• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

The Believer and His Fallen Nature: Where the Flesh Holds Tight to the Forbidden Fruit.

Arial

Admin
Staff member
Joined
May 27, 2023
Messages
8,017
Reaction score
7,730
Points
175
Faith
Christian/Reformed
Country
US
Politics
conservative
There is a false teaching that has nearly taken over the church. It is a teaching that directly attacks the traditional doctrines of grace (TULIP) of the Reformation. It was the intent of those who first began to spread it, the most well known being Charles Finney, to do so and it was an attack fed by Satan and I suspect he laughed all the while. And the reason it was so successful was because it is the very thing the serpent fed our first parents. "You will know----you will be like God." In other words they would be free of him and have no need of him, and according to the serpent, God was a jealous liar anyway. After all, the fruit looked good, probably tasted good, how could it be bad? It appealed to itching ears. A salvation that requires nothing of them but to answer an altar call and say a prayer inviting Jesus to come into their life. Then they can be saved from hell, and live however they please in some cases. In all cases, free of learning the deep doctrinal foundations of the faith they profess.

For with the entry of this teaching, traditional Protestant doctrine came to be seen as a hindrance and unnecessary. A door was opened for any teaching and any false teacher to come into the church and teach whatever pleased him. There was no grounding of the flock. The world and culture came in instead and the inability to discern right from wrong. It is the sheep who suffer because of this, for truly some are his sheep. It brings to my mind Ez 34, which should be a dire warning. And here be butt right up against another false teaching that came through the same door as the first, that would ignore that prophecy because it is seen as only applying to Israel, when in fact it is the very heart of an unchanging God.

The teaching I speak of here is that God would never choose who to save and leave the rest to destruction. It is seen as unfair, and a just God would never be unfair, therefore he gave us a will free to choose whether to believe in Christ or not. It does not undo his sovereignty it is said, because he sovereignly chose to do that. Which is a ludicrous, illogical statement, but I digress. It does not matter in this system or to those caught up in it, that the Bible no where teaches any such thing. They make it say that by pointing out that God asks them to choose between obeying or disobeying the Sinai Covenant stipulations. Or every time the command to repent is given or when it says "all those who believe". But of course they infer the word "choose" into those passages, and fail to recognize that choosing between two options is not the same thing as choosing to believe in Christ.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that most likely those who insist that God must let them make a choice of whether or not to be saved, otherwise they are not responsible for their unbelief, do not see that it is the same lie that Adam and Eve fell for. More than that, it is because of the "old creature" still lurking inside of us and at war with our spirit. Certainly when this is pointed out, it is denied. But it is denied on principle and because of never having been grounded in sound doctrine: Not from the pulpit, the media, the written material that comes from the same school of thought. And not having done it themselves.

The flesh fights above all else to maintain at least some supposed autonomy, bred into us and our nature, so to speak, from the very transgression in the Garden of Eden. And this teaching of a will that is "free" to make up our own mind whether or not to accept Jesus as our Savior, satisfies that desire. Even if the person who has fallen for the lie does not in any way recognize that, it is still the case. We have grown adept at hiding from ourselves, but we cannot hide from God.

If the Bible is parsed from its whole to try and defend that position, tooth and nail, when the assertions are proved clearly and definitive from Scripture to be a gross misuse of Scripture that creates contradiction in God's word all over the place, it can only be done by a stubborn refusal to back down. Our flesh puts up a fierce battle in this regard, that requires us to deliberately shut our eyes and stop up our ears to what we are being shown. And we hide that from ourselves too.

But the really sad thing, the devastating thing to one's Christian walk, is what is missing. And that is growing in the true knowledge of God, communing with him as he is. Being truly submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Of learning who he is, more and more, and basking in his glory, gaining spiritual strength, growing instead of standing still.

Ask him to show you the truth of the matter, instead of telling him the truth of the matter. Ask him to give you a desire to know his truth above all else, no matter what it is, or whether or not you like it. Put him first. Ask him to tear down the strongholds that have been established against his truth.

The other option is to be complacently satisfied with what one has, believing there is nothing more, and needing nothing more.
 
There is a false teaching that has nearly taken over the church. It is a teaching that directly attacks the traditional doctrines of grace (TULIP) of the Reformation. It was the intent of those who first began to spread it, the most well known being Charles Finney, to do so and it was an attack fed by Satan and I suspect he laughed all the while.
I wonder if the 'T' in TULIP should be total dependency instead of total depravity?
 
I wonder if the 'T' in TULIP should be total dependency instead of total depravity?
Although Total Depravity is somewhat misleading, or can be, if one doesn't study the actual doctrinal position, total dependency would not express the doctrine at all. What is meant by "depravity" here, and the totalness of it is that the fall affected every aspect of the human being, including his will. There is no island in mankind that is free of sin. As such, his very sinfulness makes him an enemy of God, and God an enemy to him.
 
What is meant by "depravity" here, and the totalness of it is that the fall affected every aspect of the human being, including his will.
Which is why man is totally dependent on God, even His will.
 
The teaching I speak of here is that God would never choose who to save and leave the rest to destruction. It is seen as unfair, and a just God would never be unfair, therefore he gave us a will free to choose whether to believe in Christ or not. It does not undo his sovereignty it is said, because he sovereignly chose to do that. Which is a ludicrous, illogical statement, but I digress. It does not matter in this system or to those caught up in it, that the Bible no where teaches any such thing. They make it say that by pointing out that God asks them to choose between obeying or disobeying the Sinai Covenant stipulations. Or every time the command to repent is given or when it says "all those who believe". But of course they infer the word "choose" into those passages, and fail to recognize that choosing between two options is not the same thing as choosing to believe in Christ....

But the really sad thing, the devastating thing to one's Christian walk, is what is missing. And that is growing in the true knowledge of God, communing with him as he is. Being truly submitted to the Lordship of Christ. Of learning who he is, more and more, and basking in his glory, gaining spiritual strength, growing instead of standing still....

The other option is to be complacently satisfied with what one has, believing there is nothing more, and needing nothing more.
Unfortunately, I've run into this a lot, and find it depressing. As you know I spent a lot of time in non- and anti-Calvinist churches. Other people think everyone is free to choose, but the lifestyle doesn't change for everyone. And preachers don't want to offend people when giving sermons. I think they ought to at least have a class about the meaning of being a Christian.
 
Which is why man is totally dependent on God, even His will

Total depravity exposes our situation as sinners in need of forgiveness and guidance.
 
Christians don't have fallen natures.
 
I'm finding instructions on walking in the Spirit. :) Bible reading is very healthy!
 
Christians don't have fallen natures.
Tell Luther and Calvin that.

"Both Martin Luther and John Calvin embraced the concept of "simul iustus et peccator," which translates to "at the same time just and a sinner." This doctrine emphasizes that believers are both justified by faith, meaning they are considered righteous in God's eyes, and yet still struggle with sin.

Luther's understanding of simul iustus et peccator stemmed from his close study of Paul's writings, particularly Romans and Galatians. He saw this as a paradox that Christians experience, being both a child of God and an enemy of God, holy and profane. Calvin also valued this doctrine, seeing it as a key part of the Gospel.

While Calvin was known for his systematic theology, he also recognized the ongoing struggle with sin in believers' lives, according to the AP Euro Blog. He saw this as a reality that believers must face with the power of God's grace,"
Google's AI
 
I'm finding instructions on walking in the Spirit. :) Bible reading is very healthy!
If we are 'led by the Spirit', why would we need instructions on walking in the Spirit?

Romans 8:14 KJV
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 
If we are 'led by the Spirit', why would we need instructions on walking in the Spirit?

Romans 8:14 KJV
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The Bible says we have instructions. Should we throw our Bible away? I am led by the Spirit to read and believe God's word.

Aren't Christians living a new life, freed from the power of sin?

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"
2 Corinthians 5:17

"For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation."
Galatians 6:!5

What is new, if it's not our nature?

Wasn't our old sin nature nailed to the cross, so we could walk in newness of life? ???
 
If Luther and Calvin didn't agree with the "new creation" I don't agree with them. But could it be that they are mistranslated or misunderstood?
 
Christians don't have fallen natures.
Well we do and Paul does an excellent job of expressing this in Romans 7. Our nature is not yet changed. That occurs at his return. (1 Cor 15). We are positionally changed now. Placed in Christ through faith and justified before God by that faith. We are declared positionally righteous having Christ's righteousness imputed to us. We will still sin while in the process of God's sanctifying us, but those sins can no longer condemn us, and the resurrection of our bodies is guaranteed. We are in a right now, (fully saved) but not yet (the fullness of our salvation) place right now.
 
If Luther and Calvin didn't agree with the "new creation" I don't agree with them.
Then perhaps you don't agree with the Reformation and would rather be at home in Rome?
 
Then perhaps you don't agree with the Reformation and would rather be at home in Rome?
No, I don't believe in claiming to be a Christian and treating others with contempt, losing you temper, stealing, fornicating, being unfaithful to a spouse, etc.
 
Some Calvinists believe that God changes us.
 
Some Calvinists believe that God changes us.
A part of Calvinism IS that God changes us. He changes our hearts, not our nature. We are by nature turned away from him and he turns us towards him. We were dead in our trespasses, and he brings us to life in Christ.
 
No, I don't believe in claiming to be a Christian and treating others with contempt, losing you temper, stealing, fornicating, being unfaithful to a spouse, etc.

I'm repeating this and asking why Christians think it's okay to continue in the old habits and temptations?


Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
 
Last edited:
I'm repeating this and asking why Christians think it's okay to continue in the old habits and temptations?
I don't know of any regenerate Christians who think it's ok, or have a desire to continue in old habits; and if they do, they need to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith... Do you know of any?

2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 
Back
Top