Three men or two angels?

[Josheb]

At the beginning of Genesis 18, scripture reports God (the LORD) visited Abraham. The text specifies "three men."

Genesis 18:1-3
1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Then the passage reports on God's promise to provide Abraham with a son. At the end of that passage the text switches to address the sinfulness of Sodom and Gomorrah. The text states,

Genesis 18:20-22, 33
20And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21“I will go down now and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD..... 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

The LORD departed after the (three) men have left. Chapter 19 starts with the following statement...

Genesis 19:1
1Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom.

• The LORD visited Abraham.
• Three men visited Abraham.
• The men left.
• Then the LORD departed.
• Two angels show up in Sodom.

What do y'all make of this?

 

[atpollard]

God appeared as a man (a Christophany) accompanied by two angels appearing in the form of men (as they do elsewhere in scripture). Thus all three descriptions [Lord, two angels, three men] are correct from the POV of the narration at that point. (Abraham saw men. Lord spoke with Abraham. Angels traveled on to Sodom.)

[That is what I make of it.]

 

[Josheb]

God appeared as a man (a Christophany) accompanied by two angels appearing in the form of men (as they do elsewhere in scripture). Thus all three descriptions [Lord, two angels, three men] are correct from the POV of the narration at that point. (Abraham saw men. Lord spoke with Abraham. Angels traveled on to Sodom.)

[That is what I make of it.]

Thx. Any comparative scripture(s) you think germane?

 

[atpollard]

John 8:56-58 [NASB]
"Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw [it] and rejoiced." So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Hebrews 13:2 [NASB]
Do not neglect hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

 

[makesends]

At the beginning of Genesis 18, scripture reports God (the LORD) visited Abraham. The text specifies "three men."

Genesis 18:1-3
1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Then the passage reports on God's promise to provide Abraham with a son. At the end of that passage the text switches to address the sinfulness of Sodom and Gomorrah. The text states,

Genesis 18:20-22, 33
20And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21“I will go down now and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD..... 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

The LORD departed after the (three) men have left. Chapter 19 starts with the following statement...

Genesis 19:1
1Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom.

• The LORD visited Abraham.
• Three men visited Abraham.
• The men left.
• Then the LORD departed.
• Two angels show up in Sodom.

What do y'all make of this?

John 8:56-58 [NASB]
"Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw [it] and rejoiced." So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Hebrews 13:2 [NASB]
Do not neglect hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

I don't think it can be proven that the Lord did not also go to Sodom; he may not have made himself visible there. I don't think it can be argued from silence one way or the other.

Or he could have, in the usual human sense, not been there.

 

[David Lamb]

I don't think it can be proven that the Lord did not also go to Sodom; he may not have made himself visible there. I don't think it can be argued from silence one way or the other.

Or he could have, in the usual human sense, not been there.

Is it really silence, though?

(Gen 18:13) And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I surely bear a child, since I am old?'

Then at the end of Genesis 18 we have the account of Abraham interceding with the Lord on behalf of Sodom, while Genesis 19 begins with the two angels arriving in Sodom. So it sems that the three were two angels an God Himself, perhaps a Theophany or Christophany.

 

[atpollard]

I don't think it can be proven that the Lord did not also go to Sodom; he may not have made himself visible there. I don't think it can be argued from silence one way or the other.

Or he could have, in the usual human sense, not been there.

There is a sense in which whether God is visible or invisible is irrelevant.
Where can one go that God is not already there?
Omnipotent - Omniscient - Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-12 [NASB]

Where can I go from Your Spirit? ​

Or where can I flee from Your presence? ​

​

If I ascend to heaven, You are there; ​

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. ​

​

[If] I take up the wings of the dawn, ​

[If] I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, ​

​

Even there Your hand will lead me, ​

And Your right hand will take hold of me. ​

​

[If] I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, ​

And the light around me will be night," ​

​

Even darkness is not dark to You, ​

And the night is as bright as the day. ​

Darkness and light are alike [to You.]​

 

[makesends]

There is a sense in which whether God is visible or invisible is irrelevant.
Where can one go that God is not already there?
Omnipotent - Omniscient - Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-12 [NASB]

Where can I go from Your Spirit? ​

Or where can I flee from Your presence? ​

​

If I ascend to heaven, You are there; ​

If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. ​

​

[If] I take up the wings of the dawn, ​

[If] I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, ​

​

Even there Your hand will lead me, ​

And Your right hand will take hold of me. ​

​

[If] I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, ​

And the light around me will be night," ​

​

Even darkness is not dark to You, ​

And the night is as bright as the day. ​

Darkness and light are alike [to You.]​

I'm not sure why you say this. Did I say differently?

 

[Josheb]

John 8:56-58 [NASB]
"Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day, and he saw [it] and rejoiced." So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Hebrews 13:2 [NASB]
Do not neglect hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

Good morning,

That's very good. My inquiry is particularly about the scripture's qualification of the three visitors; its identification the three first as the LORD (single individual or entity), then three men, then the three are distinguished as God and two angels.



As an aside, I've always found it curious Jesus' audience didn't ask about Abraham seeing Jesus' day. They wonder more about Jesus' age than Abraham's seeing (implying Abe saw (or understood) something they did not.


.

 

[Josheb]

I don't think it can be proven that the Lord did not also go to Sodom; he may not have made himself visible there. I don't think it can be argued from silence one way or the other.

Or he could have, in the usual human sense, not been there.

Good morning,

Perhaps, but if we stick to the text, we know God went to verify the reported sinfulness of Sodom and Gomorrah (S&G). How is not specified. Assuming the two remaining men that had visited Abraham are the two angels that entered Sodom we know that they did, in fact enter the city physically. This, therefore, is not an argument from silence either way. It is a (three-way) contrast between two (or more) explicit statements and the silence. I know what you do not think. Thx


Now tell me what you do think.

 

[makesends]

Good morning,

Perhaps, but if we stick to the text, we know God went to verify the reported sinfulness of Sodom and Gomorrah (S&G). How is not specified. Assuming the two remaining men that had visited Abraham are the two angels that entered Sodom we know that they did, in fact enter the city physically. This, therefore, is not an argument from silence either way. It is a (three-way) contrast between two (or more) explicit statements and the silence. I know what you do not think. Thx


Now tell me what you do think.

Yeah, that's cool. The text is silent on whether in fact God (as though one of the three) did indeed go there—that is, it did not say so, nor did it say he did not, except by what we may infer by the fact that only the two angels are mentioned entering Sodom. I've heard atheists and Christians who don't believe in verbal plenary inspiration use this passage to show that the Bible (or conversely, God) contradicts itself (himself). My point, then, was that there was no contradiction, as it can be answered several ways, seeing the nature and power of God.

Lol, I can even see where his authority and use of the angels can mean that indeed he went to Sodom, without any particular reference to his omnipresence nor to his presence in the usual human use of the word. As in LOTR, when Faramir says, "Shall I shoot?", he was not the one holding the bow —so also here, it is possible that God did what he said he would do, and 'went there' by sending his two angels.

 

[Josheb]

Yeah, that's cool. The text is silent on whether in fact God (as though one of the three) did indeed go there—that is, it did not say so, nor did it say he did not, except by what we may infer by the fact that only the two angels are mentioned entering Sodom.

Genesis 18:21 states, "I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know." Presumably, God did what He said He would do. He went down and saw for Himself whether or not the reports were entirely correct. Given the later report the place was turned into a scorch mark I suspect what He saw exceeded the outcry.

Lol, I can even see where his authority and use of the angels can mean that indeed he went to Sodom, without any particular reference to his omnipresence nor to his presence in the usual human use of the word. As in LOTR, when Faramir says, "Shall I shoot?", he was not the one holding the bow —so also here, it is possible that God did what he said he would do, and 'went there' by sending his two angels.

Great. Why call God "three men," then separate God from "two angels" and imply the men were God, or the men were God plus two angels?

 

[makesends]

Great. Why call God "three men," then separate God from "two angels" and imply the men were God, or the men were God plus two angels?

I didn't "call God, "three men""; I said he was one of the three men, just as the Bible does. I didn't "imply the men were God", but God and two angels, just as the Bible does.

 

[Josheb]

What do y'all make of this?

I take the first mention of God, the correlation between God and "three men" to be a reference to either the Trinity, or an adherence to the principle all matters (especially capital concerns) must be established by two or more witnesses. If I go back to Abraham's vision of the suzerain ritual it can be noted the smoldering/smoking pot and the fiery furnace are both images of God, but they can be taken as two distinct images, perhaps one representing the Son and the other the Spirit. I don't usually separate the imagery because it is Christ who leveraged his life in fealty to God, not the Spirit, but he does so through the conception and power of the Spirit. The two are distinct and inseparable, but nonetheless distinct in and of themselves. Christ has a presence on earth throughout the OT, beginning with the tree of life in Eden all the way through to his incarnation. Melchizedek and the numerous men/angels visibly appearing to men may be Christophanies.

God, the triune God, appears to Abraham to remind Abe and bear witness to the covenant promise of progeny, explain why He made that promise (see v. 19) and inform him what's about to happen in S&G. The latter is significant for several reasons. Among them are 1) Abe having left a land of depravity (Babylon) while heading to another land of depravity (S&G), which would be something to avoid, 2) God demonstrating both mercy and justice (and compassion and wrath), 3) the insidious nature of sin, in particular the sexual depravity endemic to sin, 4) a juxtaposition between Abe and Lot, 5) the problem with not trusting God, and 6) to foreshadow the soteriological and eschatological future. It's also worth noting nearly the exact same thing happened with the flood. Noah got drunk and so drunk his own son raped him (either dad or his mom). Lot hides out in a cave and his previously betrothed virginal daughters get him drunk and rape him.

God bears witness to it all and He has His Witnesses to corroborate His testimony.

That still doesn't explain why the scripture calls them God, then men (Heb. = ish), and then angels (Heb. = malak).

The word "angel" means "messenger." The men were messengers. Simple enough. But if the men were angelic messengers that is something much different then male human messengers.

 

[Josheb]

I didn't "call God, "three men"";

I did not say you said such a thing. Scripture does so.

I said he was one of the three men, just as the Bible does. I didn't "imply the men were God", but God and two angels, just as the Bible does.

This has nothing to do with what you posted, nor the mistaken perception I am saying you said something you did not say. Scripture states, "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him..." When the LORD appeared to Abraham what Abraham saw was three men (three male humans, according to the Hebrew).


Later, the two men leave for S&G while God remains and Abe stands before Him. God says He's going to go take a look for Himself. Two angels go to S&G.

 

[makesends]

I did not say you said such a thing. Scripture does so.

This has nothing to do with what you posted, nor the mistaken perception I am saying you said something you did not say. Scripture states, "Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him..." When the LORD appeared to Abraham what Abraham saw was three men (three male humans, according to the Hebrew).


Later, the two men leave for S&G while God remains and Abe stands before Him. God says He's going to go take a look for Himself. Two angels go to S&G.

So, what's the confusion? Abraham saw three men. It doesn't call the three men, "God".

Nor is there any implication that the two going to S&G before God says He's going to go take a look, mean that he didn't do so by sending the angels (nor, as you have noted) have I said that he did, but only that he could have.

And not that it is relevant to any disagreement between you and me, but, you have added, "go take a look for Himself." It doesn't say that.

 

[Josheb]

So, what's the confusion?

Yeah..... No.

No one said anything about confusion, and this is the second time you've posted things about this conversation that have no basis in reality, so I'll not be replying to further posts from you until I read evidence that problem has been corrected.

Abraham saw three men. It doesn't call the three men, "God".

The relevant verses were posted and what I posted is what I posted.

Nor is there any implication that the two going to S&G before God says He's going to go take a look, mean that he didn't do so by sending the angels (nor, as you have noted) have I said that he did, but only that he could have.

Already addressed.

And not that it is relevant to any disagreement between you and me...

I was unaware any disagreement with the text of scripture existed. The only disagreement we have is you putting words into the conversation no one has posted.

, but, you have added, "go take a look for Himself." It doesn't say that.

It does say that.

Genesis 18:20-21
And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

The text states is God stating God will go down and see. What the text does not state is, "I will send others in my place..." I have already explained the correct way to understand an argument from silence and provided an explanation regarding the correct way to exegete scripture so as to avoid arguments from silence.


Bye.

 

[makesends]

Yeah..... No.

No one said anything about confusion, and this is the second time you've posted things about this conversation that have no basis in reality, so I'll not be replying to further posts from you until I read evidence that problem has been corrected.

The relevant verses were posted and what I posted is what I posted.

Already addressed.

I was unaware any disagreement with the text of scripture existed. The only disagreement we have is you putting words into the conversation no one has posted.

It does say that.

Genesis 18:20-21
And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

The text states is God stating God will go down and see. What the text does not state is, "I will send others in my place..." I have already explained the correct way to understand an argument from silence and provided an explanation regarding the correct way to exegete scripture so as to avoid arguments from silence.


Bye.

What the text does not state is that God will go down and see "for himself". It only states that he will go down and see. Your emphasis is an attempt to disallow that God can do such through other means. It would be false to disallow that. That it does not say he used other means does not indicate that he did not use means. Whether or not he did is not given in the text. I agree that most likely he did do so himself, but you can't show that he did not do so through means. As I said at the outset, there are many ways he can do so without there being three that met with Lot.

 

[Josheb]

What the text does not state is that God will go down and see "for himself".

The text of scripture proves otherwise.

It only states that he will go down and see. Your emphasis is an attempt to disallow that God can do such through other means. It would be false to disallow that. That it does not say he used other means does not indicate that he did not use means. Whether or not he did is not given in the text. I agree that most likely he did do so himself, but you can't show that he did not do so through means. As I said at the outset, there are many ways he can do so without there being three that met with Lot.

There's not a single word in that entire post that is correct and belaboring the absence of the word "Himself," is a fallacious argument from silence. It is irrational to complain about ex silentio and then willfully commit the error after having been correctly informed. It is equally irrational to complain about implications and inferences and then assert implications and inferences. Both of those problems are magnified when the text does state something contradictory to the implications. It's also irrational to invent problems that do not exist (no one said you said anything you did not say, and no one says anything or anyone is confused..... except you).

I am not collaborating with any of it until I read those problems corrected.

 

[JesusFan]

At the beginning of Genesis 18, scripture reports God (the LORD) visited Abraham. The text specifies "three men."

Genesis 18:1-3
1Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Then the passage reports on God's promise to provide Abraham with a son. At the end of that passage the text switches to address the sinfulness of Sodom and Gomorrah. The text states,

Genesis 18:20-22, 33
20And the LORD said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21“I will go down now and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD..... 33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

The LORD departed after the (three) men have left. Chapter 19 starts with the following statement...

Genesis 19:1
1Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom.

• The LORD visited Abraham.
• Three men visited Abraham.
• The men left.
• Then the LORD departed.
• Two angels show up in Sodom.

What do y'all make of this?

God the Son appearing preincarnate to Abraham, as he did later on as ThE Angel of the Lord