Matthew 6:14-15?

[fastfredy0]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

 

[Arial]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

It is a puzzling passage, but one thing we know for sure. It is not contradicting other passages on forgiveness in Scripture, and other passages in scripture do not contradict this one.

It is in conjunction with the Lord's Prayer given as Jesus' instruction on how to pray, specifically "And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." So I do not think the forgiveness mentioned here is the same thing as our sins being forgiven in salvation through the redemptive work of Jesus in His resurrection. As such, I would accept premise 2 but with explanation. Obviously it is a person to person forgiveness. If we hold something against someone, for a wrong they have done to us, it is guaranteed that we have also wronged others. If we are not willing to forgive them, then why should we expect God to forgive us for the particular wrongs we commit against others? It is not accusing or removing salvation, but is teaching us that we should be merciful because of the great mercy we have been shown by God.

Do we want God to hold our sins against us which are great? Then why should we hold something against another? It is actually a marvelous tool if we contemplate it, that helps us to forgive others. A kind of "why sweat the small stuff?" lightbulb encounter with the mercy and graciousness and grace of God and a close encounter with ourselves in His presence. I speak from experience! There is nothing quite so humbling and freeing.

To summarize: Particularly when in prayer we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness,or ask for mercy and help, and at the same time have unforgiveness in ourselves, why are we asking Him to forgive us? "First go to your brother and---" "First take the log out of your own eye---"

 

[fastfredy0]

So I do not think the forgiveness mentioned here is the same thing as our sins being forgiven in salvation through the redemptive work of Jesus in His resurrection. As such, I would accept premise 2 but with explanation. Obviously it is a person to person forgiveness. If we hold something against someone, for a wrong they have done to us, it is guaranteed that we have also wronged others. If we are not willing to forgive them, then why should we expect God to forgive us for the particular wrongs we commit against others? It is not accusing or removing salvation, but is teaching us that we should be merciful because of the great mercy we have been shown by God.

Hmmm .... I understand the lessons here: that we should forgive others. But, are you saying God does not forgive our sin (Matt. 6:15) of not forgiving others but "over looks this unforgiven sin" such that we are still saved (go to heaven)? (Where "over looks this unforgiven sin" is a contradiction)
I still don't understand which premise is wrong and why. You said accept Premise 2 with an explanation ... but I don't see how the explanation invalidates premise 2 or how my conclusion doesn't fit.

I don't see how one can expect and father and mother (by way of extreme example) to forgive some guy that raped and murdered their 14 year of daughter .... and even if they are exceptional and are able to forgive the guy, how is this not a work that is needed for God to forgive them which is a prerequisite for entry into heaven?

 

[fastfredy0]

@Arial
... maybe the answer is ... the holy Spirit in you causes you to forgive the person that raped and killed your daughter and thus the act of forgiveness is not yours, but the Spirits and one in that case would not be saved by works. Of course this solution also means that the person who did not forgive the raper/killer was never a Christian in the first place.

I have a neighbor that did me wrong (the police backed up this statement though it was not a big deal) ... I still have not 'fully' forgiven the guy though we did shake hands ... this solution has me going to hell if the premises and conclusion are correct ... I don't like this solution *hesitant giggle*

 

[Arial]

Hmmm .... I understand the lessons here: that we should forgive others. But, are you saying God does not forgive our sin (Matt. 6:15) of not forgiving others but "over looks this unforgiven sin" such that we are still saved (go to heaven)? (Where "over looks this unforgiven sin" is a contradiction)
I still don't understand which premise is wrong and why. You said accept Premise 2 with an explanation ... but I don't see how the explanation invalidates premise 2 or how my conclusion doesn't fit.

I see the explanation as being in putting the statement into its proper context,of what Jesus is teaching, and in fact is teaching the Jews, (that is not to say it is not applicable to us) since we know from clear scripture that we cannot lose our salvation, and that we are forgiven all our sin when through faith in Christ we are justified. We can't be unjustified.

I do agree however, that learning to forgive, and forgiving, are a work of the Holy Spirit in us. I had a direct experience of that once with a person who I knew I had to forgive and had no desire to forgive. My prayer was that I would want to want to forgive. It was an instant sense of an inner washing. We must remember that forgiveness often has to be revisited often as our mind and circumstances stir things up again.

I don't see how one can expect and father and mother (by way of extreme example) to forgive some guy that raped and murdered their 14 year of daughter .... and even if they are exceptional and are able to forgive the guy, how is this not a work that is needed for God to forgive them which is a prerequisite for entry into heaven?

I don't think forgiving means we will never feel anger, or pain, over what was done, that those who caused it are not the source of that anger and pain. There is also that other puzzling scripture that says if your brother wrongs you and IF seventy times seven repents, we are to forgive. Does that mean if there is no repentance by the one who wronged us, we do not need to forgive? What I think forgiveness is in the sense that we go on with our life not thinking the one who wronged us owes us something--not even an apology or recompense. We rest in the knowledge that God will right all wrongs, and not always in this life. But the sufferings of this life are as nothing compared to what awaits us.

The way I see it, even our unforgiveness is forgiven, for that is what Scripture tells us in places that are clear. However what is stated as God not forgiving us in that passage could refer to us reaping the earthly consequences of not forgiving. Forgiving is wisdom for living a good and upright life.

 

[Carbon]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

Hmmm. Both the power to believe and the ability to forgive are from God. I believe the new heart comes with a willingness to forgive sins especially since we have experienced God's forgiveness for ourselves. Jesus words shoud impressess us with the importance of forgiving others, therefore it should be taken seriously.

 

[Carbon]

@Arial
... maybe the answer is ... the holy Spirit in you causes you to forgive the person that raped and killed your daughter and thus the act of forgiveness is not yours, but the Spirits and one in that case would not be saved by works. Of course this solution also means that the person who did not forgive the raper/killer was never a Christian in the first place.

I have a neighbor that did me wrong (the police backed up this statement though it was not a big deal) ... I still have not 'fully' forgiven the guy though we did shake hands ... this solution has me going to hell if the premises and conclusion are correct ... I don't like this solution *hesitant giggle*

Its the innerman that counts. Because the innerman desire the things of God.

Why do we do the things we dont want to do, ..................

God knows those who are His. He does not take us out of this world. We will not loose our salvation, but that does not mean we will not be chastened.

 

[fastfredy0]

I see the explanation as being in putting the statement into its proper context,of what Jesus is teaching, and in fact is teaching the Jews, (that is not to say it is not applicable to us) since we know from clear scripture that we cannot lose our salvation,

Well, I agree that a saved person cannot lose their salvation but you have not addressed the what seems to be a contradiction that a person can be unforgiven for the sin of not forgiving someone and yet go to heaven.
I agree the bible not contradicts itself. To keep it simple I think one has to deal with the premises and show the fault with one of them or why the conclusion does not follow.

I do agree however, that learning to forgive, and forgiving, are a work of the Holy Spirit in us.

So, given
Premise 1: "of all His sheep Jesus will not lose one of them" and
Premise 2: "forgiving, is a work of the Holy Spirit in us"
Premise 3: "a saved person cannot lose their salvation"
Conclusion: If someone dies having not forgiven someone then that person was never saved in the first place.
Does that not follow?
I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm just conveying what I think are logical conclusions given scripture.

.... another brutal example.... I gal who has baby sat your you 6 year old give the kid corporal punishment for taking a cookie without permission. He asks forgiveness and you forgive him verbally. If you really forgave her would you not let her baby sit again .... then there's the forgive 70 x 7 verse ... if you reall forgave her you would let this go on 100s of times....? ....granted, extreme example

I don't think forgiving means we will never feel anger, or pain, over what was done

Ah, this is the loop hole I also thought about ... maybe my/our definition of "forgiveness" is too stringent. I like that thought but it is a subjective explanation which means it might be wrong.
I used a website to look up the Greek definition of FORGIVE in Matt 6:15... maybe this is the explanation.
1) to send away 1a) to bid going away or depart 1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife 1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire 1c) to let go, let alone, let be 1c1) to disregard 1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic) 1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers 1c3) to omit, neglect 1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit 1e) to give up, keep no longer 2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person 3) to leave, go way from one 3a) in order to go to another place 3b) to depart from any one 3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all mutual claims are abandoned 3d) to desert wrongfully 3e) to go away leaving something behind 3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion 3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one 3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining 3i) abandon, leave destitute

Thanks for your input.

Hmmm. Both the power to believe and the ability to forgive are from God. I believe the new heart comes with a willingness to forgive sins especially since we have experienced God's forgiveness for ourselves. Jesus words shoud impressess us with the importance of forgiving others, therefore it should be taken seriously.

Agreed. The conclusion would seem to be that if you have not forgiven someone then you are not saved.

Its the innerman that counts. Because the innerman desire the things of God.

Why do we do the things we dont want to do, ..................

Hmmm ... interesting point. Sounds like Paul in Romans 7:21-25 So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind serve the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness, my sinful capacity—I serve] the law of sin.
I don't know if that's the answer ... but maybe so
Thx for your input.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed. The conclusion would seem to be that if you have not forgiven someone then you are not saved.

I believe since Jesus said it, it is very important. I also believe if we are having a difficult time forgiving someone, why would it be difficult? In this case, because we know it is right and we also desire to because we are born of the Spirit and have a new heart; it is that inner man desiring the things of God. Of course, we know the natural man can forgive also, but it is not because they have been forgiven, it's not the inner man desiring the things of God.

Hmmm ... interesting point. Sounds like Paul in Romans 7:21-25 So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind serve the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness, my sinful capacity—I serve] the law of sin.

Yes. The law of sin remains in us until glory.

So like Paul, we do the things we do not want to do, not forgiving for example. Are we not saved? No, we are and we desire to do what is right. This process of conforming us to the image of Christ (sanctification) can be very difficult and painful, I know it is for me often.

I don't know if that's the answer ... but maybe so
Thx for your input.

Maybe so.

 

[Carbon]

So like Paul, we do the things we do not want to do, not forgiving for example. Are we not saved? No, we are and we desire to do what is right. This process of conforming us to the image of Christ (sanctification) can be very difficult and painful, I know it is for me often.

Consider this. When we do forgive someone, is it because we made a conscious decision to forgive? Though that may be part of it, I don't think so. I can choose to forgive all day long but unless my heart is inclined to forgive, it's not genuine.

The more Christlike I become the more my heart wants to forgive and the more forgiving I am. Listen at Jesus looking down from the cross, "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."
Do we desire to be like that? Yes, I believe we do, but we have the law of sin waging war against the mind.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7.

 

[fastfredy0]

Do we desire to be like that? Yes, I believe we do, but we have the law of sin waging war against the mind.

Agreed.
Maybe I should add "you forgive others" to my list of:
Test For Salvation (Marks Of A Born Again Christian)
1. Believing in Christ (Faith)
2. Repentance - Who Loves God will Obey God.
3. The Believer’s Salvation from the Love of Sin.
4. No Habitual Sinning, Strive to enter through the narrow gate.
5. Material possessions have little value and human issues are not particularly upsetting.
6. Humility.
7. Lose our own life to follow Him...
8. Love of the Brethren.
9. Internal Testimony Of The Spirit Overcoming the World.
10. Spiritual Growth.
11. Peace.
12. Perseverance.
13. Persecution.
14. You forgive others

Gee, my poor wife has to forgive me all the time ... proof that she must be "born again" (giggle)

 

[makesends]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

You didn't ask, but my opinion is that the verse is being taken out of context, in addition to the fact that the use of it seems entirely temporal if not self-deterministic.

Salvation is not hinged on what we do.

We do according to what we are.

Does it say, "forgive", or does the tense in the Greek imply habitual or continual action? —Are we forgiving? The same question goes to many more similar statements: Those that love Christ obey him; if we are not confessing our sins he has not forgiven us; if we are not repentant....

 

[fastfredy0]

You didn't ask, but my opinion

I always value you insights. You and @atpollard are my favorite posters.

the verse is being taken out of context,

maybe

• Mark 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him [drop the issue, let it go], so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions and wrongdoings [against Him and others].
• Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
• Luke 6:23 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
• Matt 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

There seems to several other verses saying the same thing. Are they also "out of context"?

Salvation is not hinged on what we do.

Agreed ... it is based on what God does and if by the leading of the Holy Spirit He does not grant us the ability to forgive, could that not be a sign we are not one of His sheep for from the verses listed above He apparently does not forgive those who do not forgive others and per my premises: one that is not forgiven does not enter heaven.

Does it say, "forgive", or does the tense in the Greek imply habitual or continual action? —Are we forgiving? The same question goes to many more similar statements: Those that love Christ obey him; if we are not confessing our sins he has not forgiven us; if we are not repentant....

hmmm ... maybe ... I'm not sure I understand the statement


... is there a degree of forgiving? For example, I might basically get over a guy slapping my 4 year old but not to the degree that I let that guy babysit my kid ... ... I don't know

... my thesis bothers me

Thx for your input

​

 

[Josheb]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

Do unsaved people forgive?

Let me clarify that question. There are Christians and non-Christians; the regenerate and the unregenerate. Do unregenerate people forgive the way Jesus was speaking of forgiveness in Matthew 6:14-15? Presumably, a regenerate Christian is forgiving with the inspiration, empowerment, and integrity of the Holy Spirit, does so with God-given, faith, obedience and purpose, and not merely with his or her flesh. So.... given those stipulations.....

Do unsaved people forgive?





And, for the record, I reject Premise3 wholesale.

 

[Arial]

Well, I agree that a saved person cannot lose their salvation but you have not addressed the what seems to be a contradiction that a person can be unforgiven for the sin of not forgiving someone and yet go to heaven.
I agree the bible not contradicts itself. To keep it simple I think one has to deal with the premises and show the fault with one of them or why the conclusion does not follow.

I thought I did.

So, given
Premise 1: "of all His sheep Jesus will not lose one of them" and
Premise 2: "forgiving, is a work of the Holy Spirit in us"
Premise 3: "a saved person cannot lose their salvation"
Conclusion: If someone dies having not forgiven someone then that person was never saved in the first place.
Does that not follow?
I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm just conveying what I think are logical conclusions given scripture.

I don't think that follows. The Scripture being used is Matt 6:14-15 which follows the Lord's Prayer, and in truth, is pulled out of its context, which actually begins in chapter 5. Jesus is teaching His disciples principles in the Law and exposing hypocrisy in those entrusted with the Law. Matt 5:19-20 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then Jesus continues His teaching on righteousness (for that is what He is teaching) dealing with Anger, Retaliation, Love Your Enemies. And it is here I think we find the beginning of the solution to the paradox of 6:14-15.

On anger: 5:21-26 You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgement." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement.. whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, "You fool!" will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift at the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

This all pertains to Jewish Law and how judgements were dispensed. Jesus teaches what true righteousness is as compared to on what the council judgements are based.

On Retaliation: 38-42. On Love Your Enemies 43-48.

These things are teaching what true righteousness is, and it could not be obtained by the Law. The Law condemns. So when we get to the Lord's Prayer and verses 14-15 the fact of not being able to keep perfect righteousness also condemns in the area of forgiveness. Verses 14-15 do not condemn or hinder the Christian for we are not seeking our own righteousness, but have obtained the perfect righteousness of Christ through faith. When Jesus said those words, He had not yet purchased this righteousness for those He spoke to. He was at that point, teaching what the righteousness of the Law is. As to their application to the Christian, the true righteousness that is taught in the Law is the standard, but not Law, of the behavior and attitude for the child of God. To not forgive is to live with an attitude of hatred and taking retribution into our own hands instead of leaving it where it belongs, in God's hands. It will not cause us to lose our salvation, for we ever are counted as righteous in Christ. It will however affect our earthly life. And in this we absolutely depend on the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in us---however long it takes or how many times we must revisit it. But I do not think it all by itself indicates a person is not saved and never was.

 

[Josheb]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

Salvation by faith?
Salvation by works?
Salvation by forgiveness?

​

Let all go to our local shopping mall today and for an hour walk up to as many people as we can and forgive them whatever sins they've committed. Together, we'll save thousands of people in just one hour!

 

[Mr GLee]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others [nurturing your hurt and anger with the result that it interferes with your relationship with God], then your Father will not forgive your trespasses. AMP

Premise 1: If God does not forgive you then you're going to hell (as you have sin that has not been imputed to Christ)
Premise 2: If you do not forgive someone then God will not forgive you (v.15)
Premise 3: You are judged according to your relationship with God at the point of time that you die
Conclusion: You are going to hell if you die and have not forgiven someone

To make matters more complex
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (many verses)
Conclusion: Assuming the above is true is seems that one must do the work of "forgiving other" in order to be saved which contradicts premise 1.

@Arial @Carbon ....I'm interested in your opinion as we tend to have a common theological foundation

With no other context Jesus as it seems is saying we can earn God's forgiveness after we forgive the sins of others that sin against us, and we lose forgiveness when we refuse to forgive others. Like other passages , Jesus emphasized that God is displeased by those who refuse to forgive others despite being forgiven for much greater wrong doings by God.

There is no work we could do that could add to his grace. We are saved by works . . but not of our own . We are saved by Christ' work of faith as a labor of his unseen love that works in us.

We have no power to forgive sin against, God That is a Catholic confession idea. When we do sin against each other we must first confess to God who dwells in us . he brings forgiveness to both. His gifts are two fold. giving glory to the giver of spiritual unseen gifts that work in others mutually .Both the preaching and hearing of God understanding hid from the lost .


The gift of prophesying and the gift of understanding prophecy all togethter as one gift . God faithfully workings in new creatures Christians.

Roman 1: 10-17 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel (the unseen things of God) to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness (power) of God revealed from faith( invisible) to faith ( invisible): as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Christ in us not Christ is us. . dying mankind

 

[fastfredy0]

The Scripture being used is Matt 6:14-15 which follows the Lord's Prayer, and in truth, is pulled out of its context, which actually begins in chapter 5. Jesus is teaching His disciples principles in the Law and exposing hypocrisy in those entrusted with the Law. Matt 5:19-20 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then Jesus continues His teaching on righteousness (for that is what He is teaching) dealing with Anger, Retaliation, Love Your Enemies. And it is here I think we find the beginning of the solution to the paradox of 6:14-15.

On anger: 5:21-26 You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgement." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement.. whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, "You fool!" will be liable to the hell of fire. So if you are offering your gift at the at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift at the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

This all pertains to Jewish Law and how judgements were dispensed. Jesus teaches what true righteousness is as compared to on what the council judgements are based.

Hmmm .... @makesends mentioned context but I didn't see it but you longer explanation does make sense. I not 100% convinced as it's a complex explanation, but I see a possibility. Assuming you're correct we still have similar verses saying God doesn't forgive people who don't forgive:

• Mark 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him [drop the issue, let it go], so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions and wrongdoings [against Him and others].
• Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
• Luke 6:23 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
• Matt 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

When Jesus said those words, He had not yet purchased this righteousness for those He spoke to.

for we are not seeking our own righteousness, but have obtained the perfect righteousness of Christ through faith.

Well, that's true enough

To not forgive is to live with an attitude of hatred and taking retribution into our own hands instead of leaving it where it belongs, in God's hands.

Agreed. It is possible my definition of "forgiven" may be the weakness in my arguments.

Thanks for your thoughts. When I get to the pearly gates for judgment, perhaps you can be 2nd chair with Christ in my defense. *loving giggle* (not that He needs a 2nd chair)

 

[fastfredy0]

With no other context Jesus as it seems is saying we can earn God's forgiveness after we forgive the sins of others that sin against us, and we lose forgiveness when we refuse to forgive others.

That's not my contention. I am not stating we earn salvation in any sense. I was stating the if one does not forgive another (via the power of being "in Christ") then one was never forgiven/saved in the first place. That's my argument. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Also, I do not believe one can lose the forgiveness of God. Again, my argument was one was never saved in the first place if he cannot forgive another. I am not convinced I am wrong. I hope I am wrong. Others have given reasonable explanations on the other side of the argument.

There is no work we could do that could add to his grace. We are saved by works . . but not of our own .

Agreed

We have no power to forgive sin against, God

???

Roman 1: 10-17 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel (the unseen things of God) to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.For therein is the righteousness (power) of God revealed from faith( invisible) to faith ( invisible): as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Too many colors ... giggle

 

[Arial]

Hmmm .... @makesends mentioned context but I didn't see it but you longer explanation does make sense. I not 100% convinced as it's a complex explanation, but I see a possibility. Assuming you're correct we still have similar verses saying God doesn't forgive people who don't forgive:

• Mark 11:25 Whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him [drop the issue, let it go], so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions and wrongdoings [against Him and others].
• Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
• Luke 6:23 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
• Matt 18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

All within the same basic context. Jesus is teaching what true righteousness is, compared to the Jews who thought it was not about righteousness but about being possessors of the Law.

Christ's righteousness imputed through faith in His person and work and full eternal justification before God, did not come until after His death and resurrection. It was in His resurrection that He defeated the power of sin and death over the believer, and removed the curse of the Law.

Agreed. It is possible my definition of "forgiven" may be the weakness in my arguments.

Thanks for your thoughts. When I get to the pearly gates for judgment, perhaps you can be 2nd chair with Christ in my defense. *loving giggle* (not that He needs a 2nd chair)

I think that it is our perception of forgiveness that is the fly in the ointment for all of us. It is a difficult subject and concept given that the only experience of us forgiving and being forgiven is our only tangible frame of reference. We can't put the feelings of pain, betrayal, anger, injustice, and also forgiving as able to exist at the same place and at the same time. We associate forgiveness with feelings and we do the same with love. Whereas, to love our enemies and those who spitefully use us, does not mean we have affection for them. It means we do not withhold good from them when they are in need and we can help. It is seeing one who killed your child while driving drunk dying of thirst and giving them a drink of water. I am just beginning to see some of this, and I may still be wrong, but I think we wrestle with it all our life. Especially when we try to work it out with worst case scenario hypotheticals. I cannot see myself offering a drink of water to a dying man who had raped murdered by daughter. I can see myself saying "Here, let me put you out of your misery." and putting a bullet through his heart.

But I probably should not even entertain such thoughts. And I think forgiveness follows the same principle as I gave for loving ones enemies.