Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............

[Carbon]

1 Cor 12:3 ... ... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit ...

What is there to discuss?

 

[fastfredy0]

Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............​

What is there to discuss?

What is the cause of a person's faith is left to be discussed.

If a person self-determines one's faith
then the cause of regeneration is the person and then Faith logically precedes Regeneration
this is supported by John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6 and that God loves everyone and is fair to give everyone a chance,
and prevenient grace and possibly some Ouija boards
else
the cause of regeneration is God and then Faith logically follows Regeneration
this is supported by the verse that says "this is the gift of God that you believe" and John 1:12-13 and many more

Possibly the definitions of "Faith" and "Regeneration" is also needed.

 

[Jonathan E. Brickman]

1 Cor 12:3 ... ... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit ...

What is there to discuss?

Moses and others had true faith in God, long before regeneration became available. Therefore, true faith in God can occur in the absence of regeneration.

 

[Carbon]

Moses and others had true faith in God, long before regeneration became available.

Long before regeneration became available? Really? Are you sure about that? When do you believe it "became available?"

Therefore, true faith in God can occur in the absence of regeneration.

Hhmmm.

Welcome to the forum. and thank you for your reply.

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration MUST Precede Faith............​

What is the cause of a person's faith is left to be discussed.

If a person self-determines one's faith

What type of faith would this be? Saving faith or historical faith.

then the cause of regeneration is the person and then Faith logically precedes Regeneration
this is supported by John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6 and that God loves everyone and is fair to give everyone a chance,
and prevenient grace and possibly some Ouija boards

Please explain those verses as far as preceding regeneration. Although I don't believe there is anything new under the sun.

else
the cause of regeneration is God and then Faith logically follows Regeneration
this is supported by the verse that says "this is the gift of God that you believe" and John 1:12-13 and many more

Possibly the definitions of "Faith" and "Regeneration" is also needed.

Hmmm

 

[Arial]

1 Cor 12:3 ... ... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit ...

What is there to discuss?

We can discuss first I guess what it means when it says, "Jesus is Lord"? It can't just mean that you can't say the words without the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

In that passage Jesus and God are shown to be one and the same. One "from are all things and for whom we exist" and another completely different being through whom are all things and through whom we exist, is not possible. It would mean two creators. We (humanity) have only one source of existence.

So when it says that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, it means Jesus is God, come in the flesh. This is revealed to a person by the Holy Spirit, as we see with Peter in Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, SImon Bar Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

The divinity of Jesus is a revealed truth. It is the Holy Spirit that does this revealing and it is necessary for entering the kingdom of God. John 3 tells us in no uncertain terms that one cannot enter unless he is first born again, born from above, not by the will of man but by God. (John 1)

 

[Arial]

Moses and others had true faith in God, long before regeneration became available. Therefore, true faith in God can occur in the absence of regeneration.

A welcome to the forum.

 

[Jonathan E. Brickman]

A welcome to the forum.

Thank you, Arial.

 

[Carbon]

We can discuss first I guess what it means when it says, "Jesus is Lord"? It can't just mean that you can't say the words without the Holy Spirit.

Of course not. Anyone can say those "words."

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

In that passage Jesus and God are shown to be one and the same. One "from are all things and for whom we exist" and another completely different being through whom are all things and through whom we exist, is not possible. It would mean two creators. We (humanity) have only one source of existence.

So when it says that no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, it means Jesus is God, come in the flesh. This is revealed to a person by the Holy Spirit, as we see with Peter in Matt 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, SImon Bar Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

The divinity of Jesus is a revealed truth. It is the Holy Spirit that does this revealing and it is necessary for entering the kingdom of God. John 3 tells us in no uncertain terms that one cannot enter unless he is first born again, born from above, not by the will of man but by God. (John 1)

Here is one example,
One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
The first thief to speak had no problem, saying "are you not the Christ?"

But then the second one to speak shows something totally different.

I believe it shows a sinner who was regenerated before saying such things. He said,
Do you not even fear God? Where did this fear come from?
We are indeed suffering justly? He has seen his guilt.
But this man has done nothing wrong. He has seen Christ's innocence.
“Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” His faith was alive. He wasn't asking Jesus to be his Lord and Saviour. But he knew who Jesus was. Jesus is his Lord and Saviour.

There is quite the difference.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Moses and others had true faith in God, long before regeneration became available. Therefore, true faith in God can occur in the absence of regeneration.

Regeneration precedes faith in the OT.

Moses and others only had true faith in God because it a was a free gift from God, like salvation in the NT.

Ezekiel 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Ezekiel 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Welcome to the forum friend.

 

[Hazelelponi]

1 Cor 12:3 ... ... no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit ...

What is there to discuss?

I don't understand why this seems particularly offensive to people, but for some it's apparently some kind of sticking point.

I don't understand the offense to this.

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration precedes faith in the OT.

Moses and others only had true faith in God because it a was a free gift from God, like salvation in the NT.

Ezekiel 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Ezekiel 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Welcome to the forum friend.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

I don't understand why this seems particularly offensive to people, but for some it's apparently some kind of sticking point.

I don't understand the offense to this.

Well, many do not want to be told they cannot do something on their own.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I don't understand why this seems particularly offensive to people, but for some it's apparently some kind of sticking point.

I don't understand the offense to this.

Because many do not want to make Him Lord?

Jesus is Lord. Cf. Act_2:36; Rom_10:9-10; Eph_1:20-21; Php_2:9-11. The validity of any speaking exercise is determined by the truthfulness of it. If the speaker affirms the lordship of Jesus, it is the truth from the Holy Spirit. What a person believes and says about Jesus Christ is the test of whether he speaks from the Holy Spirit. He always leads people to Christ's lordship (cf. 1Co_2:8-14; Joh_15:26; 1Jn_5:6-8).

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Another passage that should clearly indicate that regeneration precedes faith is 1 John 5:1.

• English: Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him.
  
  ​
• Greek: Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ Χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται

The verb "believes" (πιστεύων, pisteuon) is a present active participle, indicating continuous or ongoing action—"everyone who is believing." This is an ongoing state of faith, not a one-time event.

More crucially, the verb "has been fathered" or born of God (γεγέννηται, gegennetai) is in the (a) perfect (b) passive (c) indicative.

• (a) The perfect tense denotes an action completed in the past with ongoing effects in the present.
  
  ​
• (b) The passive voice indicates that the subject (the believer) receives the action (being born of God).
  
  ​
• (c) The indicative mood states a fact, rather than a possibility or command.

The perfect tense of γεγέννηται (gegennetai) means that the new birth happened prior to the ongoing faith of the believer. The verse does not say that everyone who believes "will be" born of God (faith followed by regeneration). We learn from the structure of this passage that regeneration is the cause and faith is the result.

 

[Carbon]

Another passage that should clearly indicate that regeneration precedes faith is 1 John 5:1.

• English: Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him.
  
  ​
• Greek: Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ Χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται

Indeed! That's a great passage.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Another passage that should clearly indicate that regeneration precedes faith is 1 John 5:1.

• English: Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father loves the child fathered by him.
  
  ​
• Greek: Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ Χριστὸς ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται

The verb "believes" (πιστεύων, pisteuon) is a present active participle, indicating continuous or ongoing action—"everyone who is believing." This is an ongoing state of faith, not a one-time event.

More crucially, the verb "has been fathered" or born of God (γεγέννηται, gegennetai) is in the (a) perfect (b) passive (c) indicative.

• (a) The perfect tense denotes an action completed in the past with ongoing effects in the present.
  
  ​
• (b) The passive voice indicates that the subject (the believer) receives the action (being born of God).
  
  ​
• (c) The indicative mood states a fact, rather than a possibility or command.

The perfect tense of γεγέννηται (gegennetai) means that the new birth happened prior to the ongoing faith of the believer. The verse does not say that everyone who believes "will be" born of God (faith followed by regeneration). We learn from the structure of this passage that regeneration is the cause and faith is the result.

I consider the passage of Acts 16:14 and Luke 24:45 - are those verses that show regeneration prior to faith or no?

I connect understanding to regeneration because that's what I needed was to actually understand, once I did, the second I did, I was saved.

But maybe I connect it too hard this way in those passages.

 

[Carbon]

Acts 16:14

 

[fastfredy0]

Please explain those verses as far as preceding regeneration. Although I don't believe there is anything new under the sun.

I'm just playing devil's advocate. The free willies will use John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6. These are probably the best verses to promote the idea of "faith" preceding "regeneration". This is "what's there to discuss" that you were asking about in post #1.

I have 400ish verses that support the idea that God takes the lead in the area of salvation by faith.

 

[Carbon]

I'm just playing devil's advocate.

I know brother.

The free willies will use John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6. These are probably the best verses to promote the idea of "faith" preceding "regeneration"

I have 400ish verses that support the idea that God takes the lead in the area of salvation by faith.