To you it has been given to know...

[Carbon]

Just gonna throw it out,

Okay, as you wish.

that I have seen your take on this before..

You have? Where and when?

rarely, but it's not orthodox.

I disagree with your beliefs on this. They are not in line with scripture, this is plain to see.

I've seen both Hebrew Roots and RCs (*and other Calvinists) use the argument you are here.. know that it's not orthodox Protestant belief.

Thanks for your opinion. I pray you will learn to keep things in scripture.

 

[XrzrX]

Okay, as you wish.

You have? Where and when?

Again, I have seen RCs, Hebrew Roots and Calvinists make the same claim you are making, that OT believers had the SAME indwelling.. it is Not orthodox, nor is it correct.

I disagree with your beliefs on this. They are not in line with scripture, this is plain to see.

They are perfectly in line.. which is why it is the orthodox position.

Thanks for your opinion. I pray you will learn to keep things in scripture.

Saul was abandoned by the Spirit, which he had previously had. Samson was also, David begged for Him to not leave, he knew it was possible. NT believers... "He will give you another Advocate, that He may be with you FOREVER;..". I'm not pulling this out of thin air.. it's biblical.

 

[Carbon]

Again, I have seen RCs, Hebrew Roots and Calvinists make the same claim you are making, that OT believers had the SAME indwelling.. it is Not orthodox, nor is it correct.

I really dont care who else you have seen make the same argument. Why should I care? Why should I believe you? I haven't seen them. You're discussing with me, why not stay focused on what I am saying? Is it too difficult to stay focused on one thing and one person?

They are perfectly in line.. which is why it is the orthodox position.

I disagree.

If that's too difficult for you, then run along.

 

[XrzrX]

I really dont care who else you have seen make the same argument. Why should I care? Why should I believe you? I haven't seen them. You're discussing with me, why not stay focused on what I am saying? Is it too difficult to stay focused on one thing and one person?

I disagree.

If that's too difficult for you, then run along.

This one is easy to parse. Where does it say in the OT anyone is permanently indwelled?

 

[Carbon]

This one is easy to parse. Where does it say in the OT anyone is permanently indwelled?

You claim David was worried about God taking the spirit from him. I say, David was confessing his sins, he was convicted and prompted by the Holy Spirit, he was repentant and trusting in Christ, his Saviour, he was born again, he was a justified converted believer.

You speak of not being permanently indwelt as if you know these things. But yet, scripture does not seem to agree with you. For example, your familiar with John Ch:3?


Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;this man came to Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is bornagain he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone whobelieves will have eternal life in Him. John 3.

If it is according to you and your teachings, why did Jesus say to Nicodemus, "You should have known this. You should know that you need to be born of the spirit." :10


Yet, we see in John 7:39, But this He said in reference to the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So what you have is a mess. In John 7, you have scripture saying the spirit is not yet given, but in John 3, you have Jesus saying to Nicodemus, being a teacher, that he should have known that one has to be born again and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, etc...


Yes, there is this newness to Pentecost.

 

[Arial]

Simple question..
Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?

That is not what parables do.

They are a form of judgement on those who had already hardened their hearts. Jesus wasn't hiding truth from innocent seekers. He was withholding clarity from those who persistently rejected clearer revelation, Notice a great many are directed at the Pharisees, and all are spoken to the Jews. They don't want to see and he speaks in a way that confirms their blindness.

It has also been posited that it is a mercy to prevent greater accountability. It limited the light they were accountable for.

Parables both reveal and conceal. They are windows into the kingdom to those who were of the elect. And mirrors reflecting spiritual deafness and blindness to those who are not. Rather than causing blindness, they reveal it.

Jesus' purpose in speaking in parables was not to present the unregenerate from understanding something they otherwise would grasp, but to expose and confirm that spiritual blindness as judgement and to draw in those who had been granted by the Spirit to understand.

 

[Josheb]

Simple question..
Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?

There could be multiple reasons. One reason might be that he does not want some to understand. Another reason might be to expose their inability (or sinfulness).

I am not sure this is a Jesus-only thing. The Jews had the Tanakh for centuries so they could have understood what Jesus was saying just about anytime they wanted, had they wanted. Most of what Jesus taught can be found in the OT. The gospels are not something new so much as something restored. Jesus is teaching the original meaning, correcting the adulterated alternative, restoring the truth to words that had previously been spoken.

Matt 13:11/Mk 4:11/Lk 8:10

Jesus answers the op's question in those passages. They are not given the ability lest they repent and be healed (turn and be saved).


Help me out. What's the purpose of the inquiry?

 

[EarlyActs]

Simple question..
Why would Jesus use parabolic language to obfuscate a Message that the unregenerate were totally incapable of understanding anyway?

It's because there were already so many warnings in the OT about what would happen, including the clear indication of Dan 9 that Israel would be crushed, as a nation. Imagine being a part of that generation and knowing that.

Isaiah: "All day long, I have held out my hands to this troublesome and hostile people."

I don't find the intent to be confusing. He said those who believed would understand the Kingdom; those who failed to believe would not

 

[makesends]

No friend, not according to scripture. Don't fool yourself, the heart is deceitful. Until we are glorified, we will have these issues.

You're obviously not going to listen to me, so I'll give you scripture. Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Psalm 139:23-24.


No, we cannot know others' hearts either. You got that right. Do you believe you are an exception?
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9.

Agreed. It is one thing to realize that I am not the judge of my own heart and deeds, but more, I can't even know my OWN heart. All I know is what my conscience tells me about it, and that is usually useful, but that is not God. In spite of all my efforts to the contrary, my emotions rule the day, in opposition to, or in accordance with, my desires —I hardly know whether in opposition or in accordance, sometimes. I judge myself sincere and the next moment, I have grabbed the reins again. I lie to myself all day long. I fear to guess why.

 

[makesends]

I am not sure this is a Jesus-only thing. The Jews had the Tanakh for centuries so they could have understood what Jesus was saying just about anytime they wanted, had they wanted. Most of what Jesus taught can be found in the OT. The gospels are not something new so much as something restored. Jesus is teaching the original meaning, correcting the adulterated alternative, restoring the truth to words that had previously been spoken.

AMEN! Well said.

 

[makesends]

It's because there were already so many warnings in the OT about what would happen, including the clear indication of Dan 9 that Israel would be crushed, as a nation. Imagine being a part of that generation and knowing that.

Isaiah: "All day long, I have held out my hands to this troublesome and hostile people."

I don't find the intent to be confusing. He said those who believed would understand the Kingdom; those who failed to believe would not

"...those who failed to believe"? Why not say, those who refused to believe?

But who said the intent was confusing?

 

[makesends]

There is no way to rationalize this.. it's redundant, and contradictory to any iteration of Calvinist doctrine.

Explain

 

[Rella]

That is not what parables do.

The reason according to Jesus.

Matthew 13:10-16 NKJV
​

The Purpose of Parables​

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

16. But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

They are a form of judgement on those who had already hardened their hearts. Jesus wasn't hiding truth from innocent seekers. He was withholding clarity from those who persistently rejected clearer revelation, Notice a great many are directed at the Pharisees, and all are spoken to the Jews. They don't want to see and he speaks in a way that confirms their blindness.

It has also been posited that it is a mercy to prevent greater judgment. It limited the light they were accountable for.

Parables both reveal and conceal. They are windows into the kingdom to those who were of the elect. And mirrors reflecting spiritual deafness and blindness to those who are not. Rather than causing blindness, they reveal it.

Jesus' purpose in speaking in parables was not to present the unregenerate from understanding something they otherwise would grasp, but to expose and confirm that spiritual blindness as judgement and to draw in those who had been granted by the Spirit to understand.

 

[Carbon]

Explain

You dont expect explanations, do you, from those obsessed with Calvinism?

 

[Eleanor]

If people are born without the ability to see the truth, as Calvinists believe, again, why the need to "hide" anything... they CAN'T see anyway.

God's double guard against the reprobate. . .so that he has all the glory for those who do see.

 

[Rella]

Apparently they have ears to hear. Those who remain unregenerate don't.

Perhaps it repells those who don't have a heart for Jesus.

Parables have a way of revealing our spiritual conditions......That's my take.

Matthew, 13: 13-15

An Explanation for Parables​

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

You shall keep on listening, but shall not understand;
And you shall keep on looking, ]but shall not perceive;

15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’


There are those, obviously that are not to understand .

But , if they, of themselves do not have some free will, then how could they see and hear
and make a decision for themselves by seeing and/or hearing that necessitated a precaution made in Isaiah and also in Matthew, regarding Parables to stop them.

I have known forum folk who read and cannot understander a simple scripture sentence when it
is presented to them. I am sure we all have. Doesn't it make you wonder?

There is certainly more to things then we will ever know this side of eternity.

 

[CrowCross]

Matthew, 13: 13-15

An Explanation for Parables​

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14 And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,

You shall keep on listening, but shall not understand;
And you shall keep on looking, ]but shall not perceive;

15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their heart, and return,
And I would heal them.’


There are those, obviously that are not to understand .

But , if they, of themselves do not have some free will, then how could they see and hear
and make a decision for themselves by seeing and/or hearing that necessitated a precaution made in Isaiah and also in Matthew, regarding Parables to stop them.

John 6:65 tells us you can't come to Jesus unless the Father allows it.
John 6:65....And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

This would mean you don't have free will to choose Jesus unless the Father grants it.

I have known forum folk who read and cannot understander a simple scripture sentence when it
is presented to them. I am sure we all have. Doesn't it make you wonder?

There is certainly more to things then we will ever know this side of eternity.

 

[CrowCross]

This one is easy to parse. Where does it say in the OT anyone is permanently indwelled?

I don't think it does.

Those who were indwelled by the Holy Spirit in the OTwere the priest, prophets etc. Not the everyday man......and it wasn't until pentecost that men became permanently indwelled.

 

[EarlyActs]

"...those who failed to believe"? Why not say, those who refused to believe?

But who said the intent was confusing?

The OP used the term obfuscate as though Christ meant to do so.

 

[Rella]

John 6:65 tells us you can't come to Jesus unless the Father allows it.
John 6:65....And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

This would mean you don't have free will to choose Jesus unless the Father grants it.

Alright, but does that mean that if you have seen and heard and listened and thee lightbulb goes off and you pray to God and you develop a rock solid faith in Jesus and ask God to forgive you that God would turn his back?

Where do you think Karla Fay Tucker is headed right now

Do you remember her or was she before your time?

She was found guilty of brutally murdering people... but had a true conversion though a jail house ministry
and went to her death in TX with a smile on her face. In love with Jesus.

If John 6:65 is accurate in what it means... the thief on the cross should never have been accepted by Jesus.