Revelation 17:8

[Carbon]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

 

[Marty]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

A demonic being influencing Rome and it’s leaders mainly Nero if the first century

 

[Carbon]

A demonic being influencing Rome and it’s leaders mainly Nero if the first century

Scripture?

 

[Marty]

A few reasons are

Nero Cesar comes out to 666 (rev 13)

Rome almost collapsed before it was revived just before 70AD (the fatal wound that healed rev 17)

Daniel chapter 10 shows us that demonic beings are kings and princes over nations and their leaders

A single person can’t be “once was now is not and yet will come out of the abyss” (rev 17)

People aren’t cast into hell alive all people will be judged (rev 19)

A single person can’t be 7 hills, 8 kings and 7 heads (rev 17)

Nero was the 6th king and Galba was the 7th who reigned for a short time (rev 17)

Rome destroyed Jerusalem for Gods purpose, I believe Jerusalem to be Babylon the great (rev 17)

Nero had a 3 1/2 year persecution against the church (rev 13)

Nero demanded to be worshipped as god (rev 13)

The false prophet who I believe to be apostate Israel convinced the unbelieving Jews claim Cesar as their king (rev 13)

 

[Josheb]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

"Was" the beast.

I am inclined to believe he was one of the Jewish Zealots who captured Jerusalem and tortured its people under the delusional belief his views and practices would purify Judaism and bring about the promised holiness and victory over Jerusalem's oppressors. John of Gischala, Eleazar ben Simon, Eleazar ben Hanania, or Simon Bar Giora. The seven mountains are the ones that surround Jerusalem, not Rome (both cities are cities of seven hills). These men's "reign" last only a brief time (an "hour") and they were fighting against what they believed was the adulteration of Judaism (by both Rome and Jesus (ben Hanania was the one who had James stoned). Nero of Rome is a possibility, but Rome's war was not with Jesus when Revelation was written; it was with Judaism and Jerusalem, the harlot that wore scarlet ad purple. It was Jerusalem that warred against the lamb.






I will add a note about Nero. Nero was literally called "the beast," because of his proclivity wearing animal skins, especially those of a lion or a bear when having sex. One ancient record has him literally biting a slave's neck, chewing the slave's flesh and killing the slave while Nero sexually assaulted the slave. This beastly conduct was paradoxically juxtaposed by his refusal (when going about his daily business) to wear the same attire two days in a row. Nero could, therefore, be the beast that Revelation speaks of, but I am inclined to look first to Jerusalem and the Jews when reading Revelation. Rome did a lot of commerce through Jerusalem and Jerusalem definitely whored itself out to Rome, especially politically, but I still find Jerusalem its own worst enemy in whole scripture.
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[DialecticSkeptic]

Scripture?

"The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss and then go to destruction."

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I believe this has not only a historical reference but also a symbolic one. Historically, I believe it refers to the imperial cult of the Roman Empire and its persecution of Christians. In this context, the phrase "was, and is not, but is about to come up" (and later "but is to come") would describe a temporary disappearance and re-emergence of a persecuting force. This may refer to Emperor Nero (r. 54–68 CE), who was infamous for persecuting Christians. His suicide in June of 68 CE led to a chaotic period known as the Year of the Four Emperors (Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian), during which Rome and its provinces were in turmoil (69 CE). Many in that time believed in the Nero Redivivus myth, a rumor that Nero would return to power or be resurrected.

• was -- Nero's reign, during which he persecuted Christians.
• is not -- The death of Nero and ensuing chaotic hiatus.
• is to come -- The expectation of Nero-like persecution resuming after the hiatus.

Domitian (r. 81–96 CE), who was as bad as Nero, was a likely candidate for the beast's resurgence. Despite this, the beast was ultimately doomed ("and then go to destruction"). The collapse of Rome's oppressive power, culminating in the eventual fall of the empire (476 CE), aligns with this prophecy (and reflects the pattern of worldly empires that rise, oppress, and fall under God's judgment).

Notice in verse 16 that the beast turns against the harlot, burning her with fire. This vividly depicts Rome's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 CE. This came after five kings who had fallen (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius), one who is (Nero), and one who is to come (Galba/Otho/Vitellius), who must reign for only a short time (18 months, from 68 to 69 CE). I believe that the eighth king who is one of the seven (verse 11) refers to the Flavian Dynasty itself—Vespasian (one of the Four Emperors) and his sons (Titus and Domitian), particularly when considering that it was Vespasian who restored the empire after Nero's fall, which effectively made his rule an extension of Nero's beastly reign—especially his sons, from Titus who destroyed Jerusalem to Domitian who persecuted Christians. (The military success of Titus in destroying Jerusalem played a crucial role in his later ascension to the position of emperor.)

However, the beast in Revelation 17:8 represents not just Rome but a pattern of oppressive, anti-Christian regimes throughout history. The text warns believers against putting their hope in political powers (which sometimes claim godlike authority), compromising with worldly systems (which demand allegiance contrary to that of Christ), and fearing persecution (since all enemies of God will ultimately be destroyed). While the specific historical referent may be Nero to Domitian, the broader message applies to any governmental or cultural system that sets itself against Christ. The beast is a recurring reality, but its destruction is guaranteed in God's sovereign plan.

 

[Tambora]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

"come up out of the abyss"

Doesn't sound like something a mortal can do.

 

[Mr GLee]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

I would offer the beast as you mentioned is the antichrist system. Which is another kind of authority other than sola scriptura.

Men seducing other men to believe that we need a man seen to teach us and not the promised Holy Spirit of Christ that dwells in the born again believer

False apostles (antichrists plural) Led by the antichrist (singular). Satan bringing false prophecy (I heard it through the fathers grapevine oral tradition of dying mankind

From my experience the doctrine in 1 John 2. many dismiss or ignore the two. Antichrist singular and antichrist multiple working as one .

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist (false head) shall come, even now are there many antichrists; (followers) whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:18 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.;But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Christ uses Peter to define antichrists (many) He was forgiven of his blasphemy of the Son of man Jesus preventing Jesus the Son of man from doing the will of our invisible Lord by rebuking our unseen Holy Father

Mathew 16:23 -24Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.;But he turned, and said unto Peter(one of many antichrsts false teachers) , Get thee behind me, Satan:(antichrist singular) thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Again, many avoid even thinking a true apostles can be used as a false edifying, the flesh and not the life of Spirit of Christ that lived with in Peter.,

The same with the man of sin every man that teaches doctrines of men as a higher authority than sola scriptura. The sword of the Holy Spirit

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Satan the King of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy.

He would keep it a guessing game having no spiritual understanding, not subject to the gospel. No faith (power of God) the eternal things of Christ

 

[Tambora]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

"come up out of the abyss"

Doesn't sound like something a system can do.

 

[Hazelelponi]

“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. Rev 17:8.


Who, or what, is this beast?

Personally, I believe it is the antichrist system.

It is. The beast is the world system that opposes God. Whether it's Islam, or an atheist world system or or or, it's the same thing throughout time.

Comig from the earth or sea describes location. But the beast itself is just the world system (which is governmental as well as religious)

 

[Hazelelponi]

"come up out of the abyss"

Doesn't sound like something a system can do.

Everything has a spiritual head, it's a matter of what spirit, not whether there is one.

 

[Carbon]

"come up out of the abyss"

Doesn't sound like something a system can do.

I appreciate you taking the time to consider this.

I believe it is the antichrist systems throughout this church age since the time of Christ.

 

[Mr GLee]

"come up out of the abyss"

Doesn't sound like something a system can do.

Yes, mark of beast used 9 times in Revelation or system of the beast. Not outward sign used 2 times in Revelation as a lying wonder to wonder, wonder, marvel, wonder after as if it was true prophecy. sending a strong delusion to those who look for a sign to be fulfilled.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11;Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.;And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Yes, false prophecy commandments of dying mankind that make sola scriptura without effect.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men

Jeremiah 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

 

[Paul]

I believe the beast is a fallen angel. The angel of the abyss. The false prophet who acts in behalf of the beast is a man. Satan is given the keys of the abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God and the beast that comes out of the abyss overpowers and kills Gods two witnesses as spoken of in Rev 11.

 

[Mr GLee]

I believe the beast is a fallen angel. The angel of the abyss. The false prophet who acts in behalf of the beast is a man. Satan is given the keys of the abyss in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump of God and the beast that comes out of the abyss overpowers and kills Gods two witnesses as spoken of in Rev 11.

I would offer fallen, false messenger, false apostle, false prophecy, oral traditions of mankind


The mark or system (not outward sign of the beast) 666 the number of unredeemed mankind created on day 6.

Christ sent the apostle Abel with the gospel he preached Cain having no interest in the unseen spiritual things of the Holy Father in order to silence the gospel. . . moved by the father of lies a murder from that very beginning Murdered Abel buried him under the corn. The pagan foundation "out of sight out of mind" God calls fools.

God increased the workload. Cain not in agreement saying a punishment is greater than he could bear. Which only those yoked with Christ could bear making our burden lighter with a future hope beyond what the eyes see the temporal

The mark of Cain anyone that seeks personal vengeance against him and murders Cain receive the same mark non-redeemed

Genesis 4:8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?;And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.;And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;;When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.;And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.;Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Cain the marked man spent the rest of his days a restless wanderer suffering the pang of hell with no help from Christ

 

[Hazelelponi]

"Was" the beast.

I am inclined to believe he was one of the Jewish Zealots who captured Jerusalem and tortured its people under the delusional belief his views and practices would purify Judaism and bring about the promised holiness and victory over Jerusalem's oppressors. John of Gischala, Eleazar ben Simon, Eleazar ben Hanania, or Simon Bar Giora.

Interesting.

The seven mountains are the ones that surround Jerusalem, not Rome (both cities are cities of seven hills).

You missed the earthquake that split Jerusalem into 3. (Revelation 16:19)

I would posit the 3 parts are in full existence now, all at the same time.

These men's "reign" last only a brief time (an "hour") and they were fighting against what they believed was the adulteration of Judaism (by both Rome and Jesus (ben Hanania was the one who had James stoned). Nero of Rome is a possibility, but Rome's war was not with Jesus when Revelation was written; it was with Judaism and Jerusalem, the harlot that wore scarlet ad purple. It was Jerusalem that warred against the lamb.

Consider perhaps what it was to crucify the Son of God, the 3 person of the Trinity. (Just reminding)

Ethnic Jews of that day were given a reprieve in order to save as many as possible while the unregenerate joined first with Rome to persecute the saints of God.

But, the enemy of my enemy being a friend mantra is never a good bet as it has a tendency to bite back and Rome definitely did that to the Jews in the years closely surrounding 70 AD.

The Jews were given 40 years (give or take) to repent and turn to the Messiah after His death and Resurrection.

 

[Josheb]

Interesting.

You missed the earthquake that split Jerusalem into 3. (Revelation 16:19)

No, I did not miss it. I have, in fact, exegeted that text many times for Dispensational Premillennialists. If those verses in Revelation and Zechariah are taken literally then Jerusalem would be destroyed by the earthquake. We, therefore, KNOW those verses are not literal.

I would posit the 3 parts are in full existence now, all at the same time.
Jerusalem, Vatican City, Washington DC - all cities on 7 hills, all tied to both religion and governmental power.

And I would call that something unkind and leave it at that other than to say there is nothing in the Bible specifically about the Vatican City or Washington, DC in the Bible. Such interpretations violate the exegetical concept or original understanding. No original reader of the first century would have ever thought the verses discussed pertained to cities that did not then exist.

The earthquake occurred when Christ died - do you see it... The aftershocks?

Yes, an earthquake did occur when Jesus died. There was another one in Acts 16. Histories of that era also report many others. The earthquake of Rev. 16:9 states the city was divided into three parts. That is exactly what happened during the Jewish War between 66-74 AD. The zealots I mentioned previously could not agree with each other and the city divided into three partisanships...... ALL of which were blasphemous and directly led to the city's downfall and destruction.

Consider perhaps what it was to crucify the Son of God, the 3 person of the Trinity. (Just reminding)

Think that through. The verse states the city was divided in three. If that division was about the Trinity then one third of the city would be divided for the Father, and other for the Son, and the third for the Spirit. The text explicitly states the city fell and it fell due to God's wrath. Why would a city divided over the Father, Son, and Spirit 1) fall to God's wrath and 2) the context of what happens during that earthquake is the worship of the beast, not the worship of the parts of the Trinity.

That interpretation is, therefore, mistaken.

Ethnic Jews of that day were given a reprieve in order to save as many as possible while the unregenerate joined first with Rome to persecute the saints of God.

Probably correct. Paul explicitly stated a remnant had been preserved at that time in the first century.

Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Which means..... if there is a correlation between Romans 11:5 and the earthquake of 16:19 and the beast of Revelation 17:8 then it has all come and gone and is in our past. It was in the original readers' future, but not ours.

But, the enemy of my enemy being a friend mantra is never a good bet as it has a tendency to bite back and Rome definitely did that to the Jews in the years closely surrounding 70 AD.

The Jews were given 40 years (give or take) to repent and turn to the Messiah after His death and Resurrection.

The beast. This op is about the beast, the beast of Rev. 17:8.

 

[Hazelelponi]

And I would call that something unkind and leave it at that other than to say there is nothing in the Bible specifically about the Vatican City or Washington, DC in the Bible. Such interpretations violate the exegetical concept or original understanding. No original reader of the first century would have ever thought the verses discussed pertained to cities that did not then exist.

Okay, you're correct. I will retract the thinking.

Think that through. The verse states the city was divided in three. If that division was about the Trinity then one third of the city would be divided for the Father, and other for the Son, and the third for the Spirit. The text explicitly states the city fell and it fell due to God's wrath. Why would a city divided over the Father, Son, and Spirit 1) fall to God's wrath and 2) the context of what happens during that earthquake is the worship of the beast, not the worship of the parts of the Trinity.

That interpretation is, therefore, mistaken.

Why would it be about the Trinity though?

I thought it was about the apostate church...

But you're correct. I went off topic now, so we can close this. I'll give what you said some thoughts and reconsider my thoughts on this.

 

[Josheb]

Note: Remember that Revelation tells the reader some of what is contained in the record of John's vision(s) had already occurred and was in the past at the time of John's writing Revelation. Some of what he reported was occurring at the time it was written. Some of it was in John's future and is stated to "come after these things."

Revelation 1:19
Therefore, write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

So, there is a very real possibility the beast of Revelation 17:8 had already come and gone by the time John wrote the book. That beast could fall within what John had (already) seen, or that which was (at the time of his writing). Any and all speculation the beast is still in our future must be supported with sound exegesis and that exegesis must address the content of Rev. 1:19.