Read Calvin's Institutes in a year

[Carbon]

I

Prefer Monday, but I will begin reading Saturday

Monday it is.

 

[Carbon]

I'll begin Monday also. But if anyone wants to begin Saturday, please do. It won't make a difference. You may have something to talk about before we get to it on Monday, but we will.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'll start it off in the Institute area, that should probably be where we mainly keep us on track.


I don't think we should have a single area for discussion. It will probably spark many.

That sounds good!

 

[Arial]

I'll begin Monday also. But if anyone wants to begin Saturday, please do. It won't make a difference. You may have something to talk about before we get to it on Monday, but we will.

I may run a little behind. I was looking at the pdf and the reading schedule side by side this morning and can't make heads or tails about where the schedule matches up with the pdf. And my hard copy of the Insitutes reads differently than the schedule. I found the set on Alibris used books for $34.00 so ordered and must wait for their arrival. But I will catch up!

 

[Carbon]

I may run a little behind. I was looking at the pdf and the reading schedule side by side this morning and can't make heads or tails about where the schedule matches up with the pdf. And my hard copy of the Insitutes reads differently than the schedule. I found the set on Alibris used books for $34.00 so ordered and must wait for their arrival. But I will catch up!

Well, I am glad you will be going through the institutes, I really appreciate your knowledge and look forward to some good discussions.

 

[mailmandan]

.48, those who willingly sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth have no sacrifice left for them. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Heb 10:26.

You see, it's not that Christ is continually sacrificed for anyone, but, if he is rejected, there is no other sacrifice. The book of Hebrews teaches that Christ's sacrifice was a one-time event. And if they willfully sin (deny him) they miss him. There is nothing else.

The last sentence: Moreover, it is rejected when the truth of the gospel is expressly denied.

So it's not merely sinning willfully (no one sins against their will) it's finally denying Christ.

Calvin, in the same chapter, further up in the paragraph says: - .....that a return to the communion of Christ is not open to those who nowingly and willingly have rejected him.

In regard to Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, continuous action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate] (AMP)

Those who are born of God do not sin willfully, which is a matter of practice. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The Amplified Bible reads - No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him.

 

[Carbon]

Those who are born of God do not sin willfully, which is a matter of practice.

Everyone sins willingly, no one sins against their will. Now the practice of sin is not something that is natural for the new nature. But when we sin, we sin willfully.

 

[makesends]

Everyone sins willingly, no one sins against their will. Now the practice of sin is not something that is natural for the new nature. But when we sin, we sin willfully.

I agree. While we can see a difference between, for example, what a Wesleyan friend of mine calls a result of the Second Work of Grace, that he "no longer sins" —(this is the guy to whom I said, "let me speak to your wife for a few minutes", and he laughed.)— he says he no longer sins deliberately. I agree there is no real difference, yet, a habit of, let's say, uncontrolled anger, while sin, from a certain POV "just happens", while to 'return to the vomit' is done in full awareness of the selfish, stupid rebellion it is. It feels like a soul-killer, but to suddenly lash out in anger without forethought, is only a soul-killer when one becomes aware of it later, and refuses to repent.

But yes, indeed, they are the same, regardless of how they feel. This is part of the deception with which a person deceives himself, and some religious systems, such as the RCC, play it to their advantage, in separating this sin from that, in degree of condemnation. Sadly, the Protestant denominations do it too, way too often, even though it is not orthodoxy among them.

 

[mailmandan]

Everyone sins willingly, no one sins against their will. Now the practice of sin is not something that is natural for the new nature. But when we sin, we sin willfully.

Those who are born of God exercise their will when they commit an act of sin but they do not willfully sin by rejecting Christ deliberately, as in Hebrews 10:26. For such folks, there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins/there is no further offering to anticipate. In context, we see that such folks draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Those who are born of God exercise their will when they commit an act of sin but they do not willfully sin by rejecting Christ deliberately, as in Hebrews 10:26. For such folks, there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins/there is no further offering to anticipate. In context, we see that such folks draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

Apostates that were never truly regenerated.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Those who are born of God exercise their will when they commit an act of sin but they do not willfully sin by rejecting Christ deliberately, as in Hebrews 10:26. For such folks, there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins/there is no further offering to anticipate. In context, we see that such folks draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

Okay what?

Do not go on sinning willfully is likely the best way to translate that verse.

accidentally in a moment of weakness sinning for a believer is one thing, for example: 'oops I didn't tell my husband how much I spent when I should have fessed up' is a far different prospect to: 'yea I "got saved" but I'm not going to change even one thing about my degeneracy and my degenerate lifestyle.'

The former is saved and needs to repent and ask forgiveness and live for Christ, and the second is unsaved (fruitless, no life from the Spirit, the ",gay christian if you will')

Then there's the 3rd category, denying Christ in the face of death. For them Hebrews outlines they were never saved in the first place, however, they are also unable to be saved on the future (I do believe this is the best reading here).

However, all 3 categories are shown in the book of Hebrews in my understanding and all would agree I think.

Then of course there's the issue underlying all other issues though, whether it's determinitive or not, but I haven't re-read Hebrews in a minute so I should probably read again to brush up...

 

[mailmandan]

Okay what?

Do not go on sinning willfully is likely the best way to translate that verse.

accidentally in a moment of weakness sinning for a believer is one thing, for example: 'oops I didn't tell my husband how much I spent when I should have fessed up' is a far different prospect to: 'yea I "got saved" but I'm not going to change even one thing about my degeneracy and my degenerate lifestyle.'

The former is saved and needs to repent and ask forgiveness and live for Christ, and the second is unsaved (fruitless, no life from the Spirit, the ",gay christian if you will')

Then there's the 3rd category, denying Christ in the face of death. For them Hebrews outlines they were never saved in the first place, however, they are also unable to be saved on the future (I do believe this is the best reading here).

However, all 3 categories are shown in the book of Hebrews in my understanding and all would agree I think.

Then of course there's the issue underlying all other issues though, whether it's determinitive or not, but I haven't re-read Hebrews in a minute so I should probably read again to brush up...

I covered this deeper in post #66. Those who are born of God "practice" (one's lifestyle or bent of life) righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) This does not mean that we will never sin at all/sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1)

 

[Hazelelponi]

I covered this deeper in post #66. Those who are born of God "practice" (one's lifestyle or bent of life) righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) This does not mean that we will never sin at all/sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10; 2:1)

Very true I agree..

 

[makesends]

Those who are born of God exercise their will when they commit an act of sin but they do not willfully sin by rejecting Christ deliberately, as in Hebrews 10:26. For such folks, there no longer remains a sacrifice for their sins/there is no further offering to anticipate. In context, we see that such folks draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

I'm saying there is no such folks. "It's impossible"

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm not sure how that got posted. Definitely accidental.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm saying there is no such folks. "It's impossible"

Are you saying there are no such folks who willfully sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26) and no such folks who draw back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of the soul? (Hebrews 10:39)

 

[Carbon]

Not sure what this has to do with the Institutes? Am I missing something?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Not sure what this has to do with the Institutes? Am I missing something?

I was thinking about starting tomorrow's reading today.

I'm looking forward to learning from Calvin and you all...

 

[mailmandan]

My view of Hebrews 6 is that the description is the WHY of the phrase, "it is impossible". As I described, however, there is more than one possible way to look at Hebrews 6. The other explanation I described —that false believers can experience similar effects as the true— would also work for Hebrews 10:26-31, and better than my view does, because the notion of "it is impossible" is not expressed there, until, at best, verse 39, which is a kind of re-iteration of 6:9.

So, no, I am not saying there are no such folks. I'm saying I like my view, —that such a thing is impossible—, but that this other view, —that false believers can experience similar effects as the true—, is a more 'ready' explanation of the two chapters.

If I take 10:39 out of context, and not in the Greek (where what is translated "sin" means something more like "sinning") it is easy to say that there are folks who receive knowledge of the truth, and then willfully sin. Happens all the time, even with believers.

Oh, I see. I typically hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6. The hypothetical view, the lose your salvation view and the never saved to begin with view/tasted, but salvic faith was never firmly rooted and established view.

 

[makesends]

Not sure what this has to do with the Institutes? Am I missing something?

My bad. Thought I was in a different thread.