Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die.

[Hobie]

Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die, you lay in the grave and await the resurrection. Scripture says it plainly, you dont go to Hell or Heaven, you go back to dust in the grave, nothing more.

"19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Genesis 3:19.

"21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 7:21.

"10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?..12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:10&12.

"17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalm 115:17.

"4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish." Psalm 146:4.

"19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This tells us that what happens to man and what happens to the beasts is the same, as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts. They all go to one place, which is the same. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Solomon decleares in Ecclesiastes:

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. The dead are in a completely unconscious state without thought or feeling, just as they would be if they were asleep.

Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep. They aren’t aware of anything at all, or passage of time in any form or communicating with those they left behind. If they return to dust as scripture says, its clear that the dead aren’t taken straight to Heaven, or to Hell for that matter. If they were with God as soon as they died, there would be no need for a Savior or Christs death at the cross. And if they went straight to Hell, there would be no need for the Second Death at the Lake of Fire as the scripture clearly shows us.

"15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:15.

The wicked are not found in the book of life and only at the lake of fire at the end do they find their punishment.

"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

Referring to death as a sleep is what we find throughout the Bible and when someone falls asleep, eventually they wake up again. So, what does it say in scripture as if the Bible describes death like a sleep, like something temporary, we can deduce that there must be some way to come back from death, to ‘“wake up,” as it were. But how does one “wake up” from death?

"14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Luke 14:14.

The idea of resurrection, of someone “waking up” from the dead, is throughout the Bible. Elijah and Elisha, through the power of God, raised people from the dead. Jesus did the same during his time on earth, bringing back a widow’s son, a young girl, and his dear friend Lazarus, proving that God’s power is greater than death. He can get us out of this first death, from this deep coma or sleep in the grave, to life everlasting.

"24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." John 11:24.

Its called the resurrection of the just which scripture tells us will happen at the Second Coming for saints and Christ has the power and has promised to call us from the grave like Lazarus and take us to heaven to be with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom.

"15 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25.

We will be raised in the resurrection of the saints at the first resurrection, and the wicked will have to await the resurrection of damnation. No one goes to Heaven or Hell until these events at the very end at the Second Coming.

 

[Hobie]

Now some people read the Bible and say but I saw where it says things about spirits or ghosts, and even people coming up. Well lets go over it as Gods Word is clear that the dead know nothing...

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecclesiastes 9:5.

And that upon death the "thoughts perish"...

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4.

And clearly God, upon penalty of death, denounced the consulting of mediums or communication with the dead.

"Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God." Leviticus 19:31.

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:27

"Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord." 2 Kings 23:24

Its repeated in many other verses, as God has clearly defined the means of communication with Him and it is not through these who work what what God finds abhorrent or abomination. He communicates through His Word, and through His prophets.

If the spirits that are called up by mediums or channelers are not the spirits of the dead, then they must be spirits of demons or unclean spirits who would deceive man and rob him of salvation. God admonishes through the prophet Isaiah...
"And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter, should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?" Isaiah 8:19

Now the passage 1 Samuel 28:3-25 where Saul consults the medium at Endor who supposedly calls up Samuel to advise the King. The King had been troubled by spirits himself, and had through his own actions severed his connection with God and left cut off....

"And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." 1 Samuel 28:6

Saul, however, went against what God had said, and went basically to the witch and she brought up "gods ascending out of the earth" (demons) to advise him. In verse 14, he asks the medium "what form is he of?" indicating that he did not see Samuel himself. Moreover, the spirit taunted Saul by telling him that his crown would go to his rival. The messages of the spirit did not require visionary powers. David had already been anointed, and Israel had not humbled itself before the Lord, making it more than likely that they would be defeated by the Philistines. As the dead are in a state of unconsciousness, it is evident that the spirit of Samuel did not communicate with Saul. According to the Scriptures, Satan can communicate with man and present himself as an angel of light.

We see it in Matthew 4:1-11 when Christ is accosted by the devil in the wilderness and we see it in other verses..

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ."2 Corinthians 11:13

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times, some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons." 1 Timothy 4:1.

Now as for Lazarus and the "bosom of Abraham", it was just a parable. Lazarus and the Rich man was the last parable out of 5 he told that day. Starting in Luke 16:1 Jesus tells the following parables: The parable of the Lost Sheep, the parable of the Lost Coin, the parable of the Lost Son, the parable of the Shrewd Manager, and the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Even the NIV translation defines this story as being a parable, thus not to be taken literally. Josephus writes on this idea and shows the pagan Hellenistic ideas were being picked up by the Jews by this time, as he believed that the dead went either to heaven or to hell, whilst they awaited the resurrection. The righteous were assigned to a place which was called the "bosom of Abraham", whilst the wicked were separated from them by a deep chasm and were confined to a place where they could hear and see the fires of hell. These views are inconsistent with the clear teachings of Scriptures that the "dead know not anything".

The doctrines of hades, hell and purgatory we find today, are of pagan origin, and the concept of purgatory or the purification process has been in existence since the ancient times in paganism. This idea came into the church from the Greek idea of Hades especially with the use of Greek text and we can see how they came in from the Greek Hellenistic ideas. However, it is not borne out by scripture.

 

[Hobie]

Now there is a place for the wicked of perdition, where the wicked will end up in, but it hasnt happened yet, but it will. We see many passages in scripture on the Lake of Fire and who is going to be cast there.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So what is this lake of fire that the Bible speaks of, is it what Christian call 'Hell'? Well Christ gives us some clues when He said 'As in the Days of Lot', we find it in Luke 17:28.
Luke 17:28
Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

It was just another day, and was starting as usual, and folks were waking up and eating their morning meal and having their morning beverage and doing everything they did every other morning, it looked like another great day and then suddenly everything changed. We see it in the next part of the text:
Luke 17:29-30
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The Bible tells us that Lot escaped out of town and the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. It rained down and it destroyed the city in basically a lake of fire, not the one that will be at the end, but Christ was giving a very true picture of what will happen at the end.

 

[Hobie]

We have many who say I dont have to worry, I am already gone up to heaven because my 'soul' has gone up and have nothing to worry about. Well, scripture tells us the "soul" is a living, breathing creature, the full human being. A "soul" (nephesh in Hebrew) was never a disembodied spirit. The Jews, like the Christians after them, succumbed to the lure of Platonic Greek notions of an immortal soul. It is not, and never was a Bible teaching. The Bible teaches resurrection. Immortality of the soul makes the resurrection redundant because it can only happen to someone who has died. An 'immortal soul' is never dead and has no need to repent or of Christs gift of eternal life.

Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:
Premise

Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


What Happens When We Die

Scripture says it plainly.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


Death Compared to Sleep

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead".

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.

 

[Hobie]

What Happens When we are Resurrected

The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.
Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.

It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.


The Spiritual Conundrum

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


Soul (Nephesh)

To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as #1500;#1456;#1504;#1462;#1445;#1508;#1462;#1513;ׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…

The person who sins…

The individual who sins…


The Spirit (Ruach)

On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach #1512;#1451;ו#1468;#1495;#1463;, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29
29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.
English Name | Hebrew Name
The Spirit of God | Ruach Elohim
The Spirit of the Lord | Ruach Adonai
The Holy Spirit | Ruach Hakkodesh
The Spirit of the Lord God | Ruach Adonai Elohim
The Spirit of God | Ruach-El

Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).

 

[Hobie]

When Jesus Died

When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

Matthew 27:50
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.

Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.

Further Evidence

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

John 3:13
And no man has ascended up to heaven

Scripture is clear what happens....

 

[Hobie]

Now the Bible tells us what happens in the grave for the righteous saints and sinners as they lay there as dust, but also it says what awaits them at the end.

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The word for sleep here is not the same as one sleeping in everyday use. yashen ( from 3462; sleepy: KJV-- asleep, (one out of) sleep slept.

What does sleep mean in this context? The Bible uses this term when speaking of death. The primary verses we find showing the dead have no thoughts or consciousness are:
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, "For the living know they shall die: but the dead know not any thing," and Ecclesiastes 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." Also Psalm 146:4, "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish". Or Psalm 115:17, "The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence" or Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the grave who shall give Thee thanks? And of course, there is Ezek. 18:4, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And in the Old Testament we also find:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?"

1 Samuel 3:3 Samuel was laid down to sleep;

1 Samuel 28:3 Now SAMUEL was DEAD, and all Israel had lamented him, and BURIED HIM in RAMAH,

and also what is happening when we are dead:

Deuteronomy 31:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Psalms 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalms 30:9
What will you gain from my death? What profit from my going to the grave? Are dead people able to praise you? Can they proclaim your unfailing goodness?

Psalms 76:6
At thy rebuke, O God of Jacob, both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep.

Isaiah 57:2
Those who live good lives find peace and rest in death.

Jeremiah 51:39
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:57
And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


In the New Testament we see
Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

John 11:11-14
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Acts 7:59 -60
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13:36
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Corinthians 11:30
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:6
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1 Thessalonians 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2 Peter 3:4
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

And when we will come out of the grave, it is at the resurrection, not when we die.

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Acts 4:2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

And what Christ himself tells us will happen to those who have died, the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of damnation for the wicked.

Luke 14:14
And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

These text clearly show we stay in the grave with no thoughts, and clearly do not go straight to heaven or float in spirit bodies and dwell Gods presence, to say nothing of the wicked who will stay in the grave till the lake of fire.

 

[Hobie]

The saints will get the gift of eternal life, the wicked will find their end in fires of perdition. Its clear in the Bible that man is not of himself immortal. Only God has it as we see...

1 Timothy 6:15-17
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The saints will be given their gift of eternal life at the resurrection at the Second Coming as Jesus gives what He promised.
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1 Corinthians 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The wicked along with the devil and his angels will perish, as sin is brought to an end and those under its bondage meet Gods judgement and are punished with the fire that will separate them from God, as they are consumed as those in Sodom and Gomorrah. We see how the devil is consumed and we see it declares "never shalt thou be any more."

Ezekiel 28:11-19

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Malachi 4:1-3

4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Psalms 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 68:1-3

1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. 3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Psalms 73:27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Isaiah 41:11-12

11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

John 3:14-18

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:9-12

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The wicked will perish, as they suffer their punishment in which they will cease to exist, never to reappear along with sin, and most importantly, death.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[makesends]

Well, @John Bauer , is there what I have called 2nd and 3rd generational logical steps here? Granted, there are a lot of assumptions at the outset, but there are also in any argument, the biggest of which is to assume that our logic involves enough information to make the assumptions valid as we use them. We can say, for example, that God is omnipotent, and we are right to assume so, but that involves not only man-conceived notions, but ignores that we don't know enough about omnipotence to be so sure of our conclusions, as though what we produce from it is Biblical Truth. Above is an example of where that goes.

As for you, @Hobie , I will just point out, as I do pretty much everyone, that your view is wholly rooted in temporal expressions. You think the eternal revolves around OUR concept of time, because that is how you read the many texts you have quoted. Eternal Fact: God spoke all creation into being; We sinned—Christ came and died—Redemption; Human physical death; Christ returned; We were resurrected incorruptible, glorified; Heaven, He our God and we His people. I express those in the past tense, because we have reason to believe extra-temporal God spoke all that into existence. I'm not saying that from our POV those have all come to pass. However, I am saying that when we pass from this life, we have entered the eternal, and are not "waiting". Admittedly, I could be wrong, but it seems wholly reasonable and solid, for many reasons. I could be wrong, I say, but so can you. All your reasoning depends on the establishment of time as governing what has passed beyond this life.

The resurrection is FACT. For the living in this temporal frame, that is future. For the dead, not so much.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, @John Bauer , is there what I have called 2nd and 3rd generational logical steps here? Granted, there are a lot of assumptions at the outset, but there are also in any argument, the biggest of which is to assume that our logic involves enough information to make the assumptions valid as we use them. We can say, for example, that God is omnipotent, and we are right to assume so, but that involves not only man-conceived notions, but ignores that we don't know enough about omnipotence to be so sure of our conclusions, as though what we produce from it is Biblical Truth. Above is an example of where that goes.

As for you, @Hobie , I will just point out, as I do pretty much everyone, that your view is wholly rooted in temporal expressions. You think the eternal revolves around OUR concept of time, because that is how you read the many texts you have quoted. Eternal Fact: God spoke all creation into being; We sinned—Christ came and died—Redemption; Human physical death; Christ returned; We were resurrected incorruptible, glorified; Heaven, He our God and we His people. I express those in the past tense, because we have reason to believe extra-temporal God spoke all that into existence. I'm not saying that from our POV those have all come to pass. However, I am saying that when we pass from this life, we have entered the eternal, and are not "waiting". Admittedly, I could be wrong, but it seems wholly reasonable and solid, for many reasons. I could be wrong, I say, but so can you. All your reasoning depends on the establishment of time as governing what has passed beyond this life.

The resurrection is FACT. For the living in this temporal frame, that is future. For the dead, not so much.

Except that the resurrection of Jesus appears to be granting even those who are lost to get those kind of bodies, in order to exist forever and not be perishing

 

[makesends]

Except that the resurrection of Jesus appears to be granting even those who are lost to get those kind of bodies, in order to exist forever and not be perishing

Supposing ECT to be valid, why should we suppose that it requires some particular kind of body, rather than act of God, in the reality of what they are, to him. Lol, was it the bush that was special, or the fire?

 

[John Bauer]

Well, John Bauer, is there what I have called [Tier 2 or 3 material] here?

Probably. But it’s just a massive wall of text, way too much to dig through. It is nearly 6,500 words! If I were to read it aloud, it would take nearly an hour! He could have—indeed, he should have—split this into five or six separate threads, each dealing with a specific aspect of his argument.

However, I did notice this statement in the first post:

• “Once people die, it’s like if they were to fall into a deep coma or sleep.”

That is Tier 3 stuff—conjecture from inference drawn from revelation. Is it valid? Maybe. But I would prefer to deal with what Scripture says, not with conjectural pictures we can paint from it.

 

[John Bauer]

Supposing ECT to be valid, why should we suppose that it requires some particular kind of body, rather than act of God, in the reality of what they are, to him. Lol, was it the bush that was special, or the fire?

The Belgic Confession of Faith makes the same move, asserting without a shred of warrant that the wicked will be “made immortal” at the judgment. Really? Where does Scripture say that? (It doesn’t.)