Soul Sleep yes or no?

[Josheb]

Same could be said with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Well..... that's a matter of interpretation because those guys were still in the grave and parables are not necessarily real or fact based. I wouldn't base my position on parables treated literally. Elijah and Moses showing up to chat with JC, however, was real and undisputedly so. At any rate, you're right: no soul sleep.

 

[CrowCross]

Well..... that's a matter of interpretation because those guys were still in the grave and parables are not necessarily real or fact based. I wouldn't base my position on parables treated literally. Elijah and Moses showing up to chat with JC, however, was real and undisputedly so. At any rate, you're right: no soul sleep.

I am of the belief the parables are based upon "real life" experiences or experiences that could be true.

 

[Josheb]

I am of the belief the parables are based upon "real life" experiences or experiences that could be true.

Yes (it's doubtful they were entirely invented in any way that could be called falsehood and especially not a lie) but emphasized and embellished for a given purpose other than the simple distribution of historical or geographical fact. I doubt, for example, there is a literal chasm dividing the living and the dead and I doubt anyone on the violent side of eternal judgment has the time to ask for a drop of water .

 

[CrowCross]

Yes (it's doubtful they were entirely invented in any way that could be called falsehood and especially not a lie) but emphasized and embellished for a given purpose other than the simple distribution of historical or geographical fact. I doubt, for example, there is a literal chasm dividing the living and the dead and I doubt anyone on the violent side of eternal judgment has the time to ask for a drop of water .

Perhaps....but I doubt the "geographical" location is strictly 3 dimensions like we currently exist in.

 

[Josheb]

Perhaps....but I doubt the "geographical" location is strictly 3 dimensions like we currently exist in.

I am sure that is also true but I may not have been clear. The word "God" has meaning, and it is scripture that gives us that meaning. The God of the Bible is almighty, sovereignly so, and always and everywhere omni-attributed. When Jesus said the chasm was not traversable, he was not remotely implying God (or he himself) could not traverse that divide. To suggest such a thing would necessarily mean there is a place in creation where the almighty sovereign Creator is not God. I once had a rabbi ask me, "What happens if God shows up in hell? Does it then cease to be hell?" His belief that everywhere in God's presence is bliss. Therefore hell (or at least his understanding of the Christian version) cannot be real. It's hard to tell an educated, experienced, well-respected man he's a fool. Or, at least it is for some . His belief ranks as one of the most stupid things any human has ever uttered and a blunt indication of his own lack of thought and ignorance.


Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.

1 Samuel 6:20
And the men of Beth-shemesh said, “Who is able to stand before the LORD, this holy God?


I do NOT wish to derail this op but this failure to fully grasp the inherent almighty sovereign divine ontology is one of the reasons Dispensational Premillennialism fails. The problem with the Adventist view of life after death is that they use scripture selectively (as is evident in the op). SDAism wasn't originally dispensationalist but most of them are dispensationally premillennial now. Michael Oxentenko would be a textbook/case study example. Rarely can he preach a sermon without interjecting his imminently premillennial apocalyptic views. God's got a warehouse where He stores dead people and he's waiting around for human history to reach the point where He can move on with His plan and empty the graveyard that's not actually a graveyard. It is illogical nonsense built from eisegetically selective use of scripture. Hidden unstated within that premise is that God is not sovereign; He's made Himself dependent on human history; a prisoner, not the sovereign, of time.


Which is why I so often post about the word, "war." That word is a literary device. ALWAYS. The moment we grasp the almightiness of God that becomes self-evident. A finite creature cannot wage any real war against an infinite almighty, sovereign Creator. It is logically impossible. It's like a child trying to blow chewed up wads of paper into a nuclear explosion. The explosion does not even know the child, the paper, the straw, or the breath exist because they are instantly and violently eradicated standing before the blast.

The same sort of nonsense occurs anytime God is said to be waiting on anything in creation. God is not waiting to empty the warehouse of corpses. I happen to subscribe to a modified annihilation position (akin to J. I. Packer or John Stott, not the Millerites, Adventists or JWs) but the SDAs screw it all up by failing to fully grasp the condition of eternity. God does not live in time. He created it. What we await has, for Him, all already happened..... and that did not include temporarily storing billions of dead bodies.

 

[CrowCross]

I am sure that is also true but I may not have been clear. The word "God" has meaning, and it is scripture that gives us that meaning. The God of the Bible is almighty, sovereignly so, and always and everywhere omni-attributed. When Jesus said the chasm was not traversable, he was not remotely implying God (or he himself) could not traverse that divide. To suggest such a thing would necessarily mean there is a place in creation where the almighty sovereign Creator is not God. I once had a rabbi ask me, "What happens if God shows up in hell? Does it then cease to be hell?" His belief that everywhere in God's presence is bliss. Therefore hell (or at least his understanding of the Christian version) cannot be real. It's hard to tell an educated, experienced, well-respected man he's a fool. Or, at least it is for some . His belief ranks as one of the most stupid things any human has ever uttered and a blunt indication of his own lack of thought and ignorance.

God being omnipresent means to me God is in Hell...though the benevolence of God is not expressed.

Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.

1 Samuel 6:20
And the men of Beth-shemesh said, “Who is able to stand before the LORD, this holy God?


I do NOT wish to derail this op but this failure to fully grasp the inherent almighty sovereign divine ontology is one of the reasons Dispensational Premillennialism fails.

Dispensational premillennialism doesn't fail.

The problem with the Adventist view of life after death is that they use scripture selectively (as is evident in the op). SDAism wasn't originally dispensationalist but most of them are dispensationally premillennial now. Michael Oxentenko would be a textbook/case study example. Rarely can he preach a sermon without interjecting his imminently premillennial apocalyptic views. God's got a warehouse where He stores dead people and he's waiting around for human history to reach the point where He can move on with His plan and empty the graveyard that's not actually a graveyard. It is illogical nonsense built from eisegetically selective use of scripture. Hidden unstated within that premise is that God is not sovereign; He's made Himself dependent on human history; a prisoner, not the sovereign, of time.

I've learned you can't lump SDA into one category. I've met some who claim Jesus isn't God and met some who understand Jesus is God.
In fact I know of one personally who doesn't believe in the theta of the pre-rapture or dispensations.

Which is why I so often post about the word, "war." That word is a literary device. ALWAYS. The moment we grasp the almightiness of God that becomes self-evident. A finite creature cannot wage any real war against an infinite almighty, sovereign Creator. It is logically impossible.

I don't disagree..but Satan believes he can. In Satans war Satan tries to "harm" those made in Gods image.

It's like a child trying to blow chewed up wads of paper into a nuclear explosion. The explosion does not even know the child, the paper, the straw, or the breath exist because they are instantly and violently eradicated standing before the blast.

The same sort of nonsense occurs anytime God is said to be waiting on anything in creation. God is not waiting to empty the warehouse of corpses. I happen to subscribe to a modified annihilation position (akin to J. I. Packer or John Stott, not the Millerites, Adventists or JWs) but the SDAs screw it all up by failing to fully grasp the condition of eternity. God does not live in time. He created it. What we await has, for Him, all already happened..... and that did not include temporarily storing billions of dead bodies.

 

[Josheb]

God being omnipresent means to me God is in Hell...though the benevolence of God is not expressed.

Non sequitur. I'm glad you believe hell is not outside of God's presence (I don't think you meant God is literally in hell like all those he tosses there in vengeance), but that has nothing to do with my point.

Dispensational premillennialism doesn't fail.

Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.

Yes, Dispensational Premillennialims does fail. It fails in many ways but relevant to the point I was making, it fails because it rejects the truths Jesus is now king of the earth, his kingdom has been established on earth, there is a single unified kingdom encompassing all of creation, and God can be God but not king.

Jesus' kingdom won't be established until he sets foot on earth.
There are two kingdoms (one in heaven and another on earth, one for Jews and another for Christians)
The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom on earth are different
Satan is the ruler of the air, not Jesus.
Jesus is God, but not king on earth.

These and many other God-is-not-everywhere beliefs contained within Dispensationalism can be found in many of the threads here in this board. Some Dispensational Premillennialists try to justify themselves by say, "Well, that's not a specific belief I believe," but then the go one to propagate positions that inherently and necessarily mean the exact same thing: there are places where God is not yet God and Jesus is not yet king. When someone says, "Nunh uhn," they're not helping their case.

Dispensational Premillennialism doesn't fail.

Yeah, it does and merely saying it does not further the discussion one bit.

I've learned you can't lump SDA into one category.

I completely agree! And implied that very same truth when I said the SDA did not start out premillennially apocalyptic. The Millerites were, but as an institution the SDA are not all dispies. That does not change the fact SDA preachers like Michael Oxentenko mae it to the radio airwaves and those of other eschatological povs do not. You are invited to provide evidence to the contrary but in the absence of such evidence I expect you to bow to the facts and not post non sequiturs, or appeals to personal anecdotal experience like.....

I've met some who claim Jesus isn't God and met some who understand Jesus is God. In fact I know of one personally who doesn't believe in the theta of the pre-rapture or dispensations.

Good for you.

I don't disagree[,] but Satan believes he can.

Oh do please provide me with the scripture explicitly stating Satan does not understand the difference between infinite and finite or almighty and not-mighty. Please provide for me the verse stating Satan does not know he is a created creature. Please provide for me the verse that states Satan is oblivious to the truth of Romans 3:23 and 6:23. Please provide me with the verse that specifically and explicitly states Satan believes he can win an actual war against God.

In Satans war Satan tries to "harm" those made in Gods image.

Harming others made in God's image is not the same as defeating God Himself. You just moved the goalposts and created a false equivalence.

And since we're far afield of the topic of soul sleep I will wrap up my half of this conversation to commend you for rejecting the SDA doctrine of soul sleep and move on.

 

[Red Baker]

Man was not given a soul, he became a living soul. Don't miss that.

Hobie, you need stop trusting in Helen G. White and the SDA teaching and trust the word of God alone.

God has granted freely eternal life to his elect, that means they cannot truly die, they have the a new man that cannot die, impossible.

John 11:26​

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Hobie, I believe this, why do you not believe this? Believers truly do not die in the true sense of dying. The wicked do die and will stay dead until the resurrection of the last day, and then they shall come forth to be judged and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second and final death where they shall perish.

 

[CrowCross]

it fails because it rejects the truths Jesus is now king of the earth,

I disagree....so would the homeless women on the NY city train that was set on fire by an iligal alien.

Yes, Jesus conquered the consequence of sin when He died on the cross and gives Christians the Holy Spirit....but, Jesus hasn't come back to earth and stood on the Mt. of Olives and taken back physical earth. As some have put it, reclaimed our birthright that Satan has usurped via proxy.

 

[CrowCross]

Oh do please provide me with the scripture explicitly stating Satan does not understand the difference between infinite and finite or almighty and not-mighty. Please provide for me the verse stating Satan does not know he is a created creature. Please provide for me the verse that states Satan is oblivious to the truth of Romans 3:23 and 6:23. Please provide me with the verse that specifically and explicitly states Satan believes he can win an actual war against God.

Satan tried a coup with 1/3 of the angels...that failed.
Satan tried to destroy the linage from which Jesus would come..he started with Cain.
Satan tried the Gen 6 route.....
Satan tried to kill the 2 year old and younger children...Jesus went to Egypt.

Satan thinks he can win. Now he's trying to harm those made in Gods image....some say change the human DNA to the point they are no longer human, made in Satans image...and no longer can receive salvation.

 

[Red Baker]

the homeless women on the NY city train that was set on fire by an illegal alien.

They should take that person to Times Square and set him on fire before the whole world to put fear into others hearts, to let them know if you come here and commit a crime, you shall paid dearly for it.

BTW,

the truths Jesus is now king of the earth,

Is true, and he is coming back to take total possession of it. Much like David was king, yet he had not yet begin to reign visibly from Jerusalem over all as he did later on in his life.

According to the Bible, King David reigned in Jerusalem for 33 years:

• Reign: David's reign as King of Israel lasted 40 years, from 1010 B.C. to 970 B.C.
  
  
• Jerusalem: He ruled over all of Israel and Judah in Jerusalem for 33 years.
  
  
• Hebron: Before that, he ruled over Judah in Hebron for seven years and six months.