I ask then, has God rejected His people?

[Carbon]

Romans 11
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!

I know this subject is a concern in the church today. I believe dispensationalism has seriously distorted the truth of this subject, and much of the church today is confused and not sure what to believe or agree with concerning it. The dispensationalists have even made up a term for the Amillennialists, those who disagree with them, accusing them of "replacement theology (supersessionism)."

But let me state a fact: Amillennialism (Most anyway) disagrees with the terminology "replacement theology." (I personally disagree with it.) Those who identify themselves with the term have let others characterize themselves in these terms without actually thinking through the meanings or implications.


But what is God's plan for the future of Israel? Does scripture reveal any long-term purpose or plans for the Jews?

Thoughts, comments so far?

 

[Carbon]

Question.

This question is inspired by O. Palmer Robertson's book, The Israel of God.

The beginning of Jesus' ministry indicates the ongoing role of Israel in the kingdom of the Messiah. The designation of exactly twelve disciples shows that Jesus intends to reconstitute the Israel of God through his ministry. He is not, as some suppose, replacing Israel with the church. But he is reconstituting Israel in a way that makes it suitable for the ministry of the new covenant.

Agree or disagree?

 

[Carbon]

Question.

This question is inspired by O. Palmer Robertson's book, The Israel of God.

The beginning of Jesus' ministry indicates the ongoing role of Israel in the kingdom of the Messiah. The designation of exactly twelve disciples shows that Jesus intends to reconstitute the Israel of God through his ministry. He is not, as some suppose, replacing Israel with the church. But he is reconstituting Israel in a way that makes it suitable for the ministry of the new covenant.

Agree or disagree?

For the record. I agree.

 

[Carbon]

Question.

This question is inspired by O. Palmer Robertson's book, The Israel of God.

The beginning of Jesus' ministry indicates the ongoing role of Israel in the kingdom of the Messiah. The designation of exactly twelve disciples shows that Jesus intends to reconstitute the Israel of God through his ministry. He is not, as some suppose, replacing Israel with the church. But he is reconstituting Israel in a way that makes it suitable for the ministry of the new covenant.

Agree or disagree?

For the record, and for the dispensationalists here, he goes on to say:

From this point on, it is not that the church takes the place of Israel, but that the renewed Israel of God is being formed by the shaping of the church. This kingdom will reach beyond the limits of the Israel of the Old Covenant.

 

[Whisper]

But anyway.

 

[Bruiser]

Romans 11
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!

I know this subject is a concern in the church today. I believe dispensationalism has seriously distorted the truth of this subject, and much of the church today is confused and not sure what to believe or agree with concerning it. The dispensationalists have even made up a term for the Amillennialists, those who disagree with them, accusing them of "replacement theology (supersessionism)."

But let me state a fact: Amillennialism (Most anyway) disagrees with the terminology "replacement theology." (I personally disagree with it.) Those who identify themselves with the term have let others characterize themselves in these terms without actually thinking through the meanings or implications.


But what is God's plan for the future of Israel? Does scripture reveal any long-term purpose or plans for the Jews?

Thoughts, comments so far?

When I was new to the Faith, I was given a little book called "The Once and Future Israel". This was how I was introduced to what some call Replacement Theology. I understood it, but would go on to believe more like you. God doesn't replace Spiritual Israel; whether they be a part of the OT Nation of Israel, or the Church...

 

[Arial]

Question.

This question is inspired by O. Palmer Robertson's book, The Israel of God.

The beginning of Jesus' ministry indicates the ongoing role of Israel in the kingdom of the Messiah. The designation of exactly twelve disciples shows that Jesus intends to reconstitute the Israel of God through his ministry. He is not, as some suppose, replacing Israel with the church. But he is reconstituting Israel in a way that makes it suitable for the ministry of the new covenant.

Agree or disagree?

Agree. We maybe need to look at the two words "replace" and "reconstitute".

Replacement would transfer Israel's identity elsewhere.
Reconstitution reinterprets and fulfills Israel's identity in a deeper way.

The "people of God" expands beyond national/ethnic identity to those in Christ from all nations and ethnicity.

 

[Bruiser]

But anyway.

Now donn't be too afraid to Post...

CCAM should be the place to be...

 

[Whisper]

Now donn't be too afraid to Post...

CCAM should be the place to be...

I'm sure it will be. I'm just tired this weekend I think, can't put things into words, though I attempt more than blabbering, I don't always succeed. I think I'm just tired.

David Holwerda wrote an excellent book on Covenant theology entitled "Jesus' and Israel: One Covenant or Two?" I enjoyed it. Israel in her youth was for bringing forth the Son and the Israel of her older age brings in the Harvest and in Christ the full measure comes, and the Kingdom is consummated in her and it's so beautiful.

But books say more.

 

[Carbon]

Agree. We maybe need to look at the two words "replace" and "reconstitute".

Replacement would transfer Israel's identity elsewhere.
Reconstitution reinterprets and fulfills Israel's identity in a deeper way.

The "people of God" expands beyond national/ethnic identity to those in Christ from all nations and ethnicity.

Amen!

 

[Arial]

I'm sure it will be. I'm just tired this weekend I think, can't put things into words, though I attempt more than blabbering, I don't always succeed. I think I'm just tired.

David Holwerda wrote an excellent book on Covenant theology entitled "Jesus' and Israel: One Covenant or Two?" I enjoyed it. Israel in her youth was for bringing forth the Son and the Israel of her older age brings in the Harvest and in Christ the full measure comes, and the Kingdom is consummated in her and it's so beautiful.

But books say more.

I will have to get the book. I started a thread awhile back Who is the Vine? Who is the Root? in Bible Questions and Study you may find interesting. I would appreciate your input when you feel more rested. I did a study on it comparing the OT terms applied to Israel and those same terms. "vine" and "root" applied to Jesus in the NT.

Just that one thing puts Dispensationalism's literal thousand years and two peoples in the dust. At least it did for me. One covenant---the Covenant of Redemption with the Godhead, the promise of Gen 3:15, and everything else (including the Old Covenant with the descendants of Jacob and its Law) are a part of, stages of, the plan of the Covenant of Redemption unfolding through history. @Josheb posted an interesting post there too that brings us back to remembering that it was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, long before God brought them out of Egypt and into a land.

Israel became a nation made up of the "people of God". Israel inherently encompasses "the people of God" who are in a covenant relationship with him. And that is no longer national/ethnic Israel (they definitely are not as they can no longer have a temple or a High Priest to offer the atonement sacrifice. Plus, in general, they still reject Christ as Messiah). The people of God are those in Christ through faith, in a New Covenant.

 

[atpollard]

• [Hos 1:9-10 NASB20] 9 And the LORD said, "Name him Lo-ammi, because you are not My people, and I am not your God." 10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or counted; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "[You are] the sons of the living God."
• [Hos 2:23 NASB20] 23 "I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, '[You are] my God!'"
• [Rom 9:25-26 NASB20] 25 as He also says in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

WHO IS and WHO IS NOT “God’s people” has always been a matter for God to choose.

• [Mat 7:21-23 NASB20] 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
• [Mar 7:6 NASB20] 6 But He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
• [Eze 36:26 NASB20] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
• [Phl 2:13 NASB20] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for [His] good pleasure.

 

[Carbon]

WHO IS and WHO IS NOT “God’s people” has always been a matter for God to choose.

Amen to that!

 

[Carbon]

• [Hos 1:9-10 NASB20] 9 And the LORD said, "Name him Lo-ammi, because you are not My people, and I am not your God." 10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel Will be like the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or counted; And in the place Where it is said to them, "You are not My people," It will be said to them, "[You are] the sons of the living God."
• [Hos 2:23 NASB20] 23 "I will sow her for Myself in the land. I will also have compassion on her who had not obtained compassion, And I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they will say, '[You are] my God!'"
• [Rom 9:25-26 NASB20] 25 as He also says in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

WHO IS and WHO IS NOT “God’s people” has always been a matter for God to choose.

• [Mat 7:21-23 NASB20] 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter.] 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
• [Mar 7:6 NASB20] 6 But He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
• [Eze 36:26 NASB20] 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
• [Phl 2:13 NASB20] 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for [His] good pleasure.

It is encouraging as an Amillennialist to see scripture affirming that the Gentiles are now included in the people of God, having been brought near to God by Christ.

Romans 9:24, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

• [Rom 9:25-26 NASB20] 25 as He also says in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'" 26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

 

[CrowCross]

Just that one thing puts Dispensationalism's literal thousand years and two peoples in the dust. At least it did for me. One covenant---the Covenant of Redemption with the Godhead, the promise of Gen 3:15, and everything else (including the Old Covenant with the descendants of Jacob and its Law) are a part of, stages of, the plan of the Covenant of Redemption unfolding through history. @Josheb posted an interesting post there too that brings us back to remembering that it was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, long before God brought them out of Egypt and into a land.

How is this (your) covenant different than the Dispensationalist?

 

[Arial]

How is this (your) covenant different than the Dispensationalist?

It isn't my covenant. It is Covenant theology.



My position:

One overarching convenantal purpose (Covenant of Redemption).​

History unfolds that one plan progressively (e.g. Genesis 3:15-the fulfillment in Christ.​

​

Dispensationalism:

Multiple dispensations (distinct administrative arrangements).​

Strong discontinuities between them.​

​

Covenant sees development within one plan. Dispensationalism sees successive economies with sharper breaks.

Covenant:

One people of God across time.​

Israel= the people of God understood covenantally, fulfilled in Christ and expanded to include Gentiles.​

​

Dispensationalism

Israel and the Church retain distinct entities​

National Israel retains a separate identity and future.​

​

In covenant theology the OC is a stage within the one redemptive plan and is fulfilled and transformed in the New Covenant.

In Dispensationalism the Mosaic covenant is more sharply distinct and Israel's covenantal promises are not absorbed into the Church but await national fulfillment.

Where this matters the most. Covenant theology always has Christ and the goal and focus. Everything, including Israel is ordered toward him. In Dispensationalism Israel's national promises remain a controlling category, shifting away from Christ.

​

 

[CrowCross]

My position:
One overarching convenantal purpose (Covenant of Redemption).History unfolds that one plan progressively (e.g. Genesis 3:15-the fulfillment in

Dispensationalism:
Multiple dispensations (distinct administrative arrangements).Strong discontinuities between them.

What do you call the period of time from Adam creation to the fall?
What do you call the time between the Fall and the flood?
What do you call the time between when Noan got of the ark and Abraham?
What do you call the time between Abrahan and the Exodus?
What do you call the time between the Exodous and the Death of Jesus on the cross and Pentecost?
What do you call the time between the Pentecost and now?

Keep in mind.....salvation has always been fath.

 

[Bruiser]

And for full honesty sake, there was a truth I needed to speak, and I didn't think anyone should be able to tell me I didn't have the right to say it.

It was a sin, in the end, and I made the excuse. Sorry.

But years of liberals telling me I didn't know anything about a book they'd never even read, let alone lived with, soured me, and while saved, not yet sanctified enough and decide I could mix and match and call it anonymity.

Still no excuse. But people listen to the SPLC.

What's DAR and SPLC?

 

[Arial]

What do you call the period of time from Adam creation to the fall?

The time between creation and the fall.

What do you call the time between the Fall and the flood?

The time between the fall and the flood.

What do you call the time between when Noan got of the ark and Abraham?

The time betwee Noah and Abraham.

What do you call the time between Abrahan and the Exodus?

The time between Abraham and the Exodus.

What do you call the time between the Exodous and the Death of Jesus on the cross and Pentecost?

The time between the Exodus and the death of Jesus and Pentecost.

What do you call the time between the Pentecost and now?

The time between Pentecost and now, or according to Jesus and the apostles, the last days.

The only "time period" that is called anything is the last days. It is the only period of time that is given a particular name in Scripture, so I don't know why someone found it necessary to break redemption into dispensations.

 

[atpollard]

What do you call the period of time from Adam creation to the fall?

The Good Old Days.