The Living Tapestry of Redemption

[Arial]

The OT and the NT are not separate parts of redemption, but distinct elements of it. The first, is preparing for the second, the second is the work of redemption accomplished by Jesus, and the promise of the next age of completed fulfillment when Christ returns. It is all one glorious beyond full comprehension, weaving of a living tapestry throughout history. It begins with creation itself. In five days the earth is created and prepared for mankind. On the sixth day man is created.

If we look closely we can see the first threads weave into the tapestry that is both historical and spiritual and that never leaves the pages of the Bible and already speaks of what is to come. Six is the number of man and is not perfect. It relates to human weakness, sin, labor, and human government. It is juxtaposed against the seventh day of rest. God rested from his labor. Mankind enters into rest. There is much more that could be said about this, and probably should be. Hopefully it can be expanded on in whatever conversation results from this OP. If there isn't any, I will do it myself but the input of others is helpful. My point here is that it is a living tapestry of redemption being woven with nothing in the historical account of redemption moving off of it.

That is why it is so important to not separate the two covenants or to separate national Israel from the church at any point or in any way. To do so rips the tapestry.

In Gen 3 when God curses the serpent and promises that the seed of a woman will crush his head, then curses the ground and sets mankind to hard and futile labor, away from his presence and the tree of life, the work of the redemption of all creation through the redemption of men, begins.

I am going to focus on three scriptures in this post. A place where we can see this weaving together in all its breath stopping glory. I do not have anything I am not given, and all that I have, has been given. So I pray that God will give me what I need to express this, and that in whatever way he purposes, it will bear fruit for his kingdom and for his glory. I was reading this morning, in Mark of Jesus celebrating the Passover with his disciples in the Upper Room, just prior to his crucifixion. The way in which I began to see it was not new information, but it was the first time I pictured it in my heart and mind, this analogy of a living tapestry of redemption being woven together in the pages of Scripture, and the importance, dare I say extreme importance, of keeping that tapestry in our understanding and in Bible interpretation, always intact. Never separating any part of the historical account from any other. Never at any point or for any reason, making one tapestry into two.

The first will be from Exodus 12:1-28 just prior to Israel's rescue from bondage in Egypt and is the institution of the Feast of Passover.

Ex 12: 5-6 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two door posts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it." 12-13 "For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land, both man and beast; and on the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord. The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where your are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt."

The second is from Mark 14:12-25
12. "And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, 'Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"

22-24 "And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, 'Take, this is my body.' And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them and they all drank of it. And he said to them, 'This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many."

The third is from 1 Cor 5.

6-8 " Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

 

[Arial]

No one has anything to say or contribute?

 

[makesends]

That is why it is so important to not separate the two covenants or to separate national Israel from the church at any point or in any way. To do so rips the tapestry.

Not sure what you mean here. I know you aren't saying that all national Israel will be saved... Or are you differentiating between 'national Israel' and 'physical (biological) Israel'?

 

[Arial]

Not sure what you mean here. I know you aren't saying that all national Israel will be saved... Or are you differentiating between 'national Israel' and 'physical (biological) Israel'?

Israel as a nation separated from the church as dispensationalism does. It separates the two covenants as not connected. The covenant with Israel (God's people as opposed to "not God's people") is a distinct covenant within the covenant of redemption. Not separate from it. It precedes the coming of Christ, presents him in types and shadows and prophecy, makes way for him, brings him forth as true Israel (God's people). There is one people of God. See the tear?

The first statement of the Covenant of Redemption is "The seed of the woman will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel."

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

No one has anything to say or contribute?

Other than, "Amen, I agree"? No, sorry.

 

[makesends]

The OT and the NT are not separate parts of redemption, but distinct elements of it. The first, is preparing for the second, the second is the work of redemption accomplished by Jesus, and the promise of the next age of completed fulfillment when Christ returns. It is all one glorious beyond full comprehension, weaving of a living tapestry throughout history. It begins with creation itself. In five days the earth is created and prepared for mankind. On the sixth day man is created.

If we look closely we can see the first threads weave into the tapestry that is both historical and spiritual and that never leaves the pages of the Bible and already speaks of what is to come. Six is the number of man and is not perfect. It relates to human weakness, sin, labor, and human government. It is juxtaposed against the seventh day of rest. God rested from his labor. Mankind enters into rest. There is much more that could be said about this, and probably should be. Hopefully it can be expanded on in whatever conversation results from this OP. If there isn't any, I will do it myself but the input of others is helpful. My point here is that it is a living tapestry of redemption being woven with nothing in the historical account of redemption moving off of it.

That is why it is so important to not separate the two covenants or to separate national Israel from the church at any point or in any way. To do so rips the tapestry.

In Gen 3 when God curses the serpent and promises that the seed of a woman will crush his head, then curses the ground and sets mankind to hard and futile labor, away from his presence and the tree of life, the work of the redemption of all creation through the redemption of men, begins.

I am going to focus on three scriptures in this post. A place where we can see this weaving together in all its breath stopping glory. I do not have anything I am not given, and all that I have, has been given. So I pray that God will give me what I need to express this, and that in whatever way he purposes, it will bear fruit for his kingdom and for his glory. I was reading this morning, in Mark of Jesus celebrating the Passover with his disciples in the Upper Room, just prior to his crucifixion. The way in which I began to see it was not new information, but it was the first time I pictured it in my heart and mind, this analogy of a living tapestry of redemption being woven together in the pages of Scripture, and the importance, dare I say extreme importance, of keeping that tapestry in our understanding and in Bible interpretation, always intact. Never separating any part of the historical account from any other. Never at any point or for any reason, making one tapestry into two.

The first will be from Exodus 12:1-28 just prior to Israel's rescue from bondage in Egypt and is the institution of the Feast of Passover.

Ex 12: 5-6 "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight. Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two door posts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it." 12-13 "For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land, both man and beast; and on the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the Lord. The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where your are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I strike the land of Egypt."

The second is from Mark 14:12-25
12. "And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, 'Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"

22-24 "And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, 'Take, this is my body.' And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them and they all drank of it. And he said to them, 'This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many."

The third is from 1 Cor 5.

6-8 " Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

I'm not sure if what you are seeing here is the same thing as what CS Lewis refers to as 'The Great Joke' (or words to that effect), and what I think of as the huge riddle, that when we finally see it, we will all (figuratively) smack our foreheads, realizing it was right in front of us the whole time.

 

[Hazelelponi]

No one has anything to say or contribute?

I've just noticed this thread... Good thread. I just the other day was thinking of the exodus passages myself, just in a slightly different context perhaps.

Ithink this is why I read the old testament so much, because everytime I recite from the old testament we can look back through history and see just how many fulfilled promises there are attached to that verse that we can actually see as fulfilled. .

This of course gives us absolute confidence in Christ going forward, knowing that all is fulfilled in Christ and so the handful of promises left for us are equally counted in our hearts as just as fulfilled. .

All we are to do is walk in the fulfillment God has promised. Time is no matter, all was already done. Time to simply live in it.

The tapestry is a beautiful thing to see... Even more beautiful still when we finally see it from above.

 

[Arial]

I've just noticed this thread... Good thread. I just the other day was thinking of the exodus passages myself, just in a slightly different context perhaps.

Ithink this is why I read the old testament so much, because everytime I recite from the old testament we can look back through history and see just how many fulfilled promises there are attached to that verse that we can actually see as fulfilled. .

This of course gives us absolute confidence in Christ going forward, knowing that all is fulfilled in Christ and so the handful of promises left for us are equally counted in our hearts as just as fulfilled. .

All we are to do is walk in the fulfillment God has promised. Time is no matter, all was already done. Time to simply live in it.

The tapestry is a beautiful thing to see... Even more beautiful still when we finally see it from above.

I like the idea that the entire Bible is one living tapestry of one thing----redemption. It is not just a tapestry hung on a wall, but it is continuously being woven together as it plays out in our history. And this is so because it is God in Christ doing the weaving, it is God who enters into our history to weave, and who by the indwelling Holy Spirit is still weaving, even though he has already given what the destination is, in the pages of his word for our comfort and sure hope.

 

[Arial]

I'm not sure if what you are seeing here is the same thing as what CS Lewis refers to as 'The Great Joke' (or words to that effect), and what I think of as the huge riddle, that when we finally see it, we will all (figuratively) smack our foreheads, realizing it was right in front of us the whole time.

I don't know what C.S. Lewis refers to as "The Great Joke". But I would never call what I am seeing as a joke of any kind. We can see what I am calling the "Living Tapestry of Redemption" right now. I gave one example in the OP. It is living because God is still weaving and was always weaving. And because this weaving of everything together for redemption is played out in real life, all the time. God, of course, is not weaving it for himself, to him it is all ordained and complete in that sense. He is weaving it for us, in history, in life, in time, for us to see.

It is made evident in the pages of scripture, from the first to the last. As long as we keep it in our minds and hearts as one "story" (his- story), as to its central theme and purpose---redemption---as permeating every page, we will still have a lot of questions as humans always do. And many of those questions cannot be answered by our minds, those deep and secret things of God. But what we do have is a knowledge of him that feeds trust in him and worship of him.

And when Jesus returns, and redemption is made complete, we will be a part of that tapestry, living in it. An analogy of that, and even the longing for it, is something concerning me, in my childhood, and I suspect many have had the same type of thing. We had a painting in our house, a landscape, of scattered trees and a valley with cattle grazing and a stream. It was so dimensional, so perfectly depicted, that I would often stare at it, almost but not quite, being able to imagine myself in it, and longing, really longing, to be able to be in it.

 

[makesends]

I'm having a bit of a time figuring out where you are speaking in the abstract. You say national Israel (God's people as opposed to "not God's people"). Then, I am taking you right to be speaking as National Israel relates to the tapestry—i.e. not all national Israel will be saved, but just as "God's people".

I'm trying to diagram this 'tapestry' in my head, trying to understand just what you are calling fabric and what isn't. I can see the enormous mistake of dispensationalism here, but, in fact, they (some of them, anyway), would say that since in the end all Israel will be saved, THEY are the ones keeping the tapestry intact.

Later edit: Actually, I'm not so much trying to diagram the 'tapestry' in my head, but trying to see what you consider 'tapestry', wondering how you would diagram it —interlinking flowchart, or what.

 

[Hazelelponi]

... Nevermind.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I like the idea that the entire Bible is one living tapestry of one thing----redemption. It is not just a tapestry hung on a wall, but it is continuously being woven together as it plays out in our history. And this is so because it is God in Christ doing the weaving, it is God who enters into our history to weave, and who by the indwelling Holy Spirit is still weaving, even though he has already given what the destination is, in the pages of his word for our comfort and sure hope.

Amen and Amen!

 

[makesends]

I don't know what C.S. Lewis refers to as "The Great Joke". But I would never call what I am seeing as a joke of any kind.

Tangential, but, Lewis considered the best humor coming from taking one another seriously. I see that when we get to Heaven, gratitude, amazement at God's wisdom, shock, and, in particular, the ironies in the answers to the riddles and paradoxes, the interweaving (not intending a reference to the 'tapestry', but, for lack of a better way to put it) of His Simplicity with His Particularity, all of which, and more, would induce weeping from being overwhelmed here on this temporal plain, but there, add up to what I think Lewis was talking about with "The Great Joke". Overwhelming amazement (both intellectual and experiential), admiration and thankfulness.

 

[Arial]

We are Israel.

Not all Israel is Israel. Israel physical was to bring the only begotten Son, our Messiah, into the world - the Messiah who then brings us all into the New Covenant by His blood - Jew and Gentiles both, so that we are all one family of God.

(Maybe we should have a teaching on inheritance and Jesus being Israel and though He's the younger He inherits (from His Father) as the elder brother, meaning the right to rule the family and expand lands is the right of Jesus Christ as the inheriting head of the children of God)

We are the Israel safe under the Covenant with God, who are made up of every tribe and tongue, not genetic Hebrews of our day who live in Israel or who follow the Jewish faith as they interpret it.

It is perhaps God will remember them once more and open their hearts to the Gospel. It is perhaps He won't. The future is in His Hand alone, it is to us to live in accordance with His will today. Taking each situation as it comes in prayerful consideration of His Divine Will, searching scriptures not to divine the future but rather to figure out how to meet the day as we face it.

I have to say that's what can be difficult. Lol ..

I didn't think this was particularly controversial - if it is I suppose we should all discuss.

@makesends

The controversy comes about in dispensationalism. And I say that at the risk of a conversation starting that should be in the end times forum----the battle for dispensationalism. So let me just explain what I mean, and how it rends the tapestry in two instead of the curtain into the Holy of Holies. (Tongue in cheek.)

In dispensationalism there are two of the dispensations which tear the fabric of redemption that they use as a framework for interpreting Scripture in both testaments. One is the dispensations is the time period of the Sinai Covenant with Israel as a people and nation. The other is a whole other dispensation in which God deals with the church, both Jew and Gentile believer. And this is the New Covenant. The old covenant is torn down for a time, but renewed for a thousand years when Christ returns, while God restores the land of Israel back to the Jews, with Christ on the throne. That is what they call the covenant with David, and the land grant covenant with Abraham, being fulfilled as promised. When that is finished, then and only then, are those saved in what they call the Church age, brought back to the restored earth.

In essence they do not have Christ already enthroned, or having already conquered sin and death on the cross. They do not recognize the Covenant of redemption beginning before the covenant with Israel, except in the land grant covenant promised to the natural descendants of Abraham. Now there is more than one branch of dispensationalism, but in general this is how the division in the tapestry is made. It becomes two separate tapestries.

If I have not made it clear what I mean, which is entirely possible!, tell me, and I will try and clarify.

 

[Arial]

I'm having a bit of a time figuring out where you are speaking in the abstract. You say national Israel (God's people as opposed to "not God's people"). Then, I am taking you right to be speaking as National Israel relates to the tapestry—i.e. not all national Israel will be saved, but just as "God's people".

I'm trying to diagram this 'tapestry' in my head, trying to understand just what you are calling fabric and what isn't. I can see the enormous mistake of dispensationalism here, but, in fact, they (some of them, anyway), would say that since in the end all Israel will be saved, THEY are the ones keeping the tapestry intact.

Later edit: Actually, I'm not so much trying to diagram the 'tapestry' in my head, but trying to see what you consider 'tapestry', wondering how you would diagram it —interlinking flowchart, or what.

The Bible is the story of redemption in our history. Period. It has many parts, spans thousands of years, penned my many authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There are no disconnects, side trips. divisions, pauses, backward steps, in its accounting for us in Scripture. There is nothing superfluous. It is one story, one thing seamlessly flowing into the next thing as redemption progresses towards Christ and then after the incarnation to his return and he fills all in all.

The plan was before creation. The first act of mercy was the clothing of Adam and Eve. The first announcement of redemption---the gospel was in Gen 3:15. I cannot be of any aid in causing you to see it metaphorically as a tapestry, anymore than we can know what the sorrow or joy of another feels like to them. And it isn't necessary either.


But think about what a tapestry is.

A heavy cloth woven with rich, often varicolored designs or scenes. A complexity or richness of design, woven together seamlessly.

 

[makesends]

The Bible is the story of redemption in our history. Period. It has many parts, spans thousands of years, penned my many authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There are no disconnects, side trips. divisions, pauses, backward steps, in its accounting for us in Scripture. There is nothing superfluous. It is one story, one thing seamlessly flowing into the next thing as redemption progresses towards Christ and then after the incarnation to his return and he fills all in all.

The plan was before creation. The first act of mercy was the clothing of Adam and Eve. The first announcement of redemption---the gospel was in Gen 3:15. I cannot be of any aid in causing you to see it metaphorically as a tapestry, anymore than we can know what the sorrow or joy of another feels like to them. And it isn't necessary either.


But think about what a tapestry is.

A heavy cloth woven with rich, often varicolored designs or scenes. A complexity or richness of design, woven together seamlessly.

Yes, I got all that.

My problem, as usual with everyone, is the manner or mode in which a person talks/writes. I'm trying to get accommodated into your mindset there, to follow what you are saying.

Some people think they are being plain, but someone else doesn't get it. Happens all the time.

I see the tapestry, and I relate it to the covenant, which in a way is another facet of redemption. And I can agree with you on how all fact fits into this tapestry, I noticed that right from the OP, by your description of its pervasiveness, because I have long since concluded that there is NOTHING that God does or has done that actually 'goes to waste' —certainly, nothing that is useless, but I mean, everything has meaning in Heaven. And I expect you know that I mean, that is everything—because everything descends logically from God. And in Heaven, I think, "meaning" is fact. I speculate that when we are there, we will not 'refer to' anything when we speak, but we will see fact, instead. (Yeah, I know, that isn't a good way to put what I really think, but it's a starter...)

 

[Arial]

Yes, I got all that.

My problem, as usual with everyone, is the manner or mode in which a person talks/writes. I'm trying to get accommodated into your mindset there, to follow what you are saying.

Some people think they are being plain, but someone else doesn't get it. Happens all the time.

I see the tapestry, and I relate it to the covenant, which in a way is another facet of redemption. And I can agree with you on how all fact fits into this tapestry, I noticed that right from the OP, by your description of its pervasiveness, because I have long since concluded that there is NOTHING that God does or has done that actually 'goes to waste' —certainly, nothing that is useless, but I mean, everything has meaning in Heaven. And I expect you know that I mean, that is everything—because everything descends logically from God. And in Heaven, I think, "meaning" is fact. I speculate that when we are there, we will not 'refer to' anything when we speak, but we will see fact, instead. (Yeah, I know, that isn't a good way to put what I really think, but it's a starter...)

While all that is true, except for that last part which is speculation, my purpose in comparing the working out of redemption as a tapestry was two fold. First, for the almost musical and simple beauty of it. And second, to set solid ground to viewing the Bible and interpretation of it, as a unity of forward movement, all pieces connected and necessary and perfectly ordered. The subject, whether in the foreground or background at any given moment, always redemption in Christ. Forming one integrated and glorious tapestry of rich color and depth. One thread is woven into another.

 

[makesends]

While all that is true, except for that last part which is speculation, my purpose in comparing the working out of redemption as a tapestry was two fold. First, for the almost musical and simple beauty of it. And second, to set solid ground to viewing the Bible and interpretation of it, as a unity of forward movement, all pieces connected and necessary and perfectly ordered. The subject, whether in the foreground or background at any given moment, always redemption in Christ. Forming one integrated and glorious tapestry of rich color and depth. One thread is woven into another.

Not that many participants couldn't/can't participate in describing the 'tapestry' and the particular portions within it, but, in my opinion, there is almost no end to the layer upon layer of 3-dimensional interweaving to the whole story.

I guess I'm saying that I feel almost lost just by glimpses when I see them, and see too much at once to take in or to be able to describe. My words jumble upon one-another, until it all sounds like foolishness even to me. It becomes no longer doctrine, but vague attempts to define speculative notions.

 

[Arial]

Not that many participants couldn't/can't participate in describing the 'tapestry' and the particular portions within it, but, in my opinion, there is almost no end to the layer upon layer of 3-dimensional interweaving to the whole story.

I guess I'm saying that I feel almost lost just by glimpses when I see them, and see too much at once to take in or to be able to describe. My words jumble upon one-another, until it all sounds like foolishness even to me. It becomes no longer doctrine, but vague attempts to define speculative notions.

No doubt. We could go 10,000 years discovering and discussing the ways in which something in the OT for example, in the natural, is brought to life in its relation to Christ and redemption. There simply is no end to it. God is multifaceted on an infinite level. The NASB uses that word in Eph 3:8-10 "To me, the very least of all saints,this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to enlighten all people as to what the plan of the mystery is which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things; so that the multifaceted wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places." (Interesting that the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places did not even know what God was doing from day one.) Many versions translate"multifaceted" as "manifold". But I like "multifaceted".

Another visual of this is the kaleidoscope.