The logic of faith and works

[TonyChanYT]

Faith ≡ faithful works. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Here, I will give the First-Order Logical proof of that.

Let proposition F = you have faith in his heart.
W = you exhibit (faithful) deeds.

James 2:

17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

¬W → ¬F
⇒ F → W

Now let's look at the converse.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Works show faith. But what kinds of works?

Galatians 2:

16 know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Works of the law (without faith) are not good enough. Only faithful works or deeds will do.

Matthew 5:

16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

My good, faithful works show my faith.
W → F

Altogether, it is saying F ⟷ W.

Because F ≡ W. James 2:

24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What about saving by faith alone, as Paul expressed?

Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of [faithless] works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith for good works.

ESV 1 Timothy 4:

16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Titus 3:

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in [faithless] righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit

Philippians 2:

12b work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Right. Works apart from faith (i.e., faithless works) are useless in saving you. However, after you have been saved by faith, you will naturally show faithful deeds because F ⇔ W, according to James 2 and Galatians 2.

Faith and faithful works are logically the same things. You can't have one without the other. Your invisible vertical faith will produce observable horizontal works.

See also Can we lose our salvation?.

 

[Josheb]

Faith ≡ faithful works. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin.

O my goodness. No, that is incorrect. Faith is not equal to or equivalent with faithful works. Yes, the two go together (like the two sides of a coin) but no, they are not identical or synonymous and the difference is very, very, very important. Critically so.

Faith is believing and trusting in God.
Faithfulness is works, works that are consistent with one's belief and trust.

James argued a faith that is not followed by works (faithfulness) is a "dead" faith but his use of "dead" did not mean non-existent. That person still had faith; it simply was not evidenced. James never argued works save. James (and Paul) were teaching their readers about justification (having a legal basis to stand before God). Justification is not synonymous with or equivalent with, or identical with salvation. Justification is a part of salvation, not the whole of it. We are first justified by Christ, Christ's work on Calvary, Christ's blood. He justifies those who believe. Only after being "in Christ" does anyone have any faith by which they might be faithful.


Abraham was justified by faith.

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness (even though he was not, himself, righteous).

Abraham was not justified by faithfulness (works).

Abraham demonstrated his faith by faithfulness, by acting in a manner consistent with his faith, his belief and trust in God.

James says a man is justified by faith evidenced by works but James NEVER states works alone justify anyone any time in any way.

Faith ≡ faithful works.

No.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin.

Yes, but heads is not the same as tails.

 

[fastfredy0]

"Works" are the effect of "Faith".
Romans 3:28 For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

 

[makesends]

Faith ≡ faithful works. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Here, I will give the First-Order Logical proof of that.

Let proposition F = you have faith in his heart.
W = you exhibit (faithful) deeds.

James 2:


¬W → ¬F
⇒ F → W

Now let's look at the converse.


Works show faith. But what kinds of works?

Galatians 2:


Works of the law (without faith) are not good enough. Only faithful works or deeds will do.

Matthew 5:


My good, faithful works show my faith.
W → F

Altogether, it is saying F ⟷ W.

Because F ≡ W. James 2:


What about saving by faith alone, as Paul expressed?

Ephesians 2:


We are saved by grace through faith for good works.

ESV 1 Timothy 4:


Titus 3:


Philippians 2:


Right. Works apart from faith (i.e., faithless works) are useless in saving you. However, after you have been saved by faith, you will naturally show faithful deeds because F ⇔ W, according to James 2 and Galatians 2.

Faith and faithful works are logically the same things. You can't have one without the other. Your invisible vertical faith will produce observable horizontal works.

See also Can we lose our salvation?.

O my goodness. No, that is incorrect. Faith is not equal to or equivalent with faithful works. Yes, the two go together (like the two sides of a coin) but no, they are not identical or synonymous and the difference is very, very, very important. Critically so.

Faith is believing and trusting in God.
Faithfulness is works, works that are consistent with one's belief and trust.

James argued a faith that is not followed by works (faithfulness) is a "dead" faith but his use of "dead" did not mean non-existent. That person still had faith; it simply was not evidenced. James never argued works save. James (and Paul) were teaching their readers about justification (having a legal basis to stand before God). Justification is not synonymous with or equivalent with, or identical with salvation. Justification is a part of salvation, not the whole of it. We are first justified by Christ, Christ's work on Calvary, Christ's blood. He justifies those who believe. Only after being "in Christ" does anyone have any faith by which they might be faithful.


Abraham was justified by faith.

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness (even though he was not, himself, righteous).

Abraham was not justified by faithfulness (works).

Abraham demonstrated his faith by faithfulness, by acting in a manner consistent with his faith, his belief and trust in God.

James says a man is justified by faith evidenced by works but James NEVER states works alone justify anyone any time in any way.

No.

Yes, but heads is not the same as tails.

"Works" are the effect of "Faith".
Romans 3:28 For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I can't speak for @TonyChanYT , but I've gotten the impression that what he is trying to do here is as he has done several other times --not trying, for example in this instance, to prove that faith is equivalent to works-- but to show what happens when you apply first order logic to the terms of the text. He has in the past plainly said that first order logic is useful but not for all things. But, again, I'm not the one to say that that is what he is trying to show here.

First order logic (as I understand it) doesn't allow vague or undefined terms like "is related to" or "produces" or "intends" or such.

 

[Mr GLee]

Faith ≡ faithful works. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Here, I will give the First-Order Logical proof of that.

Let proposition F = you have faith in his heart.
W = you exhibit (faithful) deeds.

James 2:


¬W → ¬F
⇒ F → W

Now let's look at the converse.


Works show faith. But what kinds of works?

Galatians 2:


Works of the law (without faith) are not good enough. Only faithful works or deeds will do.

Matthew 5:


My good, faithful works show my faith.
W → F

Altogether, it is saying F ⟷ W.

Because F ≡ W. James 2:


What about saving by faith alone, as Paul expressed?

Ephesians 2:


We are saved by grace through faith for good works.

ESV 1 Timothy 4:


Titus 3:


Philippians 2:


Right. Works apart from faith (i.e., faithless works) are useless in saving you. However, after you have been saved by faith, you will naturally show faithful deeds because F ⇔ W, according to James 2 and Galatians 2.

Faith and faithful works are logically the same things. You can't have one without the other. Your invisible vertical faith will produce observable horizontal works.

See also Can we lose our salvation?.

Thanks I would offer faith a word that can cause confusion coming from the gods of confusion.

Faith is a work of God our powerful Emanuel working in us as informed in Philippian 2 :13. God's power working in us to both (the gospel key) hear the understanding of His will and empower dying mankind to perform to His good pleasure . Yoked with him our daily burdens can be lighter

Faith is a work , From my experience many say God has no need for faith. If the was true there would not be a message board .

God working out his plan as law a labor of His Love . Our Father did not say "Let there be" and there was no evidence of (it was good)

its what the Bible calls dead faith , dead works. . no outcome ,Mankind canot move God by some work we perform

Hebrews 6 King James Version6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of (dead) faith toward God,

Hebrews 6King James Version6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, . . (dead human faith) or will

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. (power)

He calls us of little faith. . Him working with us freely giving the believer just enough power to please Him . He is the storeroom of power ( A work of His faith as a labor of his love )

I would think 99 percent of the time when we see the word faith it must be attributed to ort invisible head Christ

Numbers 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Christ working in Moses to both give him understanding and the faith or power to please

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Great Faith the power of God to raise the dead to new born again life

Mark 9:19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
I
Luke 9:41And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

 

[makesends]

Thanks I would offer faith a word that can cause confusion coming from the gods of confusion.

Faith is a work of God our powerful Emanuel working in us as informed in Philippian 2 :13. God's power working in us to both (the gospel key) hear the understanding of His will and empower dying mankind to perform to His good pleasure . Yoked with him our daily burdens can be lighter

Faith is a work , From my experience many say God has no need for faith. If the was true there would not be a message board .

God working out his plan as law a labor of His Love . Our Father did not say "Let there be" and there was no evidence of (it was good)

its what the Bible calls dead faith , dead works. . no outcome ,Mankind canot move God by some work we perform

Hebrews 6 King James Version6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of (dead) faith toward God,

Hebrews 6King James Version6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, . . (dead human faith) or will

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. (power)

He calls us of little faith. . Him working with us freely giving the believer just enough power to please Him . He is the storeroom of power ( A work of His faith as a labor of his love )

I would think 99 percent of the time when we see the word faith it must be attributed to ort invisible head Christ

Numbers 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

Christ working in Moses to both give him understanding and the faith or power to please

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Great Faith the power of God to raise the dead to new born again life
Mark 9:19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
I
Luke 9:41And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

I'm trying to think what the word is for what I call 'sloughing' between meanings for a word, by using the same word in different contexts as though they meant the same thing in all contexts. Sloppy reasoning, for sure. You say faith is a work. If you mean that faith (at least, salvific faith) is a work, then it can be only God's work, since Salvation through faith is by grace and explicitly NOT by works (implicitly, by men). As one continues to try wading through your post, it is hard to tell just what you are even talking about.

'Faithful', as in, a faithful servant, for example, is not about salvific faith, but about trustworthiness.

But I do agree that faith, whatever one intends by it, if meant in all its perfections, must be attributed to Christ.

 

[prism]

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin.

Only if both sides of that coin contain Christ.

 

[Mr GLee]

I'm trying to think what the word is for what I call 'sloughing' between meanings for a word, by using the same word in different contexts as though they meant the same thing in all contexts. Sloppy reasoning, for sure. You say faith is a work. If you mean that faith (at least, salvific faith) is a work, then it can be only God's work, since Salvation through faith is by grace and explicitly NOT by works (implicitly, by men). As one continues to try wading through your post, it is hard to tell just what you are even talking about.

'Faithful', as in, a faithful servant, for example, is not about salvific faith, but about trustworthiness.

But I do agree that faith, whatever one intends by it, if meant in all its perfections, must be attributed to Christ.

Yes it can only be the work of God . He freely gives us little faith as power. calling us of little faith a remnant of His Spirit

Christ's work of faith or called a labor is the power of God works in us two fold both to will and do the good pleasure of God.

We have a remnant power of his faith working in us in us. . . but would never say it was of our own dying flesh

John 4:33-35King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his works ay not ye, same principle as below

The spiritual food, hidden manna our daily bread

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Josheb]

I can't speak for @TonyChanYT , but I've gotten the impression that what he is trying to do here is as he has done several other times --not trying, for example in this instance, to prove that faith is equivalent to works-- but to show what happens when you apply first order logic to the terms of the text.

If so then he has, imo, done a poor job. Words have meaning and discussion boards are text-based mediums. All any of us have is the word on our screen. It is incumbent on every single one of us to be articulate or, on the occasion when we have not been sufficiently clear, to make clarification without also feeling offended.

He has in the past plainly said that first order logic is useful but not for all things. But, again, I'm not the one to say that that is what he is trying to show here. First order logic (as I understand it) doesn't allow vague or undefined terms like "is related to" or "produces" or "intends" or such.

The frequent problem with first order logic, or predicate logic (as it is also known) is the unstated presuppositions. It's my observation (here and in other forums were @TonyChanYT posts) that he assumes things as givens and predicates his logic on those assumptions. Quite often the assumptions do not reconcile with whole scripture. This op, like many others, singles out a single passage and does nothing to consider all else the Bible has to say on the matter. That is NOT first order logic. If this op was printed up and handed to a class of grad students in philosophy (where logic is taught) this (and his other "FOL" ops would be laughed at. I, personally, appreciate and admire the attempt...... IF it is made with a heart open to correction. I try to support Tony's ops wherever I can but if I were to guesstimate, I'd say only about 40% of the ops are wholly correct and some of them are so wrong they should be taken down (at least I would be asking the mods to do so if I realized my errors because of the generosity and kindness of others).

I do not think Tony is trying to make faith and works identical, but that is what the first three words of the opening post actually state. I assume that was a mistake, an honest mistake, or one made without proof-reading the post before posting it. On occasion, we all post something we did not intend to mean. the correct response is to amend the error. Most here are patient and tolerant enough to accommodate and appreciate both the correction and the poster who does so.

So far, I know we're all Reformed-minded so the consensus so far, is genuine faith causes faithfulness, not the reverse and not some non-causal mutuality. Causality it not prohibited in FOL.

 

[prism]

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