that if you confess . . . .

[makesends]

I said that the point of this thread is to discuss the means of salvation in connection with Romans 10:9 and then spoke in regard to reasons why someone might want to know that.


If grace is incompatible with works, then God's graciousness is also incompatible with His righteousness and if His graciousness is compatible with His righteousness, then grace is also compatible with works. Grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn our salvation as the result, however, our salvation can still require us to choose to be doers of good works for reasons other than in order to earn it as the result, which are compatible with grace, such as in order to experience it, which is in accordance with verses that I've quoted, so it is not fence riding. I have not changed my position, but rather I am trying to help you to understand it. I didn't claim that the OP was asking about how to experience it.

In the example where the gift is the opportunity to get to experience driving a Ferrari, it does not extrinsically require someone to do the work of driving it in order to earn the opportunity to experience driving it as the result, but it does intrinsically require someone to do the work of driving it in order to have the experience of driving it. My position has been that part of our gift of salvation is this kind of gift insofar as the opportunity to get to experience of being a doer of the Law of Moses is intrinsically part of the gift of Jesus saving us from not being a doer of it. The Law of Moses was given for our good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so it is a gift that we have the benefit of getting to experience and that is how God graciously teaching us to have that experience is intrinsically how He giving us His gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

You say, "If grace is incompatible with works, then God's graciousness is also incompatible with His righteousness and if His graciousness is compatible with His righteousness, then grace is also compatible with works." You do not demonstrate it, in the context of Salvation. You only assert it.

The rest of your post only goes to confuse the original salvation (which is by grace alone, through faith, as a result of regeneration) with the subsequent 'sanctification', which necessarily results from being 'in Christ'. Either it is because of inability to separate the two categories, or because of obfuscation. In your analogy, were it to describe the gift of salvation, there is the command to drive the Ferrari, but no ability to do so.

 

[Soyeong]

You say, "If grace is incompatible with works, then God's graciousness is also incompatible with His righteousness and if His graciousness is compatible with His righteousness, then grace is also compatible with works." You do not demonstrate it, in the context of Salvation. You only assert it.

The rest of your post only goes to confuse the original salvation (which is by grace alone, through faith, as a result of regeneration) with the subsequent 'sanctification', which necessarily results from being 'in Christ'. Either it is because of inability to separate the two categories, or because of obfuscation. In your analogy, were it to describe the gift of salvation, there is the command to drive the Ferrari, but no ability to do so.

Let's start over.

Our salvation has an object that we are being saved from, so what exactly do you think it is that we are being saved from? What is the way that we being saved from it? For example, can someone have salvation is they do not turn from their sin? Do they need to turn from sin before their salvation, after their salvation, or as part of their salvation?

 

[makesends]

Let's start over.

Our salvation has an object that we are being saved from, so what exactly do you think it is that we are being saved from?

They are saved, or they are not saved. Not, being saved. But to answer, "[from what are we] being saved?", from sin's debt/curse/condemnation and from sin's dominion over us.

What is the way that we being saved from it?

What is the way we are being saved from it? Just to emphasize again, we are not being saved. We either are, or are not saved.

For example, can someone have salvation is they do not turn from their sin? Do they need to turn from sin before their salvation, after their salvation, or as part of their salvation?

Do you mean, can someone BE saved if they do not repent (turn from their sin)? The fact of whether or not God saves someone is not related to their choosing to repent. But their repentance is evidence of their salvation. If they do not repent they are not saved. If their repentance is real, being a gift from God, their salvation is real. They will continue to turn from sin the rest of their lives until their body dies. But the repentance is granted to them. It comes as surely with regeneration and faith as their justification and salvation does—even if they don't realize it yet.

 

[JesusFan]

They are saved, or they are not saved. Not, being saved. But to answer, "[from what are we] being saved?", from sin's debt/curse/condemnation and from sin's dominion over us.

What is the way we are being saved from it? Just to emphasize again, we are not being saved. We either are, or are not saved.

Do you mean, can someone BE saved if they do not repent (turn from their sin)? The fact of whether or not God saves someone is not related to their choosing to repent. But their repentance is evidence of their salvation. If they do not repent they are not saved. If their repentance is real, being a gift from God, their salvation is real. They will continue to turn from sin the rest of their lives until their body dies. But the repentance is granted to them. It comes as surely with regeneration and faith as their justification and salvation does—even if they don't realize it yet.

A question I have would be does the Lord require us to first confess and repent of all known sin before can get saved, or is he asking us to repent of trying to save ourselves by what we can do, as in trying by good works?

 

[Arial]

They are saved, or they are not saved. Not, being saved. But to answer, "[from what are we] being saved?", from sin's debt/curse/condemnation and from sin's dominion over us.

What is the way we are being saved from it? Just to emphasize again, we are not being saved. We either are, or are not saved.

Do you mean, can someone BE saved if they do not repent (turn from their sin)? The fact of whether or not God saves someone is not related to their choosing to repent. But their repentance is evidence of their salvation. If they do not repent they are not saved. If their repentance is real, being a gift from God, their salvation is real. They will continue to turn from sin the rest of their lives until their body dies. But the repentance is granted to them. It comes as surely with regeneration and faith as their justification and salvation does—even if they don't realize it yet.

It's like those who heard and believed and were "cut to the quick". That is repentance. Even if you do not immediately repent of all your sins (you don't even know what all of them are) you are broken in a sense with remorse and sorrow over having not believed God. Of having turned away from him. A person does not even know who he is until that happens, that regeneration by the mercy and power of the hand of God laid upon a heart, and eyes, and ears.

 

[makesends]

A question I have would be does the Lord require us to first confess and repent of all known sin before can get saved, or is he asking us to repent of trying to save ourselves by what we can do, as in trying by good works?

No, he doesn't require us to first repent. In fact, I would maintain that we have no valid concept of not only the depth, but the scope, of our sin. We can repent of sinfulness, but even that is only as valid as God's having established it. It is because of God, not us, that repentance means anything other than selfish regret or fitful resolution.

Also, I discount language of, 'God asking us to [do this or that]'. But if you mean, he tells us to stop trying to save ourselves, that construction seems to me, if finished, to imply that we need to depend on him to save us— it seems to me to assume that our salvation still in Synergistic ways depends on our doing something in order for our salvation to be valid.

As unbelievers, we only know from conscience right from wrong, and good vs bad, and intellectual implications of cause and effect concerning useful vs useless passionate activity's consequences. We have no valid concept/understanding of spiritual things. Our "repentance" of itself is meaningless, before God has "installed his Spirit inside us".

On the other hand, it is not useless for the unregenerate to repent. God uses it for his own purposes —for example, to restrain the flesh. Or even (perhaps through its proof of weakness) as a kind of Romans 1 evidence for the existence of God for which they are held responsible.

 

[Carbon]

In your 'heart', which is not just that within the peripheral of knowledge, but deep within you...

Hmmmm. seems to mean, if you really believe deeply? Or just really believe.

 

[Carbon]

A question I have would be does the Lord require us to first confess and repent of all known sin before can get saved,

I say, of course not. Why did He have to die on the cross for the sins you committed if when you confess and repent of your sins, it then takes care of them?

or is he asking us to repent of trying to save ourselves by what we can do, as in trying by good works?

I would think, or at least hope, we would eventually see that we cannot save ourselves.

 

[JesusFan]

I say, of course not. Why did He have to die on the cross for the sins you committed if when you confess and repent of your sins, it then takes care of them?

I would think, or at least hope, we would eventually see that we cannot save ourselves.

Think some though are making salvation a lot harder then they really need to

 

[JesusFan]

No, he doesn't require us to first repent. In fact, I would maintain that we have no valid concept of not only the depth, but the scope, of our sin. We can repent of sinfulness, but even that is only as valid as God's having established it. It is because of God, not us, that repentance means anything other than selfish regret or fitful resolution.

Also, I discount language of, 'God asking us to [do this or that]'. But if you mean, he tells us to stop trying to save ourselves, that construction seems to me, if finished, to imply that we need to depend on him to save us— it seems to me to assume that our salvation still in Synergistic ways depends on our doing something in order for our salvation to be valid.

As unbelievers, we only know from conscience right from wrong, and good vs bad, and intellectual implications of cause and effect concerning useful vs useless passionate activity's consequences. We have no valid concept/understanding of spiritual things. Our "repentance" of itself is meaningless, before God has "installed his Spirit inside us".

On the other hand, it is not useless for the unregenerate to repent. God uses it for his own purposes —for example, to restrain the flesh. Or even (perhaps through its proof of weakness) as a kind of Romans 1 evidence for the existence of God for which they are held responsible.

I am just suggesting that what we need to repent of, to have a change of mind about, would be stop trying to earn salvation, to merit it by good works and just fully lean and rest upon the Lord Jesus and His Cross