The Propitiation/Expiation Only Debate

[Arial]

So are the elect objectively saved from Gods wrath b4 they are regenerated and subjectively believe ?

Your question confuses the accomplishment of redemption with its application. And you have made saving faith subjective.

Propitiation refers to what Christ objectively achieved at the cross. His sacrifice truly satisfied God;s wrath. But individuals are not regenerated or justified before faith.

The elect are chosen eternally and redeemed objectively by Christ, but they are united to him in time through regeneration and faith. Until that union they are not personally justified, even though their salvation has been secured.

Faith is the Spirit-given instrument by which the objectively accomplished work of Christ is applied to the sinner. It is not a subjective add-on that makes salvation real.

 

[brightfame52]

Your question confuses the accomplishment of redemption with its application. And you have made saving faith subjective.

I don't see how. Expiation and propitiation and justification are legal objective accomplishments between the Father and Son on behalf of the elect. Now in time each justified elect will have a Spiritual, Subjective experience by the New Birth. But what Christ accomplished objectively, aught not be confused with the Spirits work. The Spirits work is not legal but Spiritual and vital

 

[Arial]

I don't see how. Expiation and propitiation and justification are legal objective accomplishments between the Father and Son on behalf of the elect. Now in time each justified elect will have a Spiritual, Subjective experience by the New Birth. But what Christ accomplished objectively, aught not be confused with the Spirits work. The Spirits work is not legal but Spiritual and vital

I didn't never said the Spirit applying the work of Christ to the believer in regeneration was legal In fact I said nothing about anything being legal in the post you are quoting from. It seems you are manufacturing non-existent arguments in order to promote your agenda and keep talking about it. Even though it is not the subject of the OP.

The new birth is not subjective it is objective. Faith is not subjective when referring to the faith that God gives unto union with Christ, It is very specific and objective. Something doesn't have to be a legal category in order to be objective.

What is objective about propitiation is that the object of Christ's death on the cross was God's wrath against the sinner. It was this propitiation that secured expiation and justification. But that expiation and justification takes place in time with regeneration and faith which unites a person to Christ and his work. Stop confusing categories. Your response does not show that you weren't confusing accomplishment of redemption with its application. It reinforces that you are.

 

[brightfame52]

What is objective about propitiation is that the object of Christ's death on the cross was God's wrath against the sinner. It was this propitiation that secured expiation and justification

The point is Christ death provided salvation in the legal phase of Salvation for the elect, so when they are born as sinners and ungodly, they are legally saved from their sin and God's wrath, solely based on the person and work of Christ.

Now because of that, each of them Will be born again by the Spirit to be saved from spiritual death, that is the vital phase of salvation, done by the Spirit in behalf of Christ legal phase being successful. It's in the vital phase the elect are given faith to see and receive in their hearts what Christ has legally done and find rest and peace in believing.

 

[makesends]

So why wasnt it effectual for them b4 they believed, or why wasn't
it applied to them b4 they believed? Wasn't God satisfied with what Christ did for them b4 they believed?




So did God hold them guilty for what they were in adam, sinners even after Christ satisfied for all their sins and sinfulness in adam and themselves?

God does in time, what he sees as complete in eternity.

You are attempting to hold his view temporally described. That doesn't work.

One way to look at it: He spoke "eternal"* fact into being, complete, and perfect --i.e. the Bride of Christ etc., and the temporal is how he accomplished it.

*"Eternal", in the usual sense, means without beginning or end. I say "eternal" only for lack of a better way to describe the non-temporal nature of the completed form of what had a beginning, was caused, was not God, yet will (speaking temporally) endure "forever", in Him. ​

 

[brightfame52]

God does in time, what he sees as complete in eternity.

Wasn't Christ death in time?

 

[John Bauer]

Wasn't Christ death in time?

Incarnately? Yes, it was.

 

[makesends]

Wasn't Christ death in time?

Aren't you stuck in time?

 

[brightfame52]

Incarnately? Yes, it was.

Okay then

 

[brightfame52]

Aren't you stuck in time?

Huh what kind of question is that

 

[brightfame52]

But that expiation and justification takes place in time with regeneration and faith which unites a person to Christ and his work.

That's false they take place at the death of Christ before the beneficiaries are born into the world. Now the spiritual blessing take place at the time of regeneration, but the legal blessing when Christ sat down at the right hand of God Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[Arial]

That's false they take place at the death of Christ before the beneficiaries are born into the world. Now the spiritual blessing take place at the time of regeneration, but the legal blessing when Christ sat down at the right hand of God Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The way you are applying that is false. The way of redemption was purchased--propitiation having been made and therefore the way of the expiation of the sin, at the cross. The work for redemption was complete. But all are born in Adam---sinners who sin. Their sins are not removed before a person is born in Adam or before they come to faith as faith is the scripturally expressed means by which it is applied to them. And that is when they are legally justified. They are not justified before they are justified. In your view there would be no need of faith. Faith is given through regeneration uniting a person to Christ, and this union is what produces the blessings.

This has been pointed out to you, as has the illogic of your theory, in every other thread you hijack for the purposes of making it all about you and your tunnel vision. Thanks for yet another success.

A debate over the correct translation of hilasterion in Romans 3:25, (whether it should be "propitiation" which refers contextually to satisfaction of God's wrath against sin and sinners, or "expiation", which simply means removal of sin or guilt) could have been a worthy forum conversation. Expiation only abstracts sin from judgment.

Maybe few would have shown an interest in it anyway, but once a well-known poster and familiarity with their posts, shows up and hijacks it into the same old, same old, never resolved but simply the repetitive claim being put forth over and over, it likely will be a conversation that will simply disappear into the ether.

I certainly will not engage anymore with the hijack. So, thanks again.

 

[brightfame52]

The way you are applying that is false.

No its not. Christ purged our sins and sat down at the right hand of God Heb 1:3


Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The word purged καθαρισμός means:

1. a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Now thats a legally completed work, a perfect work, all the elect by the death of are cleansed from all legal guilt of sin charged against them, NOW. And That truth should be proclaimed in the Gospel Of Christ

 

[Arial]

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The word purged καθαρισμός means:

1. a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Now thats a legally completed work, a perfect work, all the elect by the death of are cleansed from all legal guilt of sin charged against them, NOW. And That truth should be proclaimed in the Gospel Of Christ

The expiation of sins is because his work on the cross satisfied God's just wrath against the sinner. If that were not the case, sin would not be judged and God would not be just.

Do you not agree with penal substitutionary atonement? Do you think that just because someone is elect, their sins are already expiated sins before they come to Christ through faith? That would make a good case for antinomianism.

It would also support a straw man criticism of those opposing Reformed theology when they accuse it of teaching that no faith is needed.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you think that just because someone is elect, their sins are already expiated sins before they come to Christ through faith?

Yes Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Did Christ purge their sin B4 they came to Christ and believe?

 

[brightfame52]

It would also support a straw man criticism of those opposing Reformed theology when they accuse it of teaching that no faith is needed.

Man's faith or belief in Christ doesn't expiate sin, purge their sin, or propitiated the Wrath of God, The Person of Christ did that. My faith believes that.

 

[Arial]

Man's faith or belief in Christ doesn't expiate sin, purge their sin, or propitiated the Wrath of God, The Person of Christ did that. My faith believes that.

Faith is the means by which one is joined to Christ. Being joined to Christ imputes his righteousness to them. Without faith there is no union with Christ, without union in Christ through faith, there is no work that he did on the cross applied to a person, without the substitutionary ransom and his propitiating work applied there is no expiation and therefore no justification.

I have never said that faith was propitiation or expiation. I have only ever said it is Christ who did that work. So, if you are disagreeing with me on those grounds, you have brought a straw man in to fight a battle that does not even exist.

 

[Arial]

Yes Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Did Christ purge their sin B4 they came to Christ and believe?

Why are you presenting your same old illogical and off topic argument back into this thread. That violates three rules.



2.2. Address the issue, topic, or argument, not the person. Such things as inflammatory or marginalizing language, divisiveness, misquoting, misrepresenting, trolling, and personal attacks (including belittling, insulting, falsely accusing, or making assumptions about the character, motives, or faith of other members) are strictly prohibited. It only serves to derail meaningful theological discussion. Avoid speech that incites needless conflict, fosters resentment, seeks to stir up strife among believers, or exaggerates or distorts another member's words in order to discredit them or to win an argument. When quoting or summarizing another member’s position, do so honestly, in context, and preferably with a citation to ensure that their views are represented accurately and fairly. Aim to promote unity in Christ while allowing for meaningful debate, speaking the truth in love and humility, recognizing that all wisdom and understanding comes from God (cf. Rule 2.1).


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[brightfame52]

Faith is the means by which one is joined to Christ.

Spoiler: Rules-violating content

Faith didnt purge the sins of the elect. You are giving faith the preeminence over Christ and His accomplishment. Thats unwise

 

[brightfame52]

Without faith there is no union with Christ, without union in Christ through faith,

Spoiler: Rules-violating content

So are you saying the elects sins were not purged away by Christ if they didnt have Faith first ? Then Heb 1:3 is a lie because multitudes of elect were not even born as sinners yet when Christ purged their sins away. Was the elects sins charged to Christ before they had Faith in Him or even b4 they were born ?