To you it has been given to know...

[Carbon]

It's clear in the bible. What you are referencing is "they were filled with the Spirit", in the OT when they prophesied or did battle.. and many take that as 'indwelling', it's not the same. Pentecost was the "Giving of the Spirit".. and Paul enumerates how it's different, we are become the Temple of God.. OT saints were not, clearly as there was another Temple. Never in the OT does it say, as it does in the NT that the Spirit 'dwells' in Believers, it is a "New Creation" that 'angels long to peer into'. It is drastically different, and I'm surprised you don't know this. It's foundational brother.
*To be clear, OT saints were 'Saved'.. but not indwelled, yet.

Well, I told you what the truth is. Believe as you like, I won't go back and forth on it. Salvation is the same; Abraham is just one example. If anyone starts a thread on this, great. I think you have been misled. Context helps harmonize these doctrines.

 

[XrzrX]

Well, I told you what the truth is. Believe as you like, I won't go back and forth on it. Salvation is the same; Abraham is just one example. If anyone starts a thread on this, great. I think you have been misled. Context helps harmonize these doctrines.

Not claiming they weren't saved, and yes.. same salvation. Abraham saw Jesus, David saw Jesus, Job saw Jesus.. same salvation. But the giving of the Spirit, as indwelling was Pentecost. This is Sunday School 101.

*"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you..." Jn 16:7

 

[Carbon]

Not claiming they weren't saved, and yes.. same salvation. Abraham saw Jesus, David saw Jesus, Job saw Jesus.. same salvation. But the giving of the Spirit, as indwelling was Pentecost. This is Sunday School 101.

*"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you..." Jn 16:7

You're using that verse out of context. Here is a better context for it:
While Jesus was on earth, he could be bodily present but in one place at one time. Yet, for in order to save men according to the divine plan of salvation, it was needful that the Holy Spirit, who could be in all places, be here with us, who could be with all ministers, and who could, at the same time, apply the work of Christ to people in all parts of the earth.

 

[XrzrX]

You're using that verse out of context. Here is a better context for it:
While Jesus was on earth, he could be bodily present but in one place at one time. Yet, for in order to save men according to the divine plan of salvation, it was needful that the Holy Spirit, who could be in all places, be here with us, who could be with all ministers, and who could, at the same time, apply the work of Christ to people in all parts of the earth.

He says 'why'.. "..And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." Jn 16:8.
But, do you not believe in the eternal indwelling of the Spirit in the Believer?

 

[Carbon]

@XrzrX

Do you agree that the Father chose the bride of Christ, the elect, Christ came to redeem them, and the Spirit came to gather them? Each person of the Trinity performs an act in redemption, you agree? So, it was Jesus' part to make atonement, not apply it.

Until Jesus finished his work, the way was not open for the Holy Spirit to descend to perform his part of the divine plan; yet, when the Saviour had completed his portion of the work and had left the earth, the Spirit would carry forward the same plan and apply it to men.

You disagree?

 

[Carbon]

He says 'why'.. "..And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." Jn 16:8.
But, do you not believe in the eternal indwelling of the Spirit in the Believer?

Dont change things up now. We know Jesus does a lot of things, but I am discussing your point. Remember what you said? The Spirit does not indwell believers in the OT, and you were using John 16:7 to prove it?

Let's stay with this for now.

 

[XrzrX]

@XrzrX

Do you agree that the Father chose the bride of Christ, the elect, Christ came to redeem them, and the Spirit came to gather them? Each person of the Trinity performs an act in redemption, you agree? So, it was Jesus' part to make atonement, not apply it.

Until Jesus finished his work, the way was not open for the Holy Spirit to descend to perform his part of the divine plan; yet, when the Saviour had completed his portion of the work and had left the earth, the Spirit would carry forward the same plan and apply it to men.

You disagree?

I know that Jesus breathed on them in the Upper Room and they were 'filled with the Spirit'.. so, Jesus certainly could 'apply' the Spirit in the same way He was 'applied' in the OT. Yet, the NT shows a new application.. "In Him, you also, after listening to the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.." Eph 113-14. and "Do you not know that you are a Temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the Temple of God, God will destroy him, for the Temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." 1 Cor 3:16

 

[Carbon]

I know that Jesus breathed on them in the Upper Room and they were 'filled with the Spirit'.. so, Jesus certainly could 'apply' the Spirit in the same way He was 'applied' in the OT. Yet, the NT shows a new application.. "In Him, you also, after listening to the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.." Eph 113-14. and "Do you not know that you are a Temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the Temple of God, God will destroy him, for the Temple of God is holy, and that is what you are." 1 Cor 3:16

And how does this apply to or prove your theory?

 

[XrzrX]

And how does this apply to or prove your theory?

Where else in scripture is an individual believer called the "Temple of God", where the Spirit "dwells", which means it's literally "where He lives"?

 

[Carbon]

Where else in scripture is an individual believer called the "Temple of God", where the Spirit "dwells", which means it's literally "where He lives"?

Obviously, scripture teaches that a believer is the temple of God; it is where He dwells. Are you saying there are or were believers who were exempt from this?

 

[Carbon]

Obviously, scripture teaches that a believer is the temple of God; it is where He dwells. Are you saying there are or were believers who were exempt from this?

@XrzrX

You do know that the OT with its temple and sacrifices (types and shadows) all pointed to Jesus and his fulfilling the OT, right?

 

[XrzrX]

Obviously, scripture teaches that a believer is the temple of God; it is where He dwells. Are you saying there are or were believers who were exempt from this?

"And I will give them one heart and give within them a new spirit. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh.." Ezek 11:19.. speaking of the New Covenant.. not the Old. New, ratified in Jesus' Blood.. not Before. Abraham saw what was to come, not what 'was'. OT saints were justified by a faith in what they did not yet 'have', but knew they would. We have it.

 

[XrzrX]

@XrzrX

You do know that the OT with its temple and sacrifices (types and shadows) all pointed to Jesus and his fulfilling the OT, right?

Yes, and?

 

[Carbon]

"And I will give them one heart and give within them a new spirit. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh.." Ezek 11:19.. speaking of the New Covenant.. not the Old.

So the saints of the Ot had the unique ability to change their inner being all on their own and to love and obey God. Hmmm, that's interesting. Would you point me to this teaching in scripure? It must be in there, no?

New, ratified in Jesus' Blood.. not Before. Abraham saw what was to come, not what 'was'. OT saints were justified by a faith in what they did not yet 'have', but knew they would. We have it.

They were justified by faith and declared righteous because of it. They believed in the (future) Messiah. Through the Spirit gathering them, of course.
We, after the cross, believe in the Messiah who visited earth 2000 years ago. In the same way, justified by faith and declared righteous as Abraham was.

There is no difference.


If you claim there is a difference and are teaching such, you are teaching another (false) gospel.

 

[Carbon]

"And I will give them one heart and give within them a new spirit. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh.." Ezek 11:19.. speaking of the New Covenant.. not the Old. New, ratified in Jesus' Blood.. not Before. Abraham saw what was to come, not what 'was'. OT saints were justified by a faith in what they did not yet 'have', but knew they would. We have it.

So at that time, Abraham and other believers were exempt; they did not have the Spirit, they saved themselves.

 

[XrzrX]

So at that time, Abraham and other believers were exempt; they did not have the Spirit, they saved themselves.

We're talking indwelling here, specifically. "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. You know Him because He abides with you and will be IN you..".. "“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him."... Jn 14:16, 23. The Trinity makes Their home IN a Believer.
*This was Never the case before.

 

[Carbon]

We're talking indwelling here, specifically.

Well, you were mixing them up, and i thought you might be able to explain it. Sorry.

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him. You know Him because He abides with you and will be IN you..".. "“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our dwelling with him."... Jn 14:16, 23. The Trinity makes Their home IN a Believer.

*This was Never the case before.

What do you mean? What about Moses, Noah, David, and so many others? The Spirit of God was not indwelling them? Seriously?

 

[XrzrX]

Well, you were mixing them up, and i thought you might be able to explain it. Sorry.



What do you mean? What about Moses, Noah, David, and so many others? The Spirit of God was not indwelling them? Seriously?

No, He was not. Didn't Jesus literally just say He 'would ask the Father'?? Does this not denote something New?

 

[Carbon]

No, He was not.

Well, thank you for giving an honest and direct answer. So much for scripture being God-breathed and trustworthy in your world.

Didn't Jesus literally just say He 'would ask the Father'?? Does this not denote something New?

Do you not agree that scripture interprets scripture?

 

[XrzrX]

No, He was not. Didn't Jesus literally just say He 'would ask the Father'?? Does this not denote something New?

Well, you were mixing them up, and i thought you might be able to explain it. Sorry.



What do you mean? What about Moses, Noah, David, and so many others? The Spirit of God was not indwelling them? Seriously?

Just gonna throw it out, that I have seen your take on this before.. rarely, but it's not orthodox. I've seen both Hebrew Roots and RCs (*and other Calvinists) use the argument you are here.. know that it's not orthodox Protestant belief.