I ask then, has God rejected His people?

[Bruiser]

And you would be correct. I began my life in Christ firmly believing in the premil rapture. I never heard anything different and the people promoting it had been Christians much longer than me. They surely couldn't be wrong. So, I was a blind follower. The way in which they use the Scripture sounds right.

But then, only Reformed theology teaches how to put scripture with scripture keeping the entire Bible consistent with itself so one learns to detect the discrepancies and contradictions presented in Dispensationalism and Arminianism. My change from both fields of theology was an outflow of first rejecting Arminianism to then moving away from Dispensationalism which I did not even know that premil rapture was Dispensationalism.

"My people perish for lack of knowledge."

I often wonder what Eschat I'd hold to if I got Saved in another Church. I got Saved in a Reformed Baptist Church, so I hold to Amillenialism. But what if I got Saved in a MacArthur type Church? I was taught Amillenialism, but I would have been taught Premillennial Dispensationalism. We're All taught what to believe. The choice is ours to hold to it...

Sure, we can change our Paradigms over time; but even new beliefs are learned from a Teacher...

 

[Bruiser]

The bible says we won't....As Christians, the bride of Christ, Jesus tells us we'll experience "tribulations"...but not the "great" tribulation.

The tribulation is about the wrath of God poured out...judgement of God, the restoration of Israel...and when you think about it Jesus took our judgement upon Himself as He hung and died on the cross.
As the bible says...we are not destined for wrath.

Do you think Amillenialism teaches the Church will experience the Great Tribulation? If it does, I'll need to look for a different Eschatology...

 

[Bruiser]

Do Premillennial Dispensational Pastors have the Spiritual Gift of Teaching? If they do, aren't they Christians?

Let's say maybe, John MacArthur?

 

[CrowCross]

You say that because of your Dispensational hermeneutic which is literal even when the genre is truth revealed through symbolism. Things become symbolic only when it doesn't interfere with the already derived opinion. It often has half on one sentence being literal and the other half symbolic, even when what is being described is a vision that is obviously symbolic in its nature.

When will you stop forming my thoughts? I have told you several times that Rev contains symbolic language. Thing is, like you I don't treat the entire book as symbolic.

3. You say "biblical rapture" when what you mean is the premil rapture, as though that is the only option, and without having ever proved that that view is biblical.

I have demonstrated several times that the pre-trib rapture view is accurate.
Do we need to discuss the white horse again and why the white horse is not mentioned in 1 Thes 4?
Do we need to speak of the times of Noah and how that description doesn't fit with a post trib rapture?
Do we need to talk about not being destined for wrath?
Do we need to study about how the early church wrote about a delivering rapture?
Do we need to look at Revelation and see the church isn't mentioned after chapter 5?
Do we need to check out what technology is required for Rev 13 to come to fruition?

I have presented biblical views on each of the topics above...plus more...concerning the pre-tribulation rapture.
You disagree...fine.

 

[atpollard]

Do you think Amillenialism teaches the Church will experience the Great Tribulation? If it does, I'll need to look for a different Eschatology...

Amillenialism generally holds that the "Great Tribulation" was in AD 70 when Jerusalem was besieged and everyone suffered greatly, then the Roman Army was recalled to Rome for an emergency election (the "time cut short"). During this brief lifting, Christians fled Jerusalem (I think to Tarsus, but I am not 100% sure about the location). The Roman Army then returned, restored the siege and destroyed the City, Temple and slaughtered the population.

Just as predicted.

The next event is "Jesus returns".

 

[Bruiser]

Amillenialism generally holds that the "Great Tribulation" was in AD 70 when Jerusalem was besieged and everyone suffered greatly, then the Roman Army was recalled to Rome for an emergency election (the "time cut short"). During this brief lifting, Christians fled Jerusalem (I think to Tarsus, but I am not 100% sure about the location). The Roman Army then returned, restored the siege and destroyed the City, Temple and slaughtered the population.

Just as predicted.

The next event is "Jesus returns".

This is what I thought; but I'm open to any good rebuttal. Regarding Futurism, Amillenialism is against any Christian going through the Great Tribulation...

 

[CrowCross]

Do you think Amillenialism teaches the Church will experience the Great Tribulation? If it does, I'll need to look for a different Eschatology...

I don't think those that push Amillennialism here on these forums know what they actually believe. If they do they have never expressed it but rather have only tried to pick apart a pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture of the church.

The Amillennialist by definition don't believe in a literal 1,000 reign of Christ...and believe we are living in that time period (dispensation) right now. Somehow they mold the book of Revelation into their scenario and need to symbolize the book into some obscure meaning....never knowing if their symbolization is the correct interpretation of the symbols.

I understand that many of my literal concepts of what is mentioned in the book of Revelation may be wrong.
For example is the April 13th 2029 event concerning the asteroid Apophis the wormwood event mentioned in Rev 8? Thing is, it makes sense. At any rate the current christians, the bride of Christ won't be here when and if it happens.

 

[CrowCross]

Amillenialism generally holds that the "Great Tribulation" was in AD 70 when Jerusalem was besieged and everyone suffered greatly, then the Roman Army was recalled to Rome for an emergency election (the "time cut short"). During this brief lifting, Christians fled Jerusalem (I think to Tarsus, but I am not 100% sure about the location). The Roman Army then returned, restored the siege and destroyed the City, Temple and slaughtered the population.

Just as predicted.

The next event is "Jesus returns".

Personally I find it difficult to believe in this somewhat preterist view.
Yes the destruction in 70AD was terrible...even predicted...but not necessary qualifies as a time that the world has never seen.
Nor, will ever see again.

I personally all out reject a preterist view as there is much in Revelations that hasn't happened yet. If Revelation has been fulfilled...I'd like to see the historical references for it.

 

[CrowCross]

"My people perish for lack of knowledge."

Are you saying people will perish for believing in a pre-millennial rapture of the church?

 

[Carbon]

Because the pre-trib rapture isn't an error.

Why do you believe in the future christians will enter into the tribulation, that is....we are destined for wrath?

Our Lord suffered but we don’t have to? Think of all the martyrs.

The believers destination is heaven.

The pre-trib rapture is error.

 

[Carbon]

And you would be correct. I began my life in Christ firmly believing in the premil rapture. I never heard anything different and the people promoting it had been Christians much longer than me. They surely couldn't be wrong. So, I was a blind follower. The way in which they use the Scripture sounds right.

But then, only Reformed theology teaches how to put scripture with scripture keeping the entire Bible consistent with itself so one learns to detect the discrepancies and contradictions presented in Dispensationalism and Arminianism. My change from both fields of theology was an outflow of first rejecting Arminianism to then moving away from Dispensationalism which I did not even know that premil rapture was Dispensationalism.

"My people perish for lack of knowledge."

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

The bible says we won't...

Really? Where?

 

[Bruiser]

I don't think those that push Amillennialism here on these forums know what they actually believe. If they do they have never expressed it but rather have only tried to pick apart a pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture of the church.

The Amillennialist by definition don't believe in a literal 1,000 reign of Christ...and believe we are living in that time period (dispensation) right now. Somehow they mold the book of Revelation into their scenario and need to symbolize the book into some obscure meaning....never knowing if their symbolization is the correct interpretation of the symbols.

I understand that many of my literal concepts of what is mentioned in the book of Revelation may be wrong.
For example is the April 13th 2029 event concerning the asteroid Apophis the wormwood event mentioned in Rev 8? Thing is, it makes sense. At any rate the current christians, the bride of Christ won't be here when and if it happens.

I don't have an issue with Premillennial Dispensationalism. I almost hate to ask if Amillenialism teaches we will go through the Tribulation, only since I make my preference about me going through Tribulation. That's not the best way to choose an Eschatological scheme. But it makes an Eschat appealing; say for instance, Preteib is more appealing than Midtrib...

I suppose I do know the framework of Eschatology. My issue is picking one. I chose Amillenialism, but that's no reason to stay with it; if others have 'Convincing Proofs'. Let's just say I'm open Minded ..

I know objections to Premmillenialism; like Newspaper Eisegesis. Perhaps the Asteroid could be an example of that; or perhaps it's a Sign to watch out for. When you see these Signs...

I don't know...

 

[Carbon]

Do Premillennial Dispensational Pastors have the Spiritual Gift of Teaching? If they do, aren't they Christians?

No one denies they are not our brothers in Christ.

Let's say maybe, John MacArthur?

He was a brother in Christ. But I believe he was in serious error concerning eschatology.

 

[Carbon]

I have demonstrated several times that the pre-trib rapture view is accurate.

You’ve done no such thing.

Do we need to discuss the white horse again and why the white horse is not mentioned in 1 Thes 4?
Do we need to speak of the times of Noah and how that description doesn't fit with a post trib rapture?
Do we need to talk about not being destined for wrath?
Do we need to study about how the early church wrote about a delivering rapture?
Do we need to look at Revelation and see the church isn't mentioned after chapter 5?
Do we need to check out what technology is required for Rev 13 to come to fruition?

You do need to do something if you plan on proving dispensationalism correct. So far you have seriously failed

I have presented biblical views on each of the topics above...plus more...concerning the pre-tribulation rapture.
You disagree...fine.

Your biblical views are not the correct views. You just assume they are. Sometimes in your past someone taught you dispensationalism, now you can’t see beyond it.

 

[Bruiser]

Personally I find it difficult to believe in this somewhat preterist view.
Yes the destruction in 70AD was terrible...even predicted...but not necessary qualifies as a time that the world has never seen.
Nor, will ever see again.

I personally all out reject a preterist view as there is much in Revelations that hasn't happened yet. If Revelation has been fulfilled...I'd like to see the historical references for it.

I think talking about Preterism, is like talking about Calvinism; we have Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism. We have Preterism and Partial Preterism. When I debate with Provisionists, they seem to think all Calvinism is Hyper...

All Preterism isn't Full Preterism. You agree 70 AD is fulfilled; you're a Partial Preterist; though surely a mild one. That was the hook that got me snagged; if you think some of the New Testament has been Fulfilled; your a Partial Preterist...

 

[Carbon]

Amillenialism generally holds that the "Great Tribulation" was in AD 70 when Jerusalem was besieged and everyone suffered greatly, then the Roman Army was recalled to Rome for an emergency election (the "time cut short"). During this brief lifting, Christians fled Jerusalem (I think to Tarsus, but I am not 100% sure about the location). The Roman Army then returned, restored the siege and destroyed the City, Temple and slaughtered the population.

Just as predicted.

The next event is "Jesus returns".

Actually Amillennialism holds to a time near the end of this age where things will get real bad (great tribulation).Preterits believe all things are done, nothing more needs to be fulfilled but Christ’s Second Coming.

 

[Carbon]

I don't think those that push Amillennialism here on these forums know what they actually believe. If they do they have never expressed it but rather have only tried to pick apart a pre-tribulation resurrection and rapture of the church.

The Amillennialist by definition don't believe in a literal 1,000 reign of Christ...and believe we are living in that time period (dispensation) right now. Somehow they mold the book of Revelation into their scenario and need to symbolize the book into some obscure meaning....never knowing if their symbolization is the correct interpretation of the symbols.

I understand that many of my literal concepts of what is mentioned in the book of Revelation may be wrong.
For example is the April 13th 2029 event concerning the asteroid Apophis the wormwood event mentioned in Rev 8? Thing is, it makes sense. At any rate the current christians, the bride of Christ won't be here when and if it happens.

I believe us Amillennialists know what we believe. Sometimes some just can’t see beyond their own beliefs to even consider something different. Sad

 

[Carbon]

I don't have an issue with Premillennial Dispensationalism. I almost hate to ask if Amillenialism teaches we will go through the Tribulation, only since I make my preference about me going through Tribulation. That's not the best way to choose an Eschatological scheme.

We should choose an eschatology that aligns with God’s word. One scripture convinces us of.

 

[Bruiser]

Actually Amillennialism holds to a time near the end of this age where things will get real bad (great tribulation).Preterits believe all things are done, nothing more needs to be fulfilled but Christ’s Second Coming.

I would like to know more about the End being real bad. This "real bad" isn't the Great Tribulation, is it?

I suppose a little Post Millennialism has crept in to my Panmillenialism. Post Millennialism is also appealing; but again, Appeal shouldn't be the deciding factor...

That's it! I'm a Eschatological Mutt...