The Propitiation/Expiation Only Debate

[Arial]

So are the elect objectively saved from Gods wrath b4 they are regenerated and subjectively believe ?

Your question confuses the accomplishment of redemption with its application. And you have made saving faith subjective.

Propitiation refers to what Christ objectively achieved at the cross. His sacrifice truly satisfied God;s wrath. But individuals are not regenerated or justified before faith.

The elect are chosen eternally and redeemed objectively by Christ, but they are united to him in time through regeneration and faith. Until that union they are not personally justified, even though their salvation has been secured.

Faith is the Spirit-given instrument by which the objectively accomplished work of Christ is applied to the sinner. It is not a subjective add-on that makes salvation real.

 

[brightfame52]

Your question confuses the accomplishment of redemption with its application. And you have made saving faith subjective.

I don't see how. Expiation and propitiation and justification are legal objective accomplishments between the Father and Son on behalf of the elect. Now in time each justified elect will have a Spiritual, Subjective experience by the New Birth. But what Christ accomplished objectively, aught not be confused with the Spirits work. The Spirits work is not legal but Spiritual and vital

 

[Arial]

I don't see how. Expiation and propitiation and justification are legal objective accomplishments between the Father and Son on behalf of the elect. Now in time each justified elect will have a Spiritual, Subjective experience by the New Birth. But what Christ accomplished objectively, aught not be confused with the Spirits work. The Spirits work is not legal but Spiritual and vital

I didn't never said the Spirit applying the work of Christ to the believer in regeneration was legal In fact I said nothing about anything being legal in the post you are quoting from. It seems you are manufacturing non-existent arguments in order to promote your agenda and keep talking about it. Even though it is not the subject of the OP.

The new birth is not subjective it is objective. Faith is not subjective when referring to the faith that God gives unto union with Christ, It is very specific and objective. Something doesn't have to be a legal category in order to be objective.

What is objective about propitiation is that the object of Christ's death on the cross was God's wrath against the sinner. It was this propitiation that secured expiation and justification. But that expiation and justification takes place in time with regeneration and faith which unites a person to Christ and his work. Stop confusing categories. Your response does not show that you weren't confusing accomplishment of redemption with its application. It reinforces that you are.

 

[brightfame52]

What is objective about propitiation is that the object of Christ's death on the cross was God's wrath against the sinner. It was this propitiation that secured expiation and justification

The point is Christ death provided salvation in the legal phase of Salvation for the elect, so when they are born as sinners and ungodly, they are legally saved from their sin and God's wrath, solely based on the person and work of Christ.

Now because of that, each of them Will be born again by the Spirit to be saved from spiritual death, that is the vital phase of salvation, done by the Spirit in behalf of Christ legal phase being successful. It's in the vital phase the elect are given faith to see and receive in their hearts what Christ has legally done and find rest and peace in believing.