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Soul Sleep yes or no?

Same could be said with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
Well..... that's a matter of interpretation because those guys were still in the grave and parables are not necessarily real or fact based. I wouldn't base my position on parables treated literally. Elijah and Moses showing up to chat with JC, however, was real and undisputedly so. At any rate, you're right: no soul sleep.
 
Well..... that's a matter of interpretation because those guys were still in the grave and parables are not necessarily real or fact based. I wouldn't base my position on parables treated literally. Elijah and Moses showing up to chat with JC, however, was real and undisputedly so. At any rate, you're right: no soul sleep.
I am of the belief the parables are based upon "real life" experiences or experiences that could be true.
 
I am of the belief the parables are based upon "real life" experiences or experiences that could be true.
Yes (it's doubtful they were entirely invented in any way that could be called falsehood and especially not a lie) but emphasized and embellished for a given purpose other than the simple distribution of historical or geographical fact. I doubt, for example, there is a literal chasm dividing the living and the dead and I doubt anyone on the violent side of eternal judgment has the time to ask for a drop of water 😬.
 
Yes (it's doubtful they were entirely invented in any way that could be called falsehood and especially not a lie) but emphasized and embellished for a given purpose other than the simple distribution of historical or geographical fact. I doubt, for example, there is a literal chasm dividing the living and the dead and I doubt anyone on the violent side of eternal judgment has the time to ask for a drop of water 😬.
Perhaps....but I doubt the "geographical" location is strictly 3 dimensions like we currently exist in.
 
Perhaps....but I doubt the "geographical" location is strictly 3 dimensions like we currently exist in.
I am sure that is also true but I may not have been clear. The word "God" has meaning, and it is scripture that gives us that meaning. The God of the Bible is almighty, sovereignly so, and always and everywhere omni-attributed. When Jesus said the chasm was not traversable, he was not remotely implying God (or he himself) could not traverse that divide. To suggest such a thing would necessarily mean there is a place in creation where the almighty sovereign Creator is not God. I once had a rabbi ask me, "What happens if God shows up in hell? Does it then cease to be hell?" His belief that everywhere in God's presence is bliss. Therefore hell (or at least his understanding of the Christian version) cannot be real. It's hard to tell an educated, experienced, well-respected man he's a fool. Or, at least it is for some ;). His belief ranks as one of the most stupid things any human has ever uttered and a blunt indication of his own lack of thought and ignorance.


Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.

1 Samuel 6:20
And the men of Beth-shemesh said, “Who is able to stand before the LORD, this holy God?


I do NOT wish to derail this op but this failure to fully grasp the inherent almighty sovereign divine ontology is one of the reasons Dispensational Premillennialism fails. The problem with the Adventist view of life after death is that they use scripture selectively (as is evident in the op). SDAism wasn't originally dispensationalist but most of them are dispensationally premillennial now. Michael Oxentenko would be a textbook/case study example. Rarely can he preach a sermon without interjecting his imminently premillennial apocalyptic views. God's got a warehouse where He stores dead people and he's waiting around for human history to reach the point where He can move on with His plan and empty the graveyard that's not actually a graveyard. It is illogical nonsense built from eisegetically selective use of scripture. Hidden unstated within that premise is that God is not sovereign; He's made Himself dependent on human history; a prisoner, not the sovereign, of time.


Which is why I so often post about the word, "war." That word is a literary device. ALWAYS. The moment we grasp the almightiness of God that becomes self-evident. A finite creature cannot wage any real war against an infinite almighty, sovereign Creator. It is logically impossible. It's like a child trying to blow chewed up wads of paper into a nuclear explosion. The explosion does not even know the child, the paper, the straw, or the breath exist because they are instantly and violently eradicated standing before the blast.

The same sort of nonsense occurs anytime God is said to be waiting on anything in creation. God is not waiting to empty the warehouse of corpses. I happen to subscribe to a modified annihilation position (akin to J. I. Packer or John Stott, not the Millerites, Adventists or JWs) but the SDAs screw it all up by failing to fully grasp the condition of eternity. God does not live in time. He created it. What we await has, for Him, all already happened..... and that did not include temporarily storing billions of dead bodies.
 
I am sure that is also true but I may not have been clear. The word "God" has meaning, and it is scripture that gives us that meaning. The God of the Bible is almighty, sovereignly so, and always and everywhere omni-attributed. When Jesus said the chasm was not traversable, he was not remotely implying God (or he himself) could not traverse that divide. To suggest such a thing would necessarily mean there is a place in creation where the almighty sovereign Creator is not God. I once had a rabbi ask me, "What happens if God shows up in hell? Does it then cease to be hell?" His belief that everywhere in God's presence is bliss. Therefore hell (or at least his understanding of the Christian version) cannot be real. It's hard to tell an educated, experienced, well-respected man he's a fool. Or, at least it is for some ;). His belief ranks as one of the most stupid things any human has ever uttered and a blunt indication of his own lack of thought and ignorance.
God being omnipresent means to me God is in Hell...though the benevolence of God is not expressed.
Exodus 33:20
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.

1 Samuel 6:20
And the men of Beth-shemesh said, “Who is able to stand before the LORD, this holy God?


I do NOT wish to derail this op but this failure to fully grasp the inherent almighty sovereign divine ontology is one of the reasons Dispensational Premillennialism fails.
Dispensational premillennialism doesn't fail.
The problem with the Adventist view of life after death is that they use scripture selectively (as is evident in the op). SDAism wasn't originally dispensationalist but most of them are dispensationally premillennial now. Michael Oxentenko would be a textbook/case study example. Rarely can he preach a sermon without interjecting his imminently premillennial apocalyptic views. God's got a warehouse where He stores dead people and he's waiting around for human history to reach the point where He can move on with His plan and empty the graveyard that's not actually a graveyard. It is illogical nonsense built from eisegetically selective use of scripture. Hidden unstated within that premise is that God is not sovereign; He's made Himself dependent on human history; a prisoner, not the sovereign, of time.
I've learned you can't lump SDA into one category. I've met some who claim Jesus isn't God and met some who understand Jesus is God.
In fact I know of one personally who doesn't believe in the theta of the pre-rapture or dispensations.
Which is why I so often post about the word, "war." That word is a literary device. ALWAYS. The moment we grasp the almightiness of God that becomes self-evident. A finite creature cannot wage any real war against an infinite almighty, sovereign Creator. It is logically impossible.
I don't disagree..but Satan believes he can. In Satans war Satan tries to "harm" those made in Gods image.
It's like a child trying to blow chewed up wads of paper into a nuclear explosion. The explosion does not even know the child, the paper, the straw, or the breath exist because they are instantly and violently eradicated standing before the blast.

The same sort of nonsense occurs anytime God is said to be waiting on anything in creation. God is not waiting to empty the warehouse of corpses. I happen to subscribe to a modified annihilation position (akin to J. I. Packer or John Stott, not the Millerites, Adventists or JWs) but the SDAs screw it all up by failing to fully grasp the condition of eternity. God does not live in time. He created it. What we await has, for Him, all already happened..... and that did not include temporarily storing billions of dead bodies.
 
God being omnipresent means to me God is in Hell...though the benevolence of God is not expressed.
Non sequitur. I'm glad you believe hell is not outside of God's presence (I don't think you meant God is literally in hell like all those he tosses there in vengeance), but that has nothing to do with my point.
Dispensational premillennialism doesn't fail.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
No, it doesn't.

Yes, Dispensational Premillennialims does fail. It fails in many ways but relevant to the point I was making, it fails because it rejects the truths Jesus is now king of the earth, his kingdom has been established on earth, there is a single unified kingdom encompassing all of creation, and God can be God but not king.

Jesus' kingdom won't be established until he sets foot on earth.
There are two kingdoms (one in heaven and another on earth, one for Jews and another for Christians)
The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom on earth are different
Satan is the ruler of the air, not Jesus.
Jesus is God, but not king on earth.

These and many other God-is-not-everywhere beliefs contained within Dispensationalism can be found in many of the threads here in this board. Some Dispensational Premillennialists try to justify themselves by say, "Well, that's not a specific belief I believe," but then the go one to propagate positions that inherently and necessarily mean the exact same thing: there are places where God is not yet God and Jesus is not yet king. When someone says, "Nunh uhn," they're not helping their case.
Dispensational Premillennialism doesn't fail.
Yeah, it does and merely saying it does not further the discussion one bit.
I've learned you can't lump SDA into one category.
I completely agree! And implied that very same truth when I said the SDA did not start out premillennially apocalyptic. The Millerites were, but as an institution the SDA are not all dispies. That does not change the fact SDA preachers like Michael Oxentenko mae it to the radio airwaves and those of other eschatological povs do not. You are invited to provide evidence to the contrary but in the absence of such evidence I expect you to bow to the facts and not post non sequiturs, or appeals to personal anecdotal experience like.....
I've met some who claim Jesus isn't God and met some who understand Jesus is God. In fact I know of one personally who doesn't believe in the theta of the pre-rapture or dispensations.
Good for you.
I don't disagree[,] but Satan believes he can.
Oh do please provide me with the scripture explicitly stating Satan does not understand the difference between infinite and finite or almighty and not-mighty. Please provide for me the verse stating Satan does not know he is a created creature. Please provide for me the verse that states Satan is oblivious to the truth of Romans 3:23 and 6:23. Please provide me with the verse that specifically and explicitly states Satan believes he can win an actual war against God.
In Satans war Satan tries to "harm" those made in Gods image.
Harming others made in God's image is not the same as defeating God Himself. You just moved the goalposts and created a false equivalence.

And since we're far afield of the topic of soul sleep I will wrap up my half of this conversation to commend you for rejecting the SDA doctrine of soul sleep and move on.
 
Man was not given a soul, he became a living soul. Don't miss that.
Hobie, you need stop trusting in Helen G. White and the SDA teaching and trust the word of God alone.

God has granted freely eternal life to his elect, that means they cannot truly die, they have the a new man that cannot die, impossible.

John 11:26​

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Hobie, I believe this, why do you not believe this? Believers truly do not die in the true sense of dying. The wicked do die and will stay dead until the resurrection of the last day, and then they shall come forth to be judged and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second and final death where they shall perish.
 
it fails because it rejects the truths Jesus is now king of the earth,
I disagree....so would the homeless women on the NY city train that was set on fire by an iligal alien.

Yes, Jesus conquered the consequence of sin when He died on the cross and gives Christians the Holy Spirit....but, Jesus hasn't come back to earth and stood on the Mt. of Olives and taken back physical earth. As some have put it, reclaimed our birthright that Satan has usurped via proxy.
 
Oh do please provide me with the scripture explicitly stating Satan does not understand the difference between infinite and finite or almighty and not-mighty. Please provide for me the verse stating Satan does not know he is a created creature. Please provide for me the verse that states Satan is oblivious to the truth of Romans 3:23 and 6:23. Please provide me with the verse that specifically and explicitly states Satan believes he can win an actual war against God.
Satan tried a coup with 1/3 of the angels...that failed.
Satan tried to destroy the linage from which Jesus would come..he started with Cain.
Satan tried the Gen 6 route.....
Satan tried to kill the 2 year old and younger children...Jesus went to Egypt.

Satan thinks he can win. Now he's trying to harm those made in Gods image....some say change the human DNA to the point they are no longer human, made in Satans image...and no longer can receive salvation.
 
the homeless women on the NY city train that was set on fire by an illegal alien.
They should take that person to Times Square and set him on fire before the whole world to put fear into others hearts, to let them know if you come here and commit a crime, you shall paid dearly for it.

BTW,
the truths Jesus is now king of the earth,
Is true, and he is coming back to take total possession of it. Much like David was king, yet he had not yet begin to reign visibly from Jerusalem over all as he did later on in his life.

According to the Bible, King David reigned in Jerusalem for 33 years:

  • Reign: David's reign as King of Israel lasted 40 years, from 1010 B.C. to 970 B.C.

  • Jerusalem: He ruled over all of Israel and Judah in Jerusalem for 33 years.

  • Hebron: Before that, he ruled over Judah in Hebron for seven years and six months.
 
Satan tried a coup with 1/3 of the angels...that failed.
That is preterism
Satan tried to destroy the linage from which Jesus would come..he started with Cain.
That is preterism.
Satan tried the Gen 6 route.....
That is preterism.
Satan tried to kill the 2 year old and younger children...Jesus went to Egypt.
That is preterism.
Satan thinks he can win.
Argumentum ad nauseam.
...and no longer can receive salvation.
Self-contradictory nonsense (if he knows he cannot receive salvation then he also knows he has already lost and cannot win) Why did Jesus come to earth? One of the most prominent reasons is to destroy the works of the devil. That is why he came, not why he is coming.

1 John 3:7-8
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.


Post #30 is, therefore, another fine example of the things I wrote of in my six critical ops. Post 30 is largely preterist simply because it explicitly states some of the things described in Revelation (or other prophecies) have already occurred. Dispensational Premillennialism decries any reading of scripture that would lead to such an understanding and a preterist position. It's hugely inconsistent. The irony is Post 30 was written to dispute my statements about a lack of divine sovereignty in creation but every line of it asserts divine sovereignty, and does so in a preterist way, not a Dispensational way. :cautious:
 
Hobie, you need stop trusting in Helen G. White and the SDA teaching and trust the word of God alone.

God has granted freely eternal life to his elect, that means they cannot truly die, they have the a new man that cannot die, impossible.

John 11:26​

“And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

Hobie, I believe this, why do you not believe this? Believers truly do not die in the true sense of dying. The wicked do die and will stay dead until the resurrection of the last day, and then they shall come forth to be judged and then cast into the lake of fire which is the second and final death where they shall perish.
Yes, but the elect are not perfect, look at Peter to say nothing of Paul. If you do not repent of sin, there is a penalty that needs to be paid which leads to perdition where you perish.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
 
1 Corinthians 11:29 - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death or soul sleep. (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4)
 
The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death or soul sleep. (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4)

I haven't yet looked into it very deeply (because I have other things on my plate at the moment) but it occurred to me while reading scriptures that believers are said to "sleep" (because they will be resurrected to eternal life) while unbelievers are said to "perish" (because they will be resurrected to eternal punishment).
 
This is interesting...


Soul-sleep is the name given to one among the many conceptions entertained by the human mind with respect to the state of the soul after the death of the body. It assumes that the soul sleeps so long as the body lies in the grave, and that it will arise together with the body at the Resurrection. The term psychopannychism (q. v.) has been applied to this doctrine because it teaches a continuous night for the soul “until the day dawn and the day-star arise” (2 Pet. 1:19), or until the eternal day shall begin in which there is no more alternation of light and darkness (Rev. 21:25; Rev. 22:5). The doctrine of psychopannychism originated in the East among the Arabian and Armenian seets, and from thence spread into the West of Europe. Traces of it are found with several of the Church fathers. It was condemned by the Councils of Ferrara (1438) and of Florence (1439), earlier by that of Lyons (1274), and later, in the 16th century, by the Council of Trent (sess. vi, 25). Pope John XXII (died 1304), however, held the doctrine of the soul’s sleep himself, and openly promulgated the view that the souls of the pious dead do not see the face of God until after the body has been raised. Later, after the rise of Protestantism, certain of the Socinians and also of the Arminians showed themselves inclined to hold an indefinite, not thoroughly apprehended, psychopannychism; and the Anabaptists (q. v.) allowed the doctrine to attain to its complete development among their adherents. Calvin repeatedly rejected it, first in his treatise De Psychopannychia (1534), and afterwards in his Tractatus var. ii, 449 sq. etc. Luther, on the other hand, was inclined to accept the doctrine of the soul’s sleep as correct. A related error is that of the soul’s death, which was taught as early as A.D. 248 by the Arabian Thetopsychites (q. v.). Peter Pomponatius (died 1525) became especially prominent among the advocates of this doctrine, and his activity led pope Leo X to condemn this and other similar errors disseminated since the time of Averroes.

The errors in question are based in part upon certain expressions in the Scriptures (see Job 14:11, 12; Psa. 6:5; Psa. 88:11; Psa. 115:17, 18; Isa. 38:18; 1 Thess. 4:13–15; 5:10). The exposition of such passages by which soul-sleep is proved certainly rests on a misconception, since the New-Test. language does not refer to the soul’s sleep nor to the soul’s death, but simply to the soul’s rest (see Rev. 14:13, where the dead are described as blessed). The Old-Test. language usually referred to in behalf of this theory merely regards the life of this earth as a period of gracious opportunity and privilege which comes to end at death (see Heb. 9:27; John 9:4). It must be conceded that the Old-Test. revelation was incomplete; it does not disclose everything with reference to eschatological questions, as in other departments of inquiry, and much is left for the New-Test. revelation to perfect. But the earlier revelation contains no error that might contradict New-Test. truth.

The principal basis for the soul-sleep view is found, however, not in the Scriptures, but in the assumption that death causes a complete disintegration of the constituent parts of the human being. This point has been met by regarding the living soul (Gen. 2:7) as a concrete real, and not simply abstract being; but more satisfactorily by the scriptural statement of the blessedness of the soul after death, from henceforth (Rev. 14:13)—in other words, by the intermediate state, which is to continue until the final reintegration of the entire man and of the race at the day of the general resurrection. This latter doctrine is expressly taught by Calvin, Institutes. iii, 25. (See also Ursinus, Mittelzustand der Seelen; Delitzsch, Bibl. Psychol. [Leips. 1859], p. 389–394.)

The idea of soul-sleep has, nevertheless, a measure of truth belonging to it, inasmuch as death may really be likened to sleep as it stands related to a future resurrection. It actually does lead pious souls to a sabbatism of rest, i. e. to the katapausis (Heb. 4:9–11) and the anapausis (Rev. 14:13). Nor is it accidental that the God-man rested in the grave on the Sabbath, and arose on the first day of the week. Finally, the soul-sleep theory claims in its behalf the idea that the night of death is to the sleepers but as a moment, however long it may seem to us who have not entered on its experience. The views entertained by the adherents of the theory are not constant, however, and they are found sometimes to postulate a distinction between soul and spirit (Eccles. 12:7), and at other times to ignore it.

Bordering on the errors of soul-sleep and soul-death is the monstrous doctrine of a soul-migration, or metempsychosis (q. v.), accompanied by no recollections of any former state, inasmuch as it postulates a previous sleep, or even death (see Lange [J. P.], Positive Dogmatik, p. 1258, etc.). This conception transcends the limits of Christian thought. Sleep and night, death and Sheol. are rest compared with such a migratory state. The theory, associated with that of pre-existence, occurs chiefly, however, in Gnosticism and the Cabala.

In addition to works already mentioned, see Bäcker, Mittheilungen aus Löscher’s Samml. aus d. 17ten u. 18ten Jahrhundert üb. d. Zustand d. Seelen nach d. Tode (1835, 1836), I, ii; Frantz, Gebet für d. Todten im Zusammenhang mit Cultus u. Lehre (Nordh. 1857); Hahn, Lehre d. christl. Glaubens (1858), p. 20, 425 sq.; Göschel, Lehre v. d. letzten Dingen (Berlin, 1850); Id. Der Mensch, nach Leib, Seele, u. Geist (Leips. 1856).—Herzog, Real-Encykl. s. v. See INTERMEDIATE STATE; METEMPSYCHOSIS.


q. v. quod vide = which see.
q. v. quod vide = which see.
sq. sequent. = following.
q. v. quod vide = which see.
q. v. quod vide = which see.
sq. sequent. = following.
Id. idem = the same.
s. v. sub verbo = under the word.

John M’Clintock and James Strong, “Soul-Sleep,” in Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1880), 892–893.
 
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