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To you it has been given to know...

Alright, but does that mean that if you have seen and heard and listened and thee lightbulb goes off and you pray to God and you develop a rock solid faith in Jesus and ask God to forgive you that God would turn his back?

Where do you think Karla Fay Tucker is headed right now

Do you remember her or was she before your time?

She was found guilty of brutally murdering people... but had a true conversion though a jail house ministry
and went to her death in TX with a smile on her face. In love with Jesus.

If John 6:65 is accurate in what it means... the thief on the cross should never have been accepted by Jesus.
I don't know where to go with all that...perhaps you were thinking out loud.....but as to the thief on the cross the Father gave him the ability to realize who Jesus was. If God didn't give him the ability he would have died and went to hell.
 
Simple question..
Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?
Hi XrzrX,

I've read some of the first page of discussion, but I have not read the rest. In post #3 you listed 3 verses, "Matt 13:11/Mk 4:11/Lk 8:10."

However, your opening post here is also referencing other verses that Calvinists operate from. You bring up "totally incapable of understanding anyway" Am I guessing correctly that you are getting this from 1 Cor 2:14? "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row before I give any substantive response.
 
Makes a lot of difference, actually, but I was just wondering what you were talking about.

Are you saying that there is a huge difference between creating confusion and obfuscating?
 
You claim David was worried about God taking the spirit from him. I say, David was confessing his sins, he was convicted and prompted by the Holy Spirit, he was repentant and trusting in Christ, his Saviour, he was born again, he was a justified converted believer.

You speak of not being permanently indwelt as if you know these things. But yet, scripture does not seem to agree with you. For example, your familiar with John Ch:3?


Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;this man came to Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is bornagain he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone whobelieves will have eternal life in Him. John 3.

If it is according to you and your teachings, why did Jesus say to Nicodemus, "You should have known this. You should know that you need to be born of the spirit." :10


Yet, we see in John 7:39,
But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So what you have is a mess. In John 7, you have scripture saying the spirit is not yet given, but in John 3, you have Jesus saying to Nicodemus, being a teacher, that he should have known that one has to be born again and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, etc...


Yes, there is this newness to Pentecost.
To clarify a couple things, my mention of where I've heard your take before was more for my own catalogue.. I could have kept that to myself, but, for the sake of relevance I mentioned it, and you confirmed by the verse you used.. John 3, that specific argument, using Nico I've only heard once before by a 'Messianic Jew', she used the very argument. So, it was the rarity and specificity I thought salient. I've become highly attuned to these prooftext arguments because they are talking points (exact) of a ministry called 119 Ministries that promulgate heretical Legalism. So, I'm just keeping the ducks in a row. But, to your point (and their point), Jesus suggested Nico 'should know' of this reality, not because it had been 'given' as of yet.. but rather, because it was part and parcel of what I would term as the 'Millennial' prophesies (Jer 32:39, Ezek 11:19 etc) that a "teacher" should have known. This doesn't indicate that it HAD been given, but that it was to be Expected. And, speaks to the overarching issue.. that even "teachers of Israel" were Not watching for the right things, which played out as we know, not well for 'teachers of Israel'. And it goes deeper, because there are 2 realities here.. HAD 'the teachers of' Israel watched and seen, 'known' what they should have, these 'Millennial' prophesies would have been, but, because God is so amazing, within all these same prophesies.. which 'could' have been fulfilled by obedience, were embedded Another way to be fulfilled.. perfectly, lawfully, seamlessly even in spite of disobedience. And they were.. instead of by Israel at the Triumphal Entry, by the World at Pentecost. But, the problem we have here is that Reformed theology can't allow for any suggestion of a 'prevenient grace' and necessitates that 'permanent sealing/indwelling" was present in OT Covenant as well. I was genuinely confused as to why you would share this particular doctrinal position with a Judaizing theology, but you have elucidated that for me and I thank you.
 
To clarify a couple things, my mention of where I've heard your take before was more for my own catalogue.. I could have kept that to myself, but, for the sake of relevance I mentioned it, and you confirmed by the verse you used.. John 3, that specific argument, using Nico I've only heard once before by a 'Messianic Jew', she used the very argument. So, it was the rarity and specificity I thought salient. I've become highly attuned to these prooftext arguments because they are talking points (exact) of a ministry called 119 Ministries that promulgate heretical Legalism. So, I'm just keeping the ducks in a row. But, to your point (and their point), Jesus suggested Nico 'should know' of this reality, not because it had been 'given' as of yet.. but rather, because it was part and parcel of what I would term as the 'Millennial' prophesies (Jer 32:39, Ezek 11:19 etc) that a "teacher" should have known. This doesn't indicate that it HAD been given, but that it was to be Expected. And, speaks to the overarching issue.. that even "teachers of Israel" were Not watching for the right things, which played out as we know, not well for 'teachers of Israel'. And it goes deeper, because there are 2 realities here.. HAD 'the teachers of' Israel watched and seen, 'known' what they should have, these 'Millennial' prophesies would have been, but, because God is so amazing, within all these same prophesies.. which 'could' have been fulfilled by obedience, were embedded Another way to be fulfilled.. perfectly, lawfully, seamlessly even in spite of disobedience. And they were.. instead of by Israel at the Triumphal Entry, by the World at Pentecost. But, the problem we have here is that Reformed theology can't allow for any suggestion of a 'prevenient grace' and necessitates that 'permanent sealing/indwelling" was present in OT Covenant as well. I was genuinely confused as to why you would share this particular doctrinal position with a Judaizing theology, but you have elucidated that for me and I thank you.
They knew all along! ~ by ReverendRV * November 15

John 3:2 ESV
; This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”

Isn’t it interesting what some people know, but they don’t want it to get out that they know it? If it got out, there may be a risk involved and something precious could be lost. ~ Nicodemus was a Ruler from the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee who led the Religious establishment in Jerusalem. He came to Jesus at night and let the cat out of the bag; they know Jesus was sent from God, and the reason they know is because they’ve authenticated his Miracles. This meant those Miracles may have just as well been a Sign from their Maker; much like a tag sewn in the collar of a shirt; naming the brand. Nicodemus may have been sent to investigate; or maybe to see for himself…

On another day when there was a large crowd around Jesus on the road, a Ruler from the local Synagogue whose name was Jairus knelt down at the feet of Jesus. He pleaded with him for the life of his daughter, who was at the point of death. Nicodemus came to Jesus at night but Jairus came to him in the day for all the town to see; he indeed risked much. It’s been a long tradition in America that the President never bow to a foreign leader; Jairus knelt at the feet of Jesus! As part of the established Religion, Jairus knew that Jesus was sent from God. His risk may have been greater than that of Nicodemus but even Jairus didn’t risk all; he knew that Jesus was sent from God. Whatever he lost that day, he gained by receiving his daughter back from the dead…

When Jesus was brought up before the Sanhedrin for the charge of Blasphemy, their Council discussed his fate; even acknowledging that Jesus certainly preformed Miracles. Caiaphas said that because of the Civil uproar over Jesus, it would be better for one man to die than all their people perish at the hands of the Romans. Caiaphas prophesied earlier in the year that Jesus would die for the world; they knew! ~ Nicodemus and Jairus risked much but did not risk all; they knew. Though Caiaphas knew, he risked all by not coming to Christ; this condemned him…

Adam and Eve Sinned in the Garden of Eden and since then, all have Sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God by Lying, Stealing and Hating. God is Just and Holy, he sends Sinners to Hell as punishment for Sin. But you don’t have to go there because God is also Love; so much so that he sent his only Son Jesus Christ to be the Sinless sacrifice which Atones for our Sin. Jesus died on a Roman Cross, was buried for three days, and rose from the dead as another Sign; one that says he is God! We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works of Merit lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God, and start going to your local Evangelical Church; one which loves the Bible. Now when God looks at you, he will see a Sign; one that looks like his Son. ~ The Bible says everyone knows there is a God but suppresses the truth, turning astray. Don’t be like the Pharisees and suppress what you know. If you need more, seek and you will find; I bet you didn’t know this until now…

John 11:47-48; Then the chief priests and Pharisees convened a council to discuss the situation. “What are we going to do?” they asked each other. “For this man certainly does miracles. If we let him alone the whole nation will follow him—and then the Roman army will come and kill us and take over the Jewish government.”
 
That is not what parables do.

They are a form of judgement on those who had already hardened their hearts. Jesus wasn't hiding truth from innocent seekers. He was withholding clarity from those who persistently rejected clearer revelation, Notice a great many are directed at the Pharisees, and all are spoken to the Jews. They don't want to see and he speaks in a way that confirms their blindness.

It has also been posited that it is a mercy to prevent greater judgment. It limited the light they were accountable for.

Parables both reveal and conceal. They are windows into the kingdom to those who were of the elect. And mirrors reflecting spiritual deafness and blindness to those who are not. Rather than causing blindness, they reveal it.

Jesus' purpose in speaking in parables was not to present the unregenerate from understanding something they otherwise would grasp, but to expose and confirm that spiritual blindness as judgement and to draw in those who had been granted by the Spirit to understand.
I know this is MacArthur's explanation. It falls way short. What 'light' were they 'accountable for'? No light remember? Not a 'little light', No Light. How twisted is this doctrine? Made blind, no possibility At All of seeing, responding.. and it's rubbed in by dangling 'a little light' they couldn't see anyway, to 'take away more light'. I mean, wow.
 
They knew all along! ~ by ReverendRV * November 15

John 3:2 ESV
; This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”

Isn’t it interesting what some people know, but they don’t want it to get out that they know it? If it got out, there may be a risk involved and something precious could be lost. ~ Nicodemus was a Ruler from the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee who led the Religious establishment in Jerusalem. He came to Jesus at night and let the cat out of the bag; they know Jesus was sent from God, and the reason they know is because they’ve authenticated his Miracles. This meant those Miracles may have just as well been a Sign from their Maker; much like a tag sewn in the collar of a shirt; naming the brand. Nicodemus may have been sent to investigate; or maybe to see for himself…

On another day when there was a large crowd around Jesus on the road, a Ruler from the local Synagogue whose name was Jairus knelt down at the feet of Jesus. He pleaded with him for the life of his daughter, who was at the point of death. Nicodemus came to Jesus at night but Jairus came to him in the day for all the town to see; he indeed risked much. It’s been a long tradition in America that the President never bow to a foreign leader; Jairus knelt at the feet of Jesus! As part of the established Religion, Jairus knew that Jesus was sent from God. His risk may have been greater than that of Nicodemus but even Jairus didn’t risk all; he knew that Jesus was sent from God. Whatever he lost that day, he gained by receiving his daughter back from the dead…

When Jesus was brought up before the Sanhedrin for the charge of Blasphemy, their Council discussed his fate; even acknowledging that Jesus certainly preformed Miracles. Caiaphas said that because of the Civil uproar over Jesus, it would be better for one man to die than all their people perish at the hands of the Romans. Caiaphas prophesied earlier in the year that Jesus would die for the world; they knew! ~ Nicodemus and Jairus risked much but did not risk all; they knew. Though Caiaphas knew, he risked all by not coming to Christ; this condemned him…

Adam and Eve Sinned in the Garden of Eden and since then, all have Sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God by Lying, Stealing and Hating. God is Just and Holy, he sends Sinners to Hell as punishment for Sin. But you don’t have to go there because God is also Love; so much so that he sent his only Son Jesus Christ to be the Sinless sacrifice which Atones for our Sin. Jesus died on a Roman Cross, was buried for three days, and rose from the dead as another Sign; one that says he is God! We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works of Merit lest we should boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God, and start going to your local Evangelical Church; one which loves the Bible. Now when God looks at you, he will see a Sign; one that looks like his Son. ~ The Bible says everyone knows there is a God but suppresses the truth, turning astray. Don’t be like the Pharisees and suppress what you know. If you need more, seek and you will find; I bet you didn’t know this until now…

John 11:47-48; Then the chief priests and Pharisees convened a council to discuss the situation. “What are we going to do?” they asked each other. “For this man certainly does miracles. If we let him alone the whole nation will follow him—and then the Roman army will come and kill us and take over the Jewish government.”
Some good observations. In your Gospel passage though, I would suggest "repenting of sins" is not the Gospel. Acknowledging you are a sinner is. Also, God doesn't 'see Jesus' when He looks at us. Jesus is God... He sees us just fine. God doesn't wear 'Jesus glasses', doesn't 'fool Himself'. He sees us EXACTLY as we are.. and His Blood redeems us in His sight. "Wretched worm" doctrine doesn't help anyone. Living to Christ does.
 
There could be multiple reasons. One reason might be that he does not want some to understand. Another reason might be to expose their inability (or sinfulness).

I am not sure this is a Jesus-only thing. The Jews had the Tanakh for centuries so they could have understood what Jesus was saying just about anytime they wanted, had they wanted. Most of what Jesus taught can be found in the OT. The gospels are not something new so much as something restored. Jesus is teaching the original meaning, correcting the adulterated alternative, restoring the truth to words that had previously been spoken.

Jesus answers the op's question in those passages. They are not given the ability lest they repent and be healed (turn and be saved).


Help me out. What's the purpose of the inquiry?
The inquiry is to explain what appears to be a massive contradiction in your doctrine. Thus far, no explanation that doesn't add even yet more contradiction.
 
Some good observations. In your Gospel passage though, I would suggest "repenting of sins" is not the Gospel. Acknowledging you are a sinner is. Also, God doesn't 'see Jesus' when He looks at us. Jesus is God... He sees us just fine. God doesn't wear 'Jesus glasses', doesn't 'fool Himself'. He sees us EXACTLY as we are.. and His Blood redeems us in His sight. "Wretched worm" doctrine doesn't help anyone. Living to Christ does.
Dorian Gray ~ by ReverendRV * March 18

Ephesians 4:22 KJV; That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


Have you ever wondered why a Christian may not seem to behave very much different than you? The Bible says that the Christian should be Conformed into the image of Jesus, but often it appears that the believer is more conformed to the image of the World. The Apostle Paul was very concerned about this, even in his own person. Paul said that when he did the bad things he didn’t want to do, it was remaining Sin within him that did it. As we can see, Paul would go on to give this remaining Sin a proper name; the ‘Old Man’. The reason I decided to write this Gospel Tract is because I have just been diagnosed with Diabetes. The old Man within me has led me to this through Gluttony, but when I confessed this in Church I told them that my identity would not be Brother Miller the Diabetic; the Old Man inside me is the Diabetic. This brought to my Mind an image of what the Old Man must look like; a degenerate, diseased, cowering old man…

In the story called ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray’, we see a similar portrait of the Old Man. The Novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Basil is very impressed by Dorian's beauty and becomes infatuated with him, thinking his beauty is responsible for a new mode in his art. Dorian meets Lord Henry Wotton, a friend of Basil, and becomes enthralled by Lord Henry's world view. Espousing a new Hedonism, Henry suggests the only things worth pursuing in life are beauty and fulfilment of the senses. Realizing that one day his beauty will fade, Dorian expresses a desire to sell his Soul to ensure the portrait Basil painted would age rather than he. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, and when he subsequently pursues a life of Debauchery, the portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act had upon his Soul. Each Sin displayed as a disfigurement of his form, or through a sign of aging. ~ No wonder the Christian can seem no different than the world; but in saying this we find out the true condition of the World. Have you ever told a Lie? What does your portrait look like? Have you also lived the Life of Hedonism? Perhaps you clean up well but inside you are full of dead mans bones! The bad news is that in your heart, you are the Old Man; there is no New Man within to wrestle against the Old Man. If God judged you, would you be innocent? Or will you be guilty and Hellbound?

Dorian Gray grew to hate the Old Man inside the portrait. He had a good idea when he tried to clean up his act; but it was all in vain; his portrait still continued to age. Dorian stabbed the portrait with a knife; another good idea but he used the wrong weapon. Dorian aged and died in his Sins, and the portrait returned to its youthful appearance. ~ The only instrument which can save us from our Old Man is the nail of a Cross. Jesus is the GodMan who was born of a Virgin and lived a perfect life which pleased God his Father. There is no Remission of Sin without the shedding of blood. Jesus died on the Cross as the sacrifice for the Sin of the world; appeasing the wrath of God. Have Faith in Jesus Christ who arose from the grave and ascended to Heaven. Your old man will remain, but he will be nailed to the Cross of Christ. When God looks at your portrait, in its frame he will see Jesus Christ in you; the hope of eternal Life. Don’t wait until it’s too late and the only ‘poor trait’ God can see in your frame is the portrait of your Old Man…

Romans 6:6 KJV; Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 
God's double guard against the reprobate. . .so that he has all the glory for those who do see.
God needs a "double guard against the reprobate"? Does this really sound proper to you?
 
God needs a "double guard against the reprobate"? Does this really sound proper to you?
Is there anything in Scripture that is contrary to it?

Consider Pharoah, whose heart was already hardened when God also hardened it so that he was not able to repent of his own hardness.
 
God needs a "double guard against the reprobate"? Does this really sound proper to you?
It does; because the Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation. Left alone, it will Save even the Trodden Soil...

Think about it; wouldn't Provisionism agree?
 
Dorian Gray ~ by ReverendRV * March 18

Ephesians 4:22 KJV; That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


Have you ever wondered why a Christian may not seem to behave very much different than you? The Bible says that the Christian should be Conformed into the image of Jesus, but often it appears that the believer is more conformed to the image of the World. The Apostle Paul was very concerned about this, even in his own person. Paul said that when he did the bad things he didn’t want to do, it was remaining Sin within him that did it. As we can see, Paul would go on to give this remaining Sin a proper name; the ‘Old Man’. The reason I decided to write this Gospel Tract is because I have just been diagnosed with Diabetes. The old Man within me has led me to this through Gluttony, but when I confessed this in Church I told them that my identity would not be Brother Miller the Diabetic; the Old Man inside me is the Diabetic. This brought to my Mind an image of what the Old Man must look like; a degenerate, diseased, cowering old man…

In the story called ‘The Picture of Dorian Gray’, we see a similar portrait of the Old Man. The Novel tells of a young man named Dorian Gray, the subject of a painting by artist Basil Hallward. Basil is very impressed by Dorian's beauty and becomes infatuated with him, thinking his beauty is responsible for a new mode in his art. Dorian meets Lord Henry Wotton, a friend of Basil, and becomes enthralled by Lord Henry's world view. Espousing a new Hedonism, Henry suggests the only things worth pursuing in life are beauty and fulfilment of the senses. Realizing that one day his beauty will fade, Dorian expresses a desire to sell his Soul to ensure the portrait Basil painted would age rather than he. Dorian's wish is fulfilled, and when he subsequently pursues a life of Debauchery, the portrait serves as a reminder of the effect each act had upon his Soul. Each Sin displayed as a disfigurement of his form, or through a sign of aging. ~ No wonder the Christian can seem no different than the world; but in saying this we find out the true condition of the World. Have you ever told a Lie? What does your portrait look like? Have you also lived the Life of Hedonism? Perhaps you clean up well but inside you are full of dead mans bones! The bad news is that in your heart, you are the Old Man; there is no New Man within to wrestle against the Old Man. If God judged you, would you be innocent? Or will you be guilty and Hellbound?

Dorian Gray grew to hate the Old Man inside the portrait. He had a good idea when he tried to clean up his act; but it was all in vain; his portrait still continued to age. Dorian stabbed the portrait with a knife; another good idea but he used the wrong weapon. Dorian aged and died in his Sins, and the portrait returned to its youthful appearance. ~ The only instrument which can save us from our Old Man is the nail of a Cross. Jesus is the GodMan who was born of a Virgin and lived a perfect life which pleased God his Father. There is no Remission of Sin without the shedding of blood. Jesus died on the Cross as the sacrifice for the Sin of the world; appeasing the wrath of God. Have Faith in Jesus Christ who arose from the grave and ascended to Heaven. Your old man will remain, but he will be nailed to the Cross of Christ. When God looks at your portrait, in its frame he will see Jesus Christ in you; the hope of eternal Life. Don’t wait until it’s too late and the only ‘poor trait’ God can see in your frame is the portrait of your Old Man…

Romans 6:6 KJV; Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I can't agree with your conclusion here. As with Christ, we are crucified, buried and resurrected... death does not dwell with life. We aren't "dead and alive". There is much disagreement as to the context of Paul's description of the 'old man', the context of his 'struggle'. There is no question the hardwire of the 'tent' persists under attack from this corporeal world.. but, our Nature, our heart, spirit and therefore true will and desires become aligned with the Spirit that dwells in us. God's Spirit doesn't share real estate with death. Our Mind is what is in process of conforming.. the ultimate 'radio tower' picking up an endless stream of chaos, temptation and confusion from a fallen world. THAT, is hard to tame.. but it's not 'the old man', it's the new man who finds himself the unwilling "receiver' of the radio of this world, who's playlist no longer resonates with us.
 
Is there anything in Scripture that is contrary to it?

Consider Pharoah, whose heart was already hardened when God also hardened it so that he was not able to repent of his own hardness.
I think the case of Pharoah speaks to my point rather than yours. Think about it. God needs no "guard" against anything or anyone. We do.
 
I think the case of Pharoah speaks to my point rather than yours. Think about it. God needs no "guard" against anything or anyone. We do.
Guard has the meaning there of "fence."
God fenced Pharaoh in his own hardness so that he could not repent.
 
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