The parable of the Sower.

[Carbon]

Matthew 13
1: That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears let him hear.”

Arminian, can you find any support for free will in this parable in Matthew 13?
And considering scripture interprets scripture, do you find any help or support for free will in 1 Corinthians 3 below?

1 Corinthians 3:
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

Personally, I believe 1 Corinthians makes it much more difficult to prove any free will for salvation. Matter of fact, I believe it proves otherwise.


Thoughts?

 

[CrowCross]

Matthew 13
1: That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears let him hear.”

Arminian, can you find any support for free will in this parable in Matthew 13?
And considering scripture interprets scripture, do you find any help or support for free will in 1 Corinthians 3 below?

1 Corinthians 3:
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

Personally, I believe 1 Corinthians makes it much more difficult to prove any free will for salvation. Matter of fact, I believe it proves otherwise.


Thoughts?

I've never seem those two verses together.

0% us and 100% God.

 

[Carbon]

I've never seem those two verses together.

0% us and 100% God.

Two verses? What do you mean?

 

[CrowCross]

Two verses? What do you mean?

To explain sowing of the Gospel and how God has to give it growth.

 

[Tambora]

Matthew 13
1: That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears let him hear.”

Arminian, can you find any support for free will in this parable in Matthew 13?
And considering scripture interprets scripture, do you find any help or support for free will in 1 Corinthians 3 below?

1 Corinthians 3:
5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

Personally, I believe 1 Corinthians makes it much more difficult to prove any free will for salvation. Matter of fact, I believe it proves otherwise.


Thoughts?

I hope you don't mind that I answer even though I don't claim the title of being an Arminian. (If you do mind then just delete this post.)

I don't see determinism in the sower parable.
Why would the evil one snatch the gospel away from them before they understood it if there was never going to be any possibility for them to understand it?
And why would the worries of the world be a hinderance for them to stand firm till the end if there was never going to be any possibility for them to stand firm till the end?

Neither do I see determinism in 1 Corinthians.
I see it as akin to John the baptizer saying he must decrease, and Christ must increase.
Or akin to no member of the body being able to say they are of more importance than the other members, and Christ is the head.
Or akin to all the hired servants being paid the same amount no matter how many hours of the day they had labored, and Christ is the wage giver.

 

[Arial]

I don't see determinism in the sower parable.
Why would the evil one snatch the gospel away from them before they understood it if there was never going to be any possibility for them to understand it?
And why would the worries of the world be a hinderance for them to stand firm till the end if there was never going to be any possibility for them to stand firm till the end?

How I view that:
Matt 13:3 The he told them many things in parables, saying...

This chapter is a series of Jesus teaching through parables. The first is the parable of the sower and 3-9 simply gives the parable with no explanation. The disciples were having trouble with why he was teaching in that manner. If we can put ourselves in the shoes of those who heard him speak for minute, I suspect we would be wondering why on earth did he say that? What is it supposed to teach us? And the disciples asked him why.

Jesus answered them, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables: 'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." That is the summary of what the parable is teaching.

Verse 18 "Listen to what the parable of the sower means:" Then he gives the explanation.

So Jesus is not teaching a doctrinal position here specifically, but comparing the entrance into the kingdom of heaven with an agricultural illustration they were familiar with. Many hear the gospel but few understand it. Some hear it and like it but they have no root (it is not in their heart). Trouble and persecution reveal the rootlessness of their original joy. And so on.

The good soil refers to those who both hear it and understand it. When someone understands it that would mean it is rooted in their heart ----they believe it. And it is believing that unites one with Christ. Not choosing. A person believes before they choose.

So, to remove the conflict with election by God and therefore security of salvation that you see, we can go to other scriptures that are clear and are not parables. I will offer two: John 6:36-37 "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." 64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) " And he said,"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 10:25-29 Jesus answered them. "I told you and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

The gospel (the good news) is not secret, it is openly preached. Many here it, few (relatively)truly understand it and therefore believe it. "Many are called, (hear but do not believe) but few are chosen." The Pharisees and Jews Jesus was speaking to had the very Son of God standing right in front of them. They had the witness of his works as to who he was, and they still did not believe. It is the Father who prepares the good soil and plants the seed in it.

 

[atpollard]

I don't see determinism in the sower parable.
Why would the evil one snatch the gospel away from them before they understood it if there was never going to be any possibility for them to understand it?
And why would the worries of the world be a hinderance for them to stand firm till the end if there was never going to be any possibility for them to stand firm till the end?

Not "Hard Determinism" but "Compatibilism".

Take "the evil one snatching away" as an example and look to other places in scripture where Satan interferes with men.

• in JOB, we have Satan as the instrument of God on a short leash. Time and again "this far and no further" (Job 1:12, Job 2:6) ... always according to God's plan. Note who brought up the name of Job first in the conversation. (Job 1:8)
• [2 Corinthians 4:3-7 NLT]

"If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. ​

You see, we don't go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ. ​

We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves."​

​

Satan is not GOD. He is a tool, but not a PRIME CAUSE. God distributes LIGHT and Satan keeps those without His Light, in their darkness. A means to God's end.​

​

Each of the other soils can be viewed the same way. As Romans 1 states, God does not CAUSE their darkness, he merely "abandoned them" to it: Romans 1:24, 26, 28 ... just as God abandons them to the "birds", "stones" and "weeds" of the parable.​

​

 

[Tambora]

Not "Hard Determinism" but "Compatibilism".

I hope you don't think that answers the questions.

Take "the evil one snatching away" as an example and look to other places in scripture where Satan interferes with men.

• in JOB, we have Satan as the instrument of God on a short leash. Time and again "this far and no further" (Job 1:12, Job 2:6) ... always according to God's plan. Note who brought up the name of Job first in the conversation. (Job 1:8)
• [2 Corinthians 4:3-7 NLT]

"If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing. Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. ​

Not always true.
We know that Christ's defeat of the evil one by the death and resurrection of Jesus was hidden from everyone because Christ would not have been crucified if it was revealed beforehand.

You see, we don't go around preaching about ourselves. ​

I preach about everyone in the world.
I preach that God loves the world, and whosoever believes in Him and what He has done for the world would not perish, for He has done everything needed for the whole world to produce good fruit.

We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let there be light in the darkness," has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ. ​

We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves."​

​

Satan is not GOD. He is a tool, but not a PRIME CAUSE. God distributes LIGHT and Satan keeps those without His Light, in their darkness. A means to God's end.​

​

Each of the other soils can be viewed the same way. As Romans 1 states, God does not CAUSE their darkness, he merely "abandoned them" to it: Romans 1:24, 26, 28 ... just as God abandons them to the "birds", "stones" and "weeds" of the parable.​

​

How does that compare with "no one hides a light"?


God did everything that could be done for the whole world, and He did so with the hope that the whole world would be filled with the righteous.

Isa 5:4​

(4) What more was there to do for my vineyard, that I have not done in it? When I looked for it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes?​

But alas, God did not get what He had hoped for because He created mankind with freewill to choose His ways or not.
It was not until they made the choice to abandon His ways that He gave them up, but that was not what He wanted to happen.
What He wanted to happen was for His whole vineyard to be of sweet fruit (the righteous) with no sour fruit (unrighteous) at all.

 

[atpollard]

I hope you don't think that answers the questions.

Actually, it DOES answer the questions. I went on to explain how by presenting several biblical examples and then applying the lesson to the Parable of the Sower.

I am sorry that I could not explain it so you could understand. That was my failure.

 

[atpollard]

I preach about everyone in the world.
I preach that God loves the world, and whosoever believes in Him and what He has done for the world would not perish, for He has done everything needed for the whole world to produce good fruit.

Just for the record, the bold italic part was a direct quote of actual scripture, so you are attempting to refute God’s words (2 Corinthians 4:3) and not my words in that part.

 

[Tambora]

Just for the record, the bold italic part was a direct quote of actual scripture, so you are attempting to refute God’s words (2 Corinthians 4:3) and not my words in that part.

And that's the point.
You posted scripture support, and I posted scripture support.
One can find scripture to support whatever their perspective may be.
One can find scripture to support that God sows all the seeds, and one can find scripture support that God sows some seeds and Satan sows some seeds (wheat & tares).
Biblical doctrine doesn't have to be reduced to a single either/or perspective that tends to divide believers, it can be both and unify believers as being equally perceptive.