The Heart of the Gospel- The Resurrection

[civic]

I think we're on the same page. I prefer the natural, mortal body vs supernatural/spiritual body. But it sounds like you're saying the same thing. Physical/natural/mortal body does not of course equate to "flesh" = sinful (which would have Paul supporting Gnostic dualism). And spiritual body doesn't mean a disembodied spirit/soul (for the same reason, and also because that's Platonic, not Judaic belief).

But the word "spiritual" does throw people because "spiritual" means something quite different today then it did then. In fact, if I recall correctly, "spiritual" is a wholly Christian concept that originated with Paul, the apostles, etc, and that means something along the lines of, "of the [Holy] Spirit." Hence, all the metaphors of sowing to the flesh vs the Spirit. And being born of the Spirit.

But because this is easily confused, I like the clarifying "natural" vs "supernatural" body to avoid thinking the resurrection body is a nonphysical disembodied spirit "body," which would make no sense in either Jewish or pagan thought.

Resurrection always meant physical, bodily resurrection, but like Jesus's resurrection body it is not a resuscitation of the mortal, decaying body back to life (like Lazarus, who still died later on), but a supernaturally transformed incorruptible body that will never see decay.

The Pharisees, of course, believed the resurrection wouldn't happen until the end times Judgment Day by God at the end of the world, and that this would be a 'national' resurrection of all the true, non apostate remnant Israelites.

But the idea of resurrection of a single individual was beyond comprehension in 2nd Temple Judaism. That is what makes Jesus's resurrection so radical. It's not simply coming back to life. 1 Corinthians 15 is teaching that the end-time Judgment Day resurrection that won't happen until the end of the world has already started in the person of Jesus Christ and the rest of us will soon follow suit. This is the inaugurated now-but-not-yet eschatology we see in the NT. The end of the world Judgment Day resurrection has already started---it started with Jesus. Jesus's resurrection signals the beginning-of-the-end! Pretty heavy thought!

Looks like we are on the same page too. How can we not be since we both like Hurtado and Lincona.

 

[Eleanor]

Natural, yes, but not necessarily sinful! Adam was just as fleshy in his original state, just like Jesus was in the incarnation. Completely human, and thus mortal, perishable, yet without sin. To be human does not necessarily mean sinful.

Paul uses "flesh" to mean the sinful nature, not collagen.

 

[Eleanor]

Which would mean flesh is the physical nature, not spiritual.

In 1 Co 15, the natural physical body is characterized by sin (perishable, dishonorable, weak),
while the spiritual physical body is characterized by sinlessness (imperishable, glorious, powerful).

There is no natural physical body of flesh and blood this side of the resurrection not characterized by sin.
Flesh and blood is always the natural physical body, which body is always characterized by sin.

It is only the spiritual physical body on the other side of the resurrection that is not characterized by sin, but by sinlessness.
Paul never speaks of the "natural" physical body apart from sin, because there is no such thing.

 

[TB2]

Paul uses "flesh" to mean the sinful nature, not collagen.

Paul means neither, since collagen was unknown, and Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about a whole person's physical body which is mortal and will eventually die. To adopt your view is to say that the whole physical, human body itself is sinful, which neither Jews nor Christians believed, but *pagans* did, which also gave rise to later Gnostic heresy/dualism, which says the material, physical is intrinsically sinful, and only the spirit/soul is nonsinful. This is why Gnostics accepted Christ's glorification rejected the incarnation and His humanity, because the physical, material body is sinful, evil.

 

[Eleanor]

Paul means neither, since collagen was unknown,

Not knowing about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He probably didn't know about oxygen, but he breathed it nevertheless.

and Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about a whole person's physical body which is mortal and will eventually die. To adopt your view is to say that the whole physical, human body itself is sinful,

Then what part is not sinful?
Human nature is sinful, and that is all of me.

which neither Jews nor Christians believed, but *pagans* did, which also gave rise to later Gnostic heresy/dualism, which says the material, physical is intrinsically sinful, and only the spirit/soul is nonsinful. This is why Gnostics accepted Christ's glorification rejected the incarnation and His humanity, because the physical, material body is sinful, evil.

Red herring.

What Gnostics believe has nothing to do with Christian truth.

 

[TB2]

In 1 Co 15, the natural physical body is characterized by sin (perishable, dishonorable, weak),
while the spiritual physical body is characterized by sinlessness (imperishable, glorious, powerful

None of these words are the words for sin.

There is no natural physical body of flesh and blood this side of the resurrection not characterized by sin.
Flesh and blood is always the natural physical body, which body is always characterized by sin

The physical body is not sinful. That's Gnostic dualism. The physical body is mortal. That l whole section 1 Corinthians 15.35-58 is focused on mortality. Thus, Adam's body was made from dust (by God! Did God make Adam a sinful body?) and to dust we will return. And then near the end of the the chapter, "O death where is thy sting?"--it's all about mortality. This body is mortal, but at the judgment day resurrection we will receive an immortal, glorified resurrected body like Jesus that will never know decay.

In v. 35-40 Paul tells us not all flesh is the same and there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, another for fish, and "God gives it a body as he has chosen and to each kind." If we adopt your view, that makes God the one who gave us the evil, sinful body.

*The bottom line: the 1 Corinthians 15.35-58 passage you refer to, does not contain one single reference to sin, much less state that "flesh and blood" is intrinsically sinful.

 

[TB2]

Not knowing about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He probably didn't know about oxygen, but he breathed it nevertheless.

The point is, Paul must be interpreted in context. If he didn't know about collagen he's can't be referring to it

 

[TB2]

Human nature is sinful, and that is all of me.

Human nature, yes. The physical body, no. It is not what goes into a man, but the evil that comes out of man, the evil thoughts and evil things man does

 

[TB2]

Not knowing about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He probably didn't know about oxygen, but he breathed it nevertheless.

Then what part is not sinful?
Human nature is sinful, and that is all of me.

Red herring.

What Gnostics believe has nothing to do with Christian truth.

The first and second century Christians would disagree because Gnosticism and its incipient forms like docetism were among the first heresies the church had to combat. That's why in 1 John, John says whatever says Jesus Christ has not come in the flesh is antichrist. Because docetists/gnostics believed the "flesh" was sinful. According to 1 John, Jesus did come in the flesh, does that mean Jesus was sinful?

 

[TibiasDad]

In 1 Co 15, the natural physical body is characterized by sin (perishable, dishonorable, weak),
while the spiritual physical body is characterized by sinlessness (imperishable, glorious, powerful).

There is no natural physical body of flesh and blood this side of the resurrection not characterized by sin.
Flesh and blood is always the natural physical body, which body is always characterized by sin.

It is only the spiritual physical body on the other side of the resurrection that is not characterized by sin, but by sinlessness.
Paul never speaks of the "natural" physical body apart from sin, because there is no such thing.

Adam was not sinful in his original state! He was peccable, but not sinful. He was mortal, susceptible to decay and even death.

Jesus was not sinful in his incarnation, but he was mortal in every way as Adam was.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

What Gnostics believe has nothing to do with Christian truth.

Correct, so why are you agreeing with them?

Doug

 

[Eleanor]

Adam was not sinful in his original state! He was peccable, but not sinful. He was mortal, susceptible to decay and even death.

Jesus was not sinful in his incarnation, but he was mortal in every way as Adam was.

Agreed.

 

[Eleanor]

Correct, so why are you agreeing with them?

I give up, why?

 

[TibiasDad]

Agreed.

Then to be human is not to necessary be sinful. The human body is affected by sin, but is not sinful in itself. The spiritual heart of man is what becomes sinful, the inward desires affect the body’s actions.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I give up, why?

You are saying precisely what the Gnostics said! Only you know the reason why.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

Adam was not sinful in his original state! He was peccable, but not sinful. He was mortal, susceptible to decay and even death.

Jesus was not sinful in his incarnation, but he was mortal in every way as Adam was.

Doug

Was Jesus peccable ?

 

[Eleanor]

Then to be human is not to necessary be sinful. The human body is affected by sin, but is not sinful in itself. The spiritual heart of man is what becomes sinful, the inward desires affect the body’s actions;

Paul uses "flesh" to refer to the sinful nature.

 

[Josheb]

If we look at what Paul is saying in this passage, it is that corruptible flesh and blood shall not enter the kingdom. Paul says corruptible does not inherit the incorruptible. Paul is not saying the resurrection body will not have flesh but what he declares is that the resurrected body will not have perishable flesh. Remember in Luke Jesus said see here My hands and feet, touch Me a spirit/ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Peter, Paul and John all agree that Jesus still had flesh well after His ascension. 1 John being the last of the books of the three Apostles declared that Jesus having come in the flesh and those who deny this are the spirit of antichrist. John makes it clear that the Incarnation was permanent. Jesus is forever both God and man. This is what Paul teaches in the whole 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians. The glorious physical bodies that we will have in the resurrection. We will have incorruptible bodies just as Jesus now has in heaven.

I will add to this with the premise Jesus has always been the resurrection and the life; the only one by whom any can come to the Father. It is not contingent on the existence of sin. Sin is addressed by the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus, but it's not the only reason he came. This same 1 Corinthians 15 passage to which you appeal tells us one of the problems to be solved was our corruptibility, not our corruptedness. We were sown corruptible (or perishable). That's not a reference to the grave. If it were then the term would be "corrupted." By the term a person dies s/he is already sinful, already corrupted. That's a problem, but so too is the condition of corruptibility. We were corruptible in Eden! Long before Adam ate the forbidden fruit in Genesis 3:6 God had declared us good, but Paul informed us the good, sinless and unashamed Adam and Eve could sin. Why did the sin?

Because they could.

That changes in the resurrection. We will be raised incorruptible and immortal. Having been sown on earth corruptible and mortal, the conclusion found in Christ is to be raised incorruptible and immortal. Sin was just flies to be swished away at Calvary. God's plan was much larger than that. He was making sons and daughters.

 

[TB2]

Paul uses "flesh" to refer to the sinful nature.

Where in 1 Corinthians 15 does it say "flesh" = the sinful nature?

 

[TB2]

This same 1 Corinthians 15 passage to which you appeal tells us one of the problems to be solved was our corruptibility, not our corruptedness. We were sown corruptible (or perishable). That's not a reference to the grave. If it were then the term would be "corrupted." By the term a person dies s/he is already sinful, already corrupted.

Except that Paul isn't referring to corruption due to sin, but "corruptible" = "perishable" like you said above. It's a reference to mortality, that our physical bodies are mortal, and subject to decay, and death.

1 Corinthians 15 is a contrast between our current mortal bodies that will decay and die vs our resurrection bodies that will be immortal and never decay.