To you it has been given to know...

[XrzrX]

It does; because the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation. Left alone, it will Save even the Trodden Soil...

Think about it; wouldn't Provisionism agree?

Either the Gospel is the Power to even the unregenerate.. or it's not. You are saying it is?

 

[Arial]

I know this is MacArthur's explanation. It falls way short. What 'light' were they 'accountable for'? No light remember? Not a 'little light', No Light. How twisted is this doctrine? Made blind, no possibility At All of seeing, responding.. and it's rubbed in by dangling 'a little light' they couldn't see anyway, to 'take away more light'. I mean, wow.

I have no idea what MacArthur's explanation is.

It falls way short. What 'light' were they 'accountable for'?

As per usual, according to human nature, people often read the Gospels (and pretty much everything else), by looking for themselves in the things that are said. A "What is this saying about me? Am I one of those, or am I one of these?"

Jesus was speaking to Jews. They, in general with a few exceptions, had already been given the light, through the Law and Prophets. The light in the case of the parables, was about the kingdom of God and who Christ is. The promised Messiah. We have in the OT a repeated pattern of the Jews rejecting the light they had been given, and it climaxes in rejecting Christ.

The parables open a window into the light that was contained in the Law and Prophets, concerning the kingdom of God, who enters that kingdom, and through whom. Only the Spirit gives the understanding of spiritual things, and these (the parables) were all spiritual principles. For the non-elect to see and still reject, brings greater judgment than simply not seeing.

That in no way reduces the responsibility or accountability for rejection from the unbelieving. All are held accountable before God, even the elect before he regenerates them. We are born in Adam.

The elect see the spiritual principles presented as parables. The passage is in the Bible. Jesus spoke the words:
Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: 'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.' For this people's heart has grown dull and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.""

They mean something, and they mean whatever Jesus meant. You must have some interpretation of them. What is it? And who is accountable for not seeing and hearing in the passage?

 

[ReverendRV]

I can't agree with your conclusion here. As with Christ, we are crucified, buried and resurrected... death does not dwell with life. We aren't "dead and alive". There is much disagreement as to the context of Paul's description of the 'old man', the context of his 'struggle'. There is no question the hardwire of the 'tent' persists under attack from this corporeal world.. but, our Nature, our heart, spirit and therefore true will and desires become aligned with the Spirit that dwells in us. God's Spirit doesn't share real estate with death. Our Mind is what is in process of conforming.. the ultimate 'radio tower' picking up an endless stream of chaos, temptation and confusion from a fallen world. THAT, is hard to tame.. but it's not 'the old man', it's the new man who finds himself the unwilling "receiver' of the radio of this world, who's playlist no longer resonates with us.

The Living Dead ~ by ReverndRV * November 2

Ephesians 2:1+2 ESV; And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

History is filled with the stories of Night Walkers. Vampires ruled the nights and people were afraid to go out in the evening. Later there were stories about Mummies coming to life thru the power of an ancient curse. Now our society is consumed by a different kind of Night Walker; Zombies, the walking dead. It’s not such a far-fetched prospect; the Bible talks about a few who have been raised from the Dead. None of these though were menacing figures; for instance, Lazarus was the friend of Jesus. ~ When Paul wrote these verses, he was talking about another kind of the living dead; you and me. There was no one else more alive than Adam and Eve but God said the day they ate fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would surely die. They did eat the fruit but to our surprise they lived for hundreds of years after that; even though a part of them did die that day. ~ They were the first walking dead in history…

Because of this, we are born as members of the walking dead. This may be hard to believe but if we met Adam before he Sinned, we would be frightened because of how alive he was; like when people in the Bible were frightened of Angels after they met them. Imagine being more afraid of the walking Living than of the walking dead? ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What would you call someone who Lied to you? A Liar, right? Have you ever Stolen ‘anything’? What would you call someone who Stole your car? A Thief, right? Have you Honored your father and mother? Did you ever give your mother a reason to cry? The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the Moral Law of God; the Ten Commandments. So far you have taken three bites out of the apple and you’ve learned what Good is; through being Evil. If God judged you by this Standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or go to Hell?

You’ve eaten from the same Tree as they did; to God you are a Night Walker! What you need is to be raised from the dead. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ is the only other person who is as alive as Adam and Eve, but he took the form of a servant and had no beauty that we should desire him. His Soul was attractive though because he was born Sinless, and he grew in Wisdom. Only he was Good enough to please God and to be the Savior of the world. He shed his blood on a Cross for the Remission of Sin, and was buried; but he arose from the grave as the Author of Life. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the risen Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to Church; and read the Bible. ~ We fear Death; as seen in our fascination with the Dead. Fear of the Living God is even greater; the beginning of Wisdom…

1st Samuel 2:6 NIV; "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

 

[Arial]

I can't agree with your conclusion here. As with Christ, we are crucified, buried and resurrected... death does not dwell with life. We aren't "dead and alive". There is much disagreement as to the context of Paul's description of the 'old man', the context of his 'struggle'. There is no question the hardwire of the 'tent' persists under attack from this corporeal world.. but, our Nature, our heart, spirit and therefore true will and desires become aligned with the Spirit that dwells in us. God's Spirit doesn't share real estate with death. Our Mind is what is in process of conforming.. the ultimate 'radio tower' picking up an endless stream of chaos, temptation and confusion from a fallen world. THAT, is hard to tame.. but it's not 'the old man', it's the new man who finds himself the unwilling "receiver' of the radio of this world, who's playlist no longer resonates with us.

The "old man" refers to who we were before. Regenerated though we may be, sometimes we act and think like we used to. Why, because we have not yet been glorifed---made immortal and uncorruptible----and we still live in the world, have our old flesh and its nature, and are in the world that is under the influence of the devil. We have been delivered from its power to condemn us, but sanctification by the Spirit working in us is ongoing.

 

[ReverendRV]

Either the Gospel is the Power to even the unregenerate.. or it's not. You are saying it is?

I am saying that...

The Trodden Soil has no power of it's own...

The Good Soil has no Power of it's own; if it did, that's Synergism. The Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation...

 

[XrzrX]

I have no idea what MacArthur's explanation is.

It's the one you've been taught.

As per usual, according to human nature, people often read the Gospels (and pretty much everything else), by looking for themselves in the things that are said. A "What is this saying about me? Am I one of those, or am I one of these?"

Jesus was speaking to Jews. They, in general with a few exceptions, had already been given the light, through the Law and Prophets. The light in the case of the parables, was about the kingdom of God and who Christ is. The promised Messiah. We have in the OT a repeated pattern of the Jews rejecting the light they had been given, and it climaxes in rejecting Christ.

The parables open a window into the light that was contained in the Law and Prophets, concerning the kingdom of God, who enters that kingdom, and through whom. Only the Spirit gives the understanding of spiritual things, and these (the parables) were all spiritual principles.

On the money, up to here...

For the non-elect to see and still reject, brings greater judgment than simply not seeing.

That in no way reduces the responsibility or accountability for rejection from the unbelieving. All are held accountable before God, even the elect before he regenerates them. We are born in Adam.

In your doctrine, it's redundant to 'pour on more judgement'. The people can't see, they were Created for destruction, specifically made blind.. no choice, no decision, it defies logic.

The elect see the spiritual principles presented as parables. The passage is in the Bible. Jesus spoke the words:
Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: 'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.' For this people's heart has grown dull and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.""

They mean something, and they mean whatever Jesus meant. You must have some interpretation of them. What is it? And who is accountable for not seeing and hearing in the passage?

First, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven,.. the 12 Disciples. He had a mission, need to know. "For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance..".
Those that "heard and learned from the Father" had been given a little, they were Sheep.. they were to be "given more".. Jesus. the ones that rejected the Father's teaching, therefore rejecting Him.. what little they had been given was taken. Blindness.. cursed. 70AD.
"Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them."
Reformed take this as 'He's making sure they don't see, to doubly judge them'..
It looks more to be "Unless they see and hear.. and I WOULD heal them".

 

[XrzrX]

The "old man" refers to who we were before. Regenerated though we may be, sometimes we act and think like we used to. Why, because we have not yet been glorifed---made immortal and uncorruptible----and we still live in the world, have our old flesh and its nature, and are in the world that is under the influence of the devil. We have been delivered from its power to condemn us, but sanctification by the Spirit working in us is ongoing.

I agree with the essence, sanctification in 'action' is progressive.. behavior, understanding. But, Sanctification as Identity, is a threshold experience. Set apart as Holy.. once, eternal. The bible does not state '2 natures' for man. Alive or Dead. Never both. Be that corporeal or spiritual.
@Arial As far as "Soil", again.. either the unregenerate can be saved or not. There's no way around the question.. if you state that the unregenerate cannot see the Truth.. period, there's no need to 'hide' the Truth.. period. It's 2+2=4.

 

[makesends]

Are you saying that there is a huge difference between creating confusion and obfuscating?

No, I was not saying that there is a huge difference. I was saying that I was trying to figure out to what you were referring.

However, since it may be to your benefit to be shown that synonymous words are not always interchangeable in each context:

Obfuscate:
1a: to throw into shadow : darken
b: to make obscure
obfuscate the issue
officials who … continue to obscure and obfuscate what happened
—Mary Carroll
2: confuse
obfuscate the reader


Confuse:
1: to disturb in mind or purpose : throw off
The directions she gave confused us.
2a: to make indistinct : blur
Stop confusing the issue.
b: to fail to differentiate from an often similar or related other
confuse money with comfort
Do not confuse the words "flaunt" and "flout."
c: to mix indiscriminately : jumble
Their arms, legs, and bodies were confused together, till they resembled … two serpents interlaced.
—Thomas Medwin
3: to make embarrassed : abash
4archaic : to bring to ruin



The question asked:
"Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?"

The word, "confuse", while synonymous, is not the same as, "obfuscate", in two ways, as you used it. First, in the OP, "Obfuscate", was in reference to the message, not in relation to the people. When you used the word, "confuse", you were referring to the idea of God confusing the people, not the message. One might say that God confused the people by obfuscating the message, but not the other way around. Second, the definitions are not interchangeable. Confusion may obscure things, but its meaning is not, "obscure".

@XrzrX was asking why God would make a message dark and hard to understand, if the unregenerate were already incapable of understanding.

 

[XrzrX]

No, I was not saying that there is a huge difference. I was saying that I was trying to figure out to what you were referring.

However, since it may be to your benefit to be shown that synonymous words are not always interchangeable in each context:

Obfuscate:
1a: to throw into shadow : darken
b: to make obscure
obfuscate the issue
officials who … continue to obscure and obfuscate what happened
—Mary Carroll
2: confuse
obfuscate the reader


Confuse:
1: to disturb in mind or purpose : throw off
The directions she gave confused us.
2a: to make indistinct : blur
Stop confusing the issue.
b: to fail to differentiate from an often similar or related other
confuse money with comfort
Do not confuse the words "flaunt" and "flout."
c: to mix indiscriminately : jumble
Their arms, legs, and bodies were confused together, till they resembled … two serpents interlaced.
—Thomas Medwin
3: to make embarrassed : abash
4archaic : to bring to ruin
The question asked:
"Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?"

The word, "confuse", while synonymous, is not the same as, "obfuscate", in two ways, as you used it. First, in the OP, "Obfuscate", was in reference to the message, not in relation to the people. When you used the word, "confuse", you were referring to the idea of God confusing the people, not the message. One might say that God confused the people by obfuscating the message, but not the other way around. Second, the definitions are not interchangeable. Confusion may obscure things, but its meaning is not, "obscure".

@XrzrX was asking why God would make a message dark and hard to understand, if the unregenerate were already incapable of understanding.

Tell him what's he's won Johnny!

 

[Arial]

I agree with the essence, sanctification in 'action' is progressive.. behavior, understanding. But, Sanctification as Identity, is a threshold experience. Set apart as Holy.. once, eternal. The bible does not state '2 natures' for man. Alive or Dead. Never both. Be that corporeal or spiritual.
@Arial As far as "Soil", again.. either the unregenerate can be saved or not. There's no way around the question.. if you state that the unregenerate cannot see the Truth.. period, there's no need to 'hide' the Truth.. period. It's 2+2=4.

Alive and dead are not human natures. "Nature" in this case refers to the type of being mankind is in Adam----a sinful being.

As I said in my original post in this thread, Jesus is not hiding the truth by using parables. Post #66.

 

[XrzrX]

Alive and dead are not human natures. "Nature" in this case refers to the type of being mankind is in Adam----a sinful being.

As I said in my original post in this thread, Jesus is not hiding the truth by using parables. Post #66.

So, you are asserting the 'purpose' is a greater judgment?

 

[ReverendRV]

@XrzrX was asking why God would make a message dark and hard to understand, if the unregenerate were already incapable of understanding.

It's not so much a question as to Why God darkens the Message; we should focus on 'that' God darkened the Message. It's like wondering Why a Wife cooked Sausage for breakfast; why not just eat it? It's what she Served...

God keeps some people from Believing the Gospel...

 

[XrzrX]

Alive and dead are not human natures. "Nature" in this case refers to the type of being mankind is in Adam----a sinful being.

As I said in my original post in this thread, Jesus is not hiding the truth by using parables. Post #66.

*And I agree, the 2 natures are either in Adam or in Christ... absolutely correct. So, you claim Believers are both in Adam and Christ?

 

[XrzrX]

It's not so much a question as to Why God darkens the Message; we should focus on 'that' God darkened the Message. It's like wondering Why a Wife cooked Sausage for breakfast; why not just eat it? It's what she Served...

God keeps some people from Believing the Gospel...

By creating them blind.. "And" obscuring the message?

 

[CrowCross]

Alright, but does that mean that if you have seen and heard and listened and thee lightbulb goes off and you pray to God and you develop a rock solid faith in Jesus and ask God to forgive you that God would turn his back?

If you have the ability to develop a rock solid faith in Jesus.....The Father has already been there before you had the "faith". That faith was a gift from God.

Where do you think Karla Fay Tucker is headed right now

Do you remember her or was she before your time?

She was found guilty of brutally murdering people... but had a true conversion though a jail house ministry
and went to her death in TX with a smile on her face. In love with Jesus.

If she was truly born again then she is in heaven.

Even Paul was a murderer from what i understand....he stood by while Stephen was being stoned to death. Where is Paul now?

If John 6:65 is accurate in what it means... the thief on the cross should never have been accepted by Jesus.

The Father granted the thief the ability to understand who Jesus was and believe.

 

[XrzrX]

If you have the ability to develop a rock solid faith in Jesus.....The Father has already been there before you had the "faith". That faith was a gift from God.


If she was truly born again then she is in heaven.

Even Paul was a murderer from what i understand....he stood by while Stephen was being stoned to death. Where is Paul now?

The Father granted the thief the ability to understand who Jesus was and believe.

I would suggest caution calling Paul a "murderer". By the spiritual definition of Jesus all men are, but.. Paul was acting under the auspices of what was lawful by his government. "Sanctioned".. so, we should be specific. He was a persecutor of the Church.

 

[Arial]

It's the one you've been taught.

God forbid anyone should be taught anything! That is not a valid reason for neglecting and rejecting what I said. There may be such a reason, but that is not it.

In your doctrine, it's redundant to 'pour on more judgement'. The people can't see, they were Created for destruction, specifically made blind.. no choice, no decision, it defies logic.

What does it say when Jesus is explaining why he speaks in parables? "To those who have, more will be given but to those who do not have , even what they have will be taken away." Those Jesus was speaking to had been given, as I said, in the Law and Prophets, before the incarnation. Now that very Messiah was standing before them. If they see him as Messiah, Savior, Son of God, and still reject him, is that not worse? Do you think the person who is morally "good" all there life, but comes under judgement anyway because they never accepted Christ, receives the same degree of judgment as does the one who openly rejects him?

And they were not "made" blind. It is the natural condition of mankind in Adam. I will get to the rest of the post later. I have things in the real world I need to take care of.

 

[ReverendRV]

By creating them blind.. "And" obscuring the message?

Yes...

Look at it like this...

We were of our father the devil. He knows we are Born spiritually dead. Even knowing this, he will carry the Gospel Seed away. Why? Because the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation; being blind is not enough to thwart the Gospel...

 

[makesends]

Simple question..
Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?

If people are born without the ability to see the truth, as Calvinists believe, again, why the need to "hide" anything... they CAN'T see anyway.

The inquiry is to explain what appears to be a massive contradiction in your doctrine. Thus far, no explanation that doesn't add even yet more contradiction.

@Eleanor referred to this in her post #100. I will try to elucidate:

God uses means to accomplish his ends. Your question has been asked by others in many different ways: "Why need the Calvinist do anything, if, elect, he is going to be what God intended all along anyway?", "Why the 'P' in TULIP? Aren't they going to Heaven anyway?", and on and on...

This is typical of the mindset and worldview of those who insist on self-determination. Without realizing that they do so, they attempt to put themselves on even causation with God. They think that what they do adds to what God does, instead of being part of what God does.

"Efficiency" is one of God's attributes. He wastes nothing. No act on his part is without effect, and every smallest effect is for a purpose. Thus, when he determined from before the foundation of the world to create a bride for the Son of God, and a dwelling place for the Spirit of God, and a people who together and individually would be with him for the praise of his glory, she being perfect in every way, full of detail and beauty, without spot or blemish, He was specific in what would accomplish this end, He did not "try this and that", but did everything with precision, to include "US trying this and that"—each action on our part with its own effects, to include changes in us. WE HAVE TO choose, do, be active—we can't help it—that much is obvious. But the fact that we do it points to the very creator and sustainer of the universe and of life itself and of very existence. We are not independent of God. Not even Satan is independent.

But look at the earthy, mundane way God has accomplished all he does. Why would we have wills? Why would he create mites and mosquitos? Why does refuse stink? Why does sound travel in the air, at STP, at 1,100 ft per sec? —I'm not talking here as a preacher might, of some poetic way that these speak of God's greatness, but of the day by day not-particularly-important things that have an effect on the hearers of the Gospel, and the doers of God's purposes.

Referring to the example above (the 'P' in TULIP): The perseverance of the saints is by the acts of the saints, by the every day work of the Spirit of God in them, and by external causes on them, by the will of God. It is so subtle that we think WE keep ourselves, not realizing the whole time that every detail is the work of God. THAT is why the perseverance of the saints is a SURE THING. Not because we are faithful, but because God will accomplish everything he set out to do.

So also, God obfuscates the message SO THAT the blind will not see and the deaf will not hear. The SURE FACT that they won't is the work of God. The very principles involved are accomplished by God's direct and indirect acts upon them. They are not independently unable to believe—they are not even independently anything at all. They do not have existence in and of themselves. Satan does not exist independently of God's power. We are mere creatures.

 

[ReverendRV]

Yes...

Look at it like this...

We were of our father the devil. He knows we are Born spiritually dead. Even knowing this, he will carry the Gospel Seed away. Why? Because the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation; being blind is not enough to thwart the Gospel...

The Birds ~ by ReverendRV * October 21

Matthew 13:4 GW; Some seeds were planted along the road, and birds came and devoured them.

Jesus used four examples of ground to teach about our Hearts and described them like different kinds of Soils which received a Farmers seed. One was freshly tilled soil, another was weedy soil, yet another was rocky soil, but one was the hardest soil of them all; the trodden path where nothing grew. Jesus would go on to explain that the seed symbolizes his Gospel and its effect on the different types of ‘Souls’. ~ You may have the hardest heart there is and the birds just carry the seed away, but I have news for you; Jesus went on to say that if the birds didn’t fly away with the Gospel seed, you WOULD believe and be Saved. The reason for this conversion is because of how dynamic the Gospel is! The Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation. It is the same power that God raised people from the dead with. You don’t stand a chance and have no control over it; the Gospel can penetrate your Heart no matter what. If you don’t like feeling out of control like this, wait until you hear the rest of the story; the worse is yet to come…

Jesus said that the birds are Satan stealing the Gospel seed from those who don’t understand, lest they believe and be Saved. There is a Spiritual War going on and we’re in the middle of a battle. If you don’t like being out of control regarding the Power of the Gospel, you really shouldn’t like having no control over Satan taking away your best chance in life! What you need is Understanding; let me help you. ~ Have you ever Lied? What name do you call a person if they tell Lies? Have you ever stolen something? What name do you call someone that steals? Are you beginning to understand? Jesus said that Hatred is Murder in the Heart, certainly a hard Heart has hated; right? Have you ever hated anyone? These are only three of the Ten Commandments, shall we go on? If God judged you by this standard would you be innocent or guilty? If you understand, you’d be guilty. Does this bother you?? God sends guilty Sinners to an eternal Hell; but you don’t have to go. You can hang up a scarecrow to keep the birds away…

Jesus was hung on a Cross like a scarecrow. The reason for this was so that he could receive the Wrath of God for Sins he never committed. Jesus lived his whole life and never Sinned by breaking any of God’s Laws. This made him like a spotless lamb whose fleece is white as snow. Jesus gladly gave up his life and shed his blood so that we wouldn’t have to go through this as punishment for our Sins. He died and was buried in a borrowed tomb, but rose from the dead after three calendar days. He conquered death and the grave, and after forty days he ascended to Heaven where he awaits the day he’ll bring us to himself. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus as our Risen Lord and Savior, without our tilling the ground. Repent and go to a Church that teaches the Gospel and the Bible. ~ Alfred Hitchcock made a horror film called ‘The Birds’. Nature began to turn on Mankind and the fowls of the air started to attack. No eye or ear was safe from them and many would lose their lives. Stay close to Jesus and you will be safe…

Matthew 13:18 KJV; But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.