Penal Substitution

[Carbon]

Here is a paragraph from Herman Witsius, from his book "Economy of the Covenants between God and Man.

XII 4thly,
Nothing can appear more absurd than to exclude from the satisfactory sufferings of Christ, by way of eminence, that sorrow of his soul, that great trouble and heaviness, that horror and amazement, that exceedingly great sorrow, even unto death, those clots of bloody sweat, those prayers and supplications, with tears and strong cries, the result of all this agony; which the Holy Ghost so circumstantially describes.
This exceeding trouble and agony did not arise only from the sympathy of the soul with the body, nor from the mere horror of impending death; it was something else that afflicted the soul of Christ, namely his bearing the sins, not of one, but of all the elect; he had beheld the awful tribunal of God, before which he was presently to appear, in order to pay what he took not away; he saw the Judge himself, armed with all the terrors of his incomprehensible vengeance, the law brandishing all the thunders of its curses, the devil, and all the powers of darkness, with all the gates of hell just ready to pour in upon his soul; in a word, he saw justice itself, in all its inexorable rigour, to which he was now to make full satisfaction; he saw the face of his dearest Father, without darting a single ray of favor upon him, but rather burning with hot jealousy in all the terrors of his wrath against the sins of mankind, which he had undertaken to atone for.
And whithersoever he turned, not the least glimpse of relief appeared for him, either in heaven or on earth, till with resolution and constancy he had acquitted himself in the combat.
These, These are the things, which, not without reason, struck Christ with terror and amazement, and forced from him his groans, his signs, and his tears.
And if all this was not for the expiation and satisfaction for our sins, what reason can be assigned, why the other sufferings of Christ, within the three hours of darkness, should be accounted so?

 

[Deleted member 6]

For Christ to suffer and then aver that those He suffered for, many will die lost, is a most cruel doctrine.

 

[David1701]

Here is a paragraph from Herman Witsius, from his book "Economy of the Covenants between God and Man.

XII 4thly,
Nothing can appear more absurd than to exclude from the satisfactory sufferings of Christ, by way of eminence, that sorrow of his soul, that great trouble and heaviness, that horror and amazement, that exceedingly great sorrow, even unto death, those clots of bloody sweat, those prayers and supplications, with tears and strong cries, the result of all this agony; which the Holy Ghost so circumstantially describes.
This exceeding trouble and agony did not arise only from the sympathy of the soul with the body, nor from the mere horror of impending death; it was something else that afflicted the soul of Christ, namely his bearing the sins, not of one, but of all the elect; he had beheld the awful tribunal of God, before which he was presently to appear, in order to pay what he took not away; he saw the Judge himself, armed with all the terrors of his incomprehensible vengeance, the law brandishing all the thunders of its curses, the devil, and all the powers of darkness, with all the gates of hell just ready to pour in upon his soul; in a word, he saw justice itself, in all its inexorable rigour, to which he was now to make full satisfaction; he saw the face of his dearest Father, without darting a single ray of favor upon him, but rather burning with hot jealousy in all the terrors of his wrath against the sins of mankind, which he had undertaken to atone for.
And whithersoever he turned, not the least glimpse of relief appeared for him, either in heaven or on earth, till with resolution and constancy he had acquitted himself in the combat.
These, These are the things, which, not without reason, struck Christ with terror and amazement, and forced from him his groans, his signs, and his tears.
And if all this was not for the expiation and satisfaction for our sins, what reason can be assigned, why the other sufferings of Christ, within the three hours of darkness, should be accounted so?

That's a great quote from Witsius!

 

[Carbon]

That's a great quote from Witsius!

Indeed it is.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Here is a paragraph from Herman Witsius, from his book "Economy of the Covenants between God and Man.

XII 4thly,
Nothing can appear more absurd than to exclude from the satisfactory sufferings of Christ, by way of eminence, that sorrow of his soul, that great trouble and heaviness, that horror and amazement, that exceedingly great sorrow, even unto death, those clots of bloody sweat, those prayers and supplications, with tears and strong cries, the result of all this agony; which the Holy Ghost so circumstantially describes.
This exceeding trouble and agony did not arise only from the sympathy of the soul with the body, nor from the mere horror of impending death; it was something else that afflicted the soul of Christ, namely his bearing the sins, not of one, but of all the elect; he had beheld the awful tribunal of God, before which he was presently to appear, in order to pay what he took not away; he saw the Judge himself, armed with all the terrors of his incomprehensible vengeance, the law brandishing all the thunders of its curses, the devil, and all the powers of darkness, with all the gates of hell just ready to pour in upon his soul; in a word, he saw justice itself, in all its inexorable rigour, to which he was now to make full satisfaction; he saw the face of his dearest Father, without darting a single ray of favor upon him, but rather burning with hot jealousy in all the terrors of his wrath against the sins of mankind, which he had undertaken to atone for.
And whithersoever he turned, not the least glimpse of relief appeared for him, either in heaven or on earth, till with resolution and constancy he had acquitted himself in the combat.
These, These are the things, which, not without reason, struck Christ with terror and amazement, and forced from him his groans, his signs, and his tears.
And if all this was not for the expiation and satisfaction for our sins, what reason can be assigned, why the other sufferings of Christ, within the three hours of darkness, should be accounted so?

I really like Witius, he helped settle the quarreling between his brothers on the disagreement on Covenant Theology, with this 2 Volume set. Excellent resource to have for sure.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Hey Brother in the Faith, I am glad to see you all here, where we share, grow, and better protect and defend the Articles of Faith. Penal Substitutionary Atonement is under attack. I do thank Civic for challenging me to define it with Scripture, because it made me grow in the knowledge of God's Promise. So, let's begin, add and share what you know so we all can grow together.

What is PSA? It is, which declares that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father's plan, was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfying the demands of justice so God can justly forgive sins making us at one with God (atonement).

Penal means that sin has breach the commandments of God and a sanction is then rendered upon that act. Our sin has legal ramifications attached to it, a penalty of justice must be fulfilled. But where can we find this in Scripture?

Genesis 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
​

14The LORD God said to the serpent,


“Because you have done this,
cursed are you above all livestock
and above all beasts of the field;
on your belly you shall go,
and dust you shall eat
all the days of your life.
15 I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be contrary to your husband,
but he shall rule over you.”
17 And to Adam he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”
​

Galatians 3:10For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”

Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

So we can see that the Law does comes with curses or penalties if the command for perfect obedience is not fulfilled. Which is the penal or curse from which Christ redeems us from. I will add more later. Feel free to add more.

Know what you believe and why you believe it!​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Israel and Judah Are Unrepentant


1 “Come, let us return to the LORD;
for he has torn us, that he may heal us;
he has struck us down, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will raise us up,
that we may live before him.
3 Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD;
his going out is sure as the dawn;
he will come to us as the showers,
as the spring rains that water the earth.”

4 What shall I do with you, O Ephraim?
What shall I do with you, O Judah?
Your love is like a morning cloud,
like the dew that goes early away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light.
6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant;
there they dealt faithlessly with me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers,
tracked with blood.
9 As robbers lie in wait for a man,
so the priests band together;
they murder on the way to Shechem;
they commit villainy.
10 In the house of Israel I have seen a horrible thing;
Ephraim’s whoredom is there; Israel is defiled.

11 For you also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed.
When I restore the fortunes of my people,​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Isaiah 51

17 Wake yourself, wake yourself,
stand up, O Jerusalem,
you who have drunk from the hand of the LORD
the cup of his wrath,
who have drunk to the dregs
the bowl, the cup of staggering.
18 There is none to guide her
among all the sons she has borne;
there is none to take her by the hand
among all the sons she has brought up.
19 These two things have happened to you—
who will console you?—
devastation and destruction, famine and sword;
who will comfort you?d
20 Your sons have fainted;
they lie at the head of every street
like an antelope in a net;
they are full of the wrath of the LORD,
the rebuke of your God.

21 Therefore hear this, you who are afflicted,
who are drunk, but not with wine:
22 Thus says your Lord, the LORD,
your God who pleads the cause of his people:
“Behold, I have taken from your hand the cup of staggering;
the bowl of my wrath you shall drink no more;
23 and I will put it into the hand of your tormentors,
who have said to you,
‘Bow down, that we may pass over’;
and you have made your back like the ground
and like the street for them to pass over.”​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Psalms 75

1We give thanks to you, O God;
we give thanks, for your name is near.
Wea recount your wondrous deeds.

2“At the set time that I appoint
I will judge with equity.
3When the earth totters, and all its inhabitants,
it is I who keep steady its pillars. Selah
4I say to the boastful, ‘Do not boast,’
and to the wicked, ‘Do not lift up your horn;
5do not lift up your horn on high,
or speak with haughty neck.’”

6For not from the east or from the west
and not from the wilderness comes lifting up,
7but it is God who executes judgment,
putting down one and lifting up another.
8For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup
with foaming wine, well mixed,
and he pours out from it,
and all the wicked of the earth
shall drain it down to the dregs.

9But I will declare it forever;
I will sing praises to the God of Jacob.
10All the horns of the wicked I will cut off,
but the horns of the righteous shall be lifted up.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Matthew 26

38Then He said to them, “My soul is consumed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with Me.” 39 Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.”​

 

[Ladodgers6]

They will insist, that God is not wrathful upon sin, or that he will avenge against it. That God will merely look the other way, and brush it under the rug, and dismiss as boys will be boys. They miss this wrathful position God's takes on sin, because to them he's only Love. Making God a buffet to pick and choose what they god will be like. Like a sock puppet you put on hand and play with, and act out God's part for him. But God is not a piecemeal of emotions. He's all of his attributes all the time. When we sin he is angry, and is displease as believers, but as non-believing sinners, he is wrathful, a righteous Judge on carrying our justice for this outrage and violation of his Holy Commandments.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

 

[Deleted member 5]

Here is a paragraph from Herman Witsius, from his book "Economy of the Covenants between God and Man.

XII 4thly,
Nothing can appear more absurd than to exclude from the satisfactory sufferings of Christ, by way of eminence, that sorrow of his soul, that great trouble and heaviness, that horror and amazement, that exceedingly great sorrow, even unto death, those clots of bloody sweat, those prayers and supplications, with tears and strong cries, the result of all this agony; which the Holy Ghost so circumstantially describes.
This exceeding trouble and agony did not arise only from the sympathy of the soul with the body, nor from the mere horror of impending death; it was something else that afflicted the soul of Christ, namely his bearing the sins, not of one, but of all the elect; he had beheld the awful tribunal of God, before which he was presently to appear, in order to pay what he took not away; he saw the Judge himself, armed with all the terrors of his incomprehensible vengeance, the law brandishing all the thunders of its curses, the devil, and all the powers of darkness, with all the gates of hell just ready to pour in upon his soul; in a word, he saw justice itself, in all its inexorable rigour, to which he was now to make full satisfaction; he saw the face of his dearest Father, without darting a single ray of favor upon him, but rather burning with hot jealousy in all the terrors of his wrath against the sins of mankind, which he had undertaken to atone for.
And whithersoever he turned, not the least glimpse of relief appeared for him, either in heaven or on earth, till with resolution and constancy he had acquitted himself in the combat.
These, These are the things, which, not without reason, struck Christ with terror and amazement, and forced from him his groans, his signs, and his tears.
And if all this was not for the expiation and satisfaction for our sins, what reason can be assigned, why the other sufferings of Christ, within the three hours of darkness, should be accounted so?

Isaiah 53:1-12, 1 Peter 2:24, Acts 2:22-32 most clearly show that Christ suffered as our Substitute, and that He endured the wrath of God while bearing our sin. I believe this is what the cup meant, the cup He would drink of on our behalf; John 18:11; Jeremiah 25:15-17.

 

[atpollard]

Isaiah 53:1-12, 1 Peter 2:24, Acts 2:22-32 most clearly show that Christ suffered as our Substitute, and that He endured the wrath of God while bearing our sin. I believe this is what the cup meant, the cup He would drink of on our behalf; John 18:11; Jeremiah 25:15-17.

That Christ SUFFERED for our sins, I offer no argument.
That Christ BORE our sins, I offer no argument.
However, in Isaiah 53:1-12, where does it speak of God's WRATH?

1 Who has believed our message?​

To whom has the LORD revealed his powerful arm?​

2 My servant grew up in the LORD’s presence like a tender green shoot,​

like a root in dry ground.​

There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,​

nothing to attract us to him.​

3 He was despised and rejected—​

a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.​

We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.​

He was despised, and we did not care.​

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;​

it was our sorrows that weighed him down.​

And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,​

a punishment for his own sins!​

5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,​

crushed for our sins.​

He was beaten so we could be whole.​

He was whipped so we could be healed.​

6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.​

We have left God’s paths to follow our own.​

Yet the LORD laid on him​

the sins of us all.​

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,​

yet he never said a word.​

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.​

And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,​

he did not open his mouth.​

8 Unjustly condemned,​

he was led away.​

No one cared that he died without descendants,​

that his life was cut short in midstream.​

But he was struck down​

for the rebellion of my people.​

9 He had done no wrong​

and had never deceived anyone.​

But he was buried like a criminal;​

he was put in a rich man’s grave.​

10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him​

and cause him grief.​

Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,​

he will have many descendants.​

He will enjoy a long life,​

and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.​

11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,​

he will be satisfied.​

And because of his experience,​

my righteous servant will make it possible​

for many to be counted righteous,​

for he will bear all their sins.​

12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,​

because he exposed himself to death.​

He was counted among the rebels.​

He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.​

How do we get from Christus Victor to God's Wrath on His Son?
How is that not a violation of God's Law/Justice:

Ezekiel 18:1-4, 19-23 [NLT]

1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 "Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: 'The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children's mouths pucker at the taste'? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. ...​

​

19 "'What?' you ask. 'Doesn't the child pay for the parent's sins?' No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done. 23 "Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live.​

​

[LOTS more good stuff in Ezekiel 18.]​

​

​

 

[Deleted member 5]

That Christ SUFFERED for our sins, I offer no argument.
That Christ BORE our sins, I offer no argument.
However, in Isaiah 53:1-12, where does it speak of God's WRATH?

1 Who has believed our message?​

To whom has the LORD revealed his powerful arm?​

2 My servant grew up in the LORD’s presence like a tender green shoot,​

like a root in dry ground.​

There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,​

nothing to attract us to him.​

3 He was despised and rejected—​

a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.​

We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.​

He was despised, and we did not care.​

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;​

it was our sorrows that weighed him down.​

And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,​

a punishment for his own sins!​

5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,​

crushed for our sins.​

He was beaten so we could be whole.​

He was whipped so we could be healed.​

6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.​

We have left God’s paths to follow our own.​

Yet the LORD laid on him​

the sins of us all.​

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,​

yet he never said a word.​

He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.​

And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,​

he did not open his mouth.​

8 Unjustly condemned,​

he was led away.​

No one cared that he died without descendants,​

that his life was cut short in midstream.​

But he was struck down​

for the rebellion of my people.​

9 He had done no wrong​

and had never deceived anyone.​

But he was buried like a criminal;​

he was put in a rich man’s grave.​

10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him​

and cause him grief.​

Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,​

he will have many descendants.​

He will enjoy a long life,​

and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.​

11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,​

he will be satisfied.​

And because of his experience,​

my righteous servant will make it possible​

for many to be counted righteous,​

for he will bear all their sins.​

12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,​

because he exposed himself to death.​

He was counted among the rebels.​

He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.​

How do we get from Christus Victor to God's Wrath on His Son?
How is that not a violation of God's Law/Justice:

Ezekiel 18:1-4, 19-23 [NLT]

1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 "Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: 'The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children's mouths pucker at the taste'? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. ...​

​

19 "'What?' you ask. 'Doesn't the child pay for the parent's sins?' No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done. 23 "Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live.​

​

[LOTS more good stuff in Ezekiel 18.]​

​

​

No, Christ didn't pay for His parents (Heavenly Father's) sins because there were none, ever. For that very reason I'd say the Scriptures are not proving your case, they are non-sequitur, though I appreciate you putting them forward.

I will get to this later hopefully in more detail.

So for now I ask, the cup, what did it represent, the cup the Father gave Him to drink (John 18:11?) And with that in mind, what did the cup represent in OT Scripture?

Then there is the issue of what God's wrath looks like, and what it entails in Scripture, and it is on this very point I believe many people make too many mistaken assumptions about what it means.

 

[atpollard]

No, Christ didn't pay for His parents (Heavenly Father's) sins because there were none, ever. For that very reason I'd say the Scriptures are not proving your case, they are non-sequitur, though I appreciate you putting them forward.

So it would be OK to kill siblings. God's principle in Ezekiel 18 wasn't GUILTY vs INNOCENT, it was only PARENT vs CHILD?

 

[Deleted member 5]

So it would be OK to kill siblings. God's principle in Ezekiel 18 wasn't GUILTY vs INNOCENT, it was only PARENT vs CHILD?

It states about the child not paying for the parent's sin in the texts you've provided. That is what I referred to brother.

Also, I am not sure where and why you are coming up with it being OK to kill siblings (on my part I suppose).

 

[atpollard]

It states about the child not paying for the parent's sin in the texts you've provided. That is what I referred to brother.

Also, I am not sure where and why you are coming up with it being OK to kill siblings (on my part I suppose).

There are TWO points made in the underlined part of Ezekiel 18.

1. The soul that sins shall die.
2. The child shall not die for the parent, nor the parent for the child.

I was hoping to call attention to the FIRST POINT. You chose to focus on the SECOND POINT and claimed that the Child-Parent was the ONLY point being made (you stated that it was “non-sequitur”). So I employed “reducto ad absurdum” to point out that if it ONLY applies to Parent-Child with no broader application, then one can kill a sibling for the sin of their brother or sister in the OT under Ezekiel 18 because a sibling isn’t a parent-child relationship either.

The actual point of Ezekiel is that the GUILTY are punished and the INNOCENT are not under God’s Justice (which is exactly what God had called Israel on the carpet for violating.) Penal Substitution, unlike Christus Victor, appears at first glance to violate the Justice of God set forth in Ezekiel by actually PUNISHING the innocent for the guilty.

It is a separate issue from whether or not specific verses actually SAY that God poured His WRATH on Christ. I find references to God’s wrath being something reserved for “the day of wrath” when it is poured out on GUILTY PEOPLE, not on sinful actions. So Jesus receiving the WRATH of God is a break in the biblical paradigm of WRATH. [Thus my quest for supporting verses.]

I have learned to be cautious about what I was “told” absent scripture that actually supports it with an honest reading of verses in context. The Bereans knew what they were doing.

 

[Deleted member 5]

There are TWO points made in the underlined part of Ezekiel 18.

1. The soul that sins shall die.
2. The child shall not die for the parent, nor the parent for the child.

I was hoping to call attention to the FIRST POINT.

Well then I'm not seeing anything pertinent in your focus on the first point that is relative to our discussion. It does nothing in refuting the fact Christ faced the wrath of God.

The other issue is you've yet to address any of the points I've made in my initial point. As to what wrath is &c, the cup &c.

You've not one time addressed these things. Your posts are begging the question to the extreme.

You chose to focus on the SECOND POINT and claimed that the Child-Parent was the ONLY point being made (you stated that it was “non-sequitur”).

No, sorry. I didn't make as if it were the only point being made. That being true, your first point still falls short of your objective.

So I employed “reducto ad absurdum” to point out that if it ONLY applies to Parent-Child with no broader application, then one can kill a sibling for the sin of their brother or sister in the OT under Ezekiel 18 because a sibling isn’t a parent-child relationship either.

Which in reality proves nothing concerning Christ facing wrath.

The actual point of Ezekiel is that the GUILTY are punished and the INNOCENT are not under God’s Justice (which is exactly what God had called Israel on the carpet for violating.)

So Christ wasn't punished for our sins. OK.

Penal Substitution, unlike Christus Victor, appears at first glance to violate the Justice of God set forth in Ezekiel by actually PUNISHING the innocent for the guilty.

OK, but that is what the OT sacrificial system proclaimed, pointing to what Christ would do. It did this over and over. Looks like you've missed the point.

But you're conflating things, Ezekiel doesn't negate this fact.

It is a separate issue from whether or not specific verses actually SAY that God poured His WRATH on Christ.

So now it is "poured" his WRATH on Christ. OK. Sounds quite dramatic, yet you've not addressed what wrath entails. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I find references to God’s wrath being something reserved for “the day of wrath” when it is poured out on GUILTY PEOPLE, not on sinful actions. So Jesus receiving the WRATH of God is a break in the biblical paradigm of WRATH. [Thus my quest for supporting verses.]

Sorry brother, but you're only showing the fact you do not understand God's wrath. It isn't only reserved for "the day of wrath." You really need to settle down a bit and come to study what it means.

I have learned to be cautious about what I was “told” absent scripture that actually supports it with an honest reading of verses in context. The Bereans knew what they were doing.

OK, thank you.

 

[atpollard]

Well then I'm not seeing anything pertinent in your focus on the first point that is relative to our discussion. It does nothing in refuting the fact Christ faced the wrath of God.

Then I’ll just let that pass … it was a secondary point, anyway.

 

[Deleted member 5]

Then I’ll just let that pass … it was a secondary point, anyway.

Very well, thank you brother!