Parables Riddles Proverbs Dreams Visions

[CherubRam]

Parables Proverbs Riddles Dreams Visions.

The bible often is written in a parable without giving any indication that it is parabolic.

Numbers 12:8
With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Psalm 49:4
I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:

Proverbs 1:6
for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Daniel 5:12
He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.”

Ezekiel 20:49
Then I said, “Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, ‘Isn’t he just telling parables?’”

Hosea 12:10
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.”

Matthew 13:3
Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed.

Matthew 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

Psalm 78
2 I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old...

 

[Josheb]

Parables Proverbs Riddles Dreams Visions.

The bible often is written in a parable without giving any indication that it is parabolic.

Great observation! It is also very salient in a time when there is a raging debate pertaining to how scripture should be read that pits literal reading against allegorical reading in a profoundly fallacious false dichotomy. That false dichotomy is especially sad since there is a much easier and much more efficacious method: treat scripture the way the scripture writers treated it! Were they treated what came before them literally then we should do likewise and where they treated what came before them allegorically (or figuratively, symbolically, rhetorically, satirically, hyperbolically, or spiritually) then we should, again, do likewise.

Or was there another point in mind to be discussed?

 

[CherubRam]

Great observation! It is also very salient in a time when there is a raging debate pertaining to how scripture should be read that pits literal reading against allegorical reading in a profoundly fallacious false dichotomy. That false dichotomy is especially sad since there is a much easier and much more efficacious method: treat scripture the way the scripture writers treated it! Were they treated what came before them literally then we should do likewise and where they treated what came before them allegorically (or figuratively, symbolically, rhetorically, satirically, hyperbolically, or spiritually) then we should, again, do likewise.

Or was there another point in mind to be discussed?

I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the bible often speaks in a parabolic form. Often the bible does not mention that it is a parable. Example: The creation days are epochs of time. Serpents do not talk. Knowledge does not grow on trees. However, there was a time when certain snakes walked. Eating the fruit of evil, making it a part of you, is wrong.

The word of God (The Bible) is as sweet as honey in our mouths. Having to preach the word of God again to the people of the world, would make you bitter to your stomach knowing the reasons why.
Ezekiel 3:3
Then he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it.” So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.

Revelation 10:9
So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’”

Revelation 10:10
I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

 

[Josheb]

I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the bible often speaks in a parabolic form. Often the bible does not mention that it is a parable.

I completely agree.

I'm curious why the examples in this last post are all prophetic. Neither prophecy nor eschatology are the only occasion for parabolic form. The gospels are obviously full of it.

I've found there is a lot of content that goes unlabeled in scripture. For example, when David recounts what God said to Daivid to his son, Solomon, David changes God's words! The scriptures simply record him doing so without comment. Another unlabeled occurrence is Solomon's name. God told David to name his son Jedidiah, but David named him Peace (Solomon means peace), probably because God had told David the one who would build God's temple would be a man of peace. Still a third unlabeled occurrence is the fact Solomon was not next in line to inherit the throne. Solomon had at least eight or nine older brothers! With the possible exception of who inherits the throne, these would all have been considered sinful conduct, but the scripture is silent to that effect. Does scripture expect the reader to know the relevant laws and recognize and understand the violations occurring even though they are not labeled?

This isn't directly parable-related. it's just an example of scripture not labeling its own content. Not all parabolic content is labeled, either.

 

[Josheb]

I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the bible often speaks in a parabolic form. Often the bible does not mention that it is a parable. Example: The creation days are epochs of time. Serpents do not talk. Knowledge does not grow on trees. However, there was a time when certain snakes walked. Eating the fruit of evil, making it a part of you, is wrong.

The word of God (The Bible) is as sweet as honey in our mouths. Having to preach the word of God again to the people of the world, would make you bitter to your stomach knowing the reasons why.
Ezekiel 3:3
Then he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it.” So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.

Revelation 10:9
So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.’”

Revelation 10:10
I took the little scroll from the angel’s hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

What's the difference between figurative language and parable?

 

[CherubRam]

What's the difference between figurative language and parable?

Same thing.

John 16:25
“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Galatians 4:24
These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

 

[CherubRam]

I completely agree.

I'm curious why the examples in this last post are all prophetic. Neither prophecy nor eschatology are the only occasion for parabolic form. The gospels are obviously full of it.

I've found there is a lot of content that goes unlabeled in scripture. For example, when David recounts what God said to Daivid to his son, Solomon, David changes God's words! The scriptures simply record him doing so without comment. Another unlabeled occurrence is Solomon's name. God told David to name his son Jedidiah, but David named him Peace (Solomon means peace), probably because God had told David the one who would build God's temple would be a man of peace. Still a third unlabeled occurrence is the fact Solomon was not next in line to inherit the throne. Solomon had at least eight or nine older brothers! With the possible exception of who inherits the throne, these would all have been considered sinful conduct, but the scripture is silent to that effect. Does scripture expect the reader to know the relevant laws and recognize and understand the violations occurring even though they are not labeled?

This isn't directly parable-related. it's just an example of scripture not labeling its own content. Not all parabolic content is labeled, either.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, (of the) Mighty God, (and) Everlasting Father, (Ministering / Prince) (of / in) Peace.

 

[Josheb]

Same thing.

No.

Parables and figures of speech are not identical. Parables often use figures of speech, but not always. Figures of speech occur in many literary forms, not just parables. Figures of speech come in many forms (such as symbols, similes, and metaphors). A parable may or may not be rooted in an actual historical occurrence and its purpose can be diverse, such as to illustrate a spiritual principle in non-literal ways, or to indicate judgment (or both).

John 16:25
“Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

Galatians 4:24
These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.

Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

No one is disputing the use of figurative language in scripture. I completely affirm its existence.

What I am questioning is the conflation of parables with "riddles, dreams, and visions." They all might use figurative language, but the use of figurative language alone does not make a riddle, a dream, or a vision a parable. The definition is a short story that illustrates a truth or lesson to be learned. There are over 20 different types of figures of speech and they can be used in non-parables.

Parables Proverbs Riddles Dreams Visions.

The bible often is written in a parable without giving any indication that it is parabolic.

That is true, but the term "often" should be replaced with "frequently" so as not to imply the bulk of the Bible is parable. In fact, although parables do often exist in the Bible, they make up a very small portion of the entire text.

Yes, it is also true the parabolic content of the Bible frequently (often ) goes unlabeled, 1) in most cases the parabolic nature of the text is self-evident and 2) there are a lot of conditions that go unlabeled.



So what?



What's the purpose of the op?

 

[CherubRam]

No.

Parables and figures of speech are not identical. Parables often use figures of speech, but not always. Figures of speech occur in many literary forms, not just parables. Figures of speech come in many forms (such as symbols, similes, and metaphors). A parable may or may not be rooted in an actual historical occurrence and its purpose can be diverse, such as to illustrate a spiritual principle in non-literal ways, or to indicate judgment (or both).

No one is disputing the use of figurative language in scripture. I completely affirm its existence.

What I am questioning is the conflation of parables with "riddles, dreams, and visions." They all might use figurative language, but the use of figurative language alone does not make a riddle, a dream, or a vision a parable. The definition is a short story that illustrates a truth or lesson to be learned. There are over 20 different types of figures of speech and they can be used in non-parables.

That is true, but the term "often" should be replaced with "frequently" so as not to imply the bulk of the Bible is parable. In fact, although parables do often exist in the Bible, they make up a very small portion of the entire text.

Yes, it is also true the parabolic content of the Bible frequently (often ) goes unlabeled, 1) in most cases the parabolic nature of the text is self-evident and 2) there are a lot of conditions that go unlabeled.



So what?



What's the purpose of the op?

Parables and figures of speech

Parables and figures of speech at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

 

[Josheb]

@CherubRam,

I cannot have a discussion with DuckDuckGo. I can have a conversation with you, and I presume you have the ability to speak for yourself and articulate your views. Sending me a search engine's search results is worthless and borders on disrespect (which I assume is unintended). Di you bother to review the search results? The first link says "Parable is a figure of speech," whereas the second link states, "parable is related to figures of speech," and "a parable is like a metaphor." The title of the third link is, "Parables, Types, and figures of speech," and its article is very similar to what I posted: "in order to understand and interpret the Bible correctly, the student of the Bible must be familiar with the various expressions and figures of speech in the Bible..... A parable teaches a spiritual truth by analogy from a natural situation... The essential element of a parable is the spiritual lesson to be taught." The fourth article states, "A parable is related to figures of speech." The fifth link cites "20 figures of speech," (none of which is parable), which is what I posted (there are actually more than 20 - that site left out FoSes like assonance, allusion, chiasmus, zeugma, and a handful of others). The sixth link states, "John calls these discourses 'paroimia' and uses that Greek term for various figures of speech..." (again confirming what I posted), and the seventh site states, "The figures of likeness consist of Simile, Metaphor, Implication, Parable." The eighth categorizes figures of speech, separating parable into a category separate from "figures of similarity," as well as allegory and fable. It defines a parable as " a short story that has a deeper meaning than the ordinary meaning," and (again) separates parable from allegory (even though a parable can contain allegory and an allegory can contain parable).

So I'm not sure what you intended by posting links to 13 articles that don't all say the same thing (and in some places contradict one another), but I do know it would be best if YOU posted what YOU want to say and discuss this op.


I will repeat my points of reply to this op:

• Parables, riddles, dreams, and visions are in the Bible.
• Parables, riddles, dreams, and visions are separate forms of information.
• These separate forms of information should not be read or exegeted identically or synonymously.
• The Bible does contain parables, and there are a number of them but I would not use the word "often" in comparison to all the other literary devices that are used in the whole of scripture.
• The Bible does contain parables that are both labeled as such and not labeled as such.
• There are many events, figures of speech, literary devices and genres in the Bibe that are not labeled.
• There are usually indicators any parable is parabolic without having to label it, so it is not correct to say "without labeling it giving any indication..."
• There are many types of figures of speech, more than twenty (possibly as many as thirty or forty).
• There are many figures of speech in the Bible, not all of which are parable.
• There are many parables in the Bible that contain many figures of speech.
• The two, figures of speech and parable, are not identical or synonymous.
• A parable is a short story that illustrates a truth or lesson to be learned, usually one beyond the mere literal reading of the words used. In the Bible the lesson learned is often some spiritual truth or pending judgment.

Given that list, I believe I have brought plenty of op-relevant commentary to the discussion of this op. Care to discuss any of it? If so, then would you please begin by further clarifying the earlier statement, "I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the bible often speaks in a parabolic form"?

To what end was attention drawn to that fact?

 

[CherubRam]

@CherubRam,

I cannot have a discussion with DuckDuckGo. I can have a conversation with you, and I presume you have the ability to speak for yourself and articulate your views. Sending me a search engine's search results is worthless and borders on disrespect (which I assume is unintended). Di you bother to review the search results? The first link says "Parable is a figure of speech," whereas the second link states, "parable is related to figures of speech," and "a parable is like a metaphor." The title of the third link is, "Parables, Types, and figures of speech," and its article is very similar to what I posted: "in order to understand and interpret the Bible correctly, the student of the Bible must be familiar with the various expressions and figures of speech in the Bible..... A parable teaches a spiritual truth by analogy from a natural situation... The essential element of a parable is the spiritual lesson to be taught." The fourth article states, "A parable is related to figures of speech." The fifth link cites "20 figures of speech," (none of which is parable), which is what I posted (there are actually more than 20 - that site left out FoSes like assonance, allusion, chiasmus, zeugma, and a handful of others). The sixth link states, "John calls these discourses 'paroimia' and uses that Greek term for various figures of speech..." (again confirming what I posted), and the seventh site states, "The figures of likeness consist of Simile, Metaphor, Implication, Parable." The eighth categorizes figures of speech, separating parable into a category separate from "figures of similarity," as well as allegory and fable. It defines a parable as " a short story that has a deeper meaning than the ordinary meaning," and (again) separates parable from allegory (even though a parable can contain allegory and an allegory can contain parable).

So I'm not sure what you intended by posting links to 13 articles that don't all say the same thing (and in some places contradict one another), but I do know it would be best if YOU posted what YOU want to say and discuss this op.


I will repeat my points of reply to this op:

• Parables, riddles, dreams, and visions are in the Bible.
• Parables, riddles, dreams, and visions are separate forms of information.
• These separate forms of information should not be read or exegeted identically or synonymously.
• The Bible does contain parables, and there are a number of them but I would not use the word "often" in comparison to all the other literary devices that are used in the whole of scripture.
• The Bible does contain parables that are both labeled as such and not labeled as such.
• There are many events, figures of speech, literary devices and genres in the Bibe that are not labeled.
• There are usually indicators any parable is parabolic without having to label it, so it is not correct to say "without labeling it giving any indication..."
• There are many types of figures of speech, more than twenty (possibly as many as thirty or forty).
• There are many figures of speech in the Bible, not all of which are parable.
• There are many parables in the Bible that contain many figures of speech.
• The two, figures of speech and parable, are not identical or synonymous.
• A parable is a short story that illustrates a truth or lesson to be learned, usually one beyond the mere literal reading of the words used. In the Bible the lesson learned is often some spiritual truth or pending judgment.

Given that list, I believe I have brought plenty of op-relevant commentary to the discussion of this op. Care to discuss any of it? If so, then would you please begin by further clarifying the earlier statement, "I wanted to draw attention to the fact that the bible often speaks in a parabolic form"?

To what end was attention drawn to that fact?

The parable is related to figures of speech such as the metaphors and simile. A parable is like a metaphor in that it uses concrete, perceptible phenomena to illustrate abstract ideas. It may be said that a parable is a metaphor that has been extended to form a brief, coherent narrative. A parable also resembles a simile, i.e., a metaphorical ...

 

[Josheb]

The parable is related to figures of speech such as the metaphors and simile.

Yes, that is correct BUT that is not all to which a parable is related.

A parable is like a metaphor in that it uses concrete, perceptible phenomena to illustrate abstract ideas.

Yes, but (again) a parable can be more than metaphor. It can hyperbole, personification, or any number of the various types of figures of speech.

It may be said that a parable is a metaphor that has been extended to form a brief, coherent narrative.

It may indeed.

A parable also resembles a simile, i.e., a metaphorical ...

Which is sort of the point. Metaphors are not similes and similes are not metaphors.



Did you intend this discussion to take up so much time defining "parable" and "figure of speech"? Is there another more specific point you want to make about the Bible or the use of parables in the Bible, or the use of figures of speech in the Bible?

 

[CherubRam]

Yes, that is correct BUT that is not all to which a parable is related.

Yes, but (again) a parable can be more than metaphor. It can hyperbole, personification, or any number of the various types of figures of speech.

It may indeed.

Which is sort of the point. Metaphors are not similes and similes are not metaphors.



Did you intend this discussion to take up so much time defining "parable" and "figure of speech"? Is there another more specific point you want to make about the Bible or the use of parables in the Bible, or the use of figures of speech in the Bible?

I'm done.

 

[Mr GLee]

Did you intend this discussion to take up so much time defining "parable" and "figure of speech"? Is there another more specific point you want to make about the Bible or the use of parables in the Bible, or the use of figures of speech in the Bible?

Yes there main purpose is to teach mankind how to understand the unseen things of God. Hid from natural unconverted mankind .Without parables the signified understanding. . . Christ spoke not .