presume that Grace has already appeared to make a Real difference in that person's life...

Even in Provisionism...
I'm aware, and I agree.. common grace.
*Although, I think we have different definitions. Sounds like you mean someone was already getting their act together, We believe God will snatch a believer out of the maw of Hell.
 
I'm aware, and I agree.. common grace.
See; we all agree that to an extent...

One thing will show the difference though. If Belief is step two in the Salvation equation, then aren't we Totally Unable until step one takes place?

Until Grace first appears?
 
See; we all agree that to an extent...

One thing will show the difference though. If Belief is step two in the equation, then aren't we Totally Unable until step one takes place?

Until Grace first appears?
Common grace is given to all humanity. A conscience, a law unto themselves.. a provision to respond to God commands, in faith.. a gift. We believe the 'ability to choose' is the grace, given to humanity. Still 'not of ourselves', but not 'meticulously contrived'. It's a real choice.. and had God not been gracious to give us a conscience, we'd be animals.
 
Your issue with with Jesus (Mt 13:12) and
judicial (judgmental) blindness by God; i.e., the ability they had to see is now taken away, and they cannot see (Jn 12:37-40, Ro 11:8-11).
So, they 'had an ability"?
 
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