How old is the earth?

[TonyChanYT]

Some Christians think the earth is between 6,000 and 15,000 years old, coinciding with the Neolithic Age. Astronomers think it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turned water into wine in John 2:

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

How old was this wine?

If you asked the human observers/witnesses, the servants would say a few seconds old.

The story continued:

9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

If you asked the expert, the banquet master, "How old is this wine?" He would say it was months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true, depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

In the beginning, God created a 5-dimensional universe, 4-dimensional space-time, plus 1 spiritual dimension with dark matter and dark energy.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

How old is the earth?

If we ask an astronomer from a natural perspective, he can only study present-day physical data based on scientific calculations. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific 4-D space-time perspective.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the passage literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time from the 5th-dimensional perspective.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years of real history. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

This is different from Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in real live-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:

6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’

From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:

• 24,000-year-old animal found alive, well, and ready to reproduce
• Fossils reveal what may be the oldest known case of the dino sniffles.

There are two different frameworks of time. Basically, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. On the other hand, space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Both are physically or spatially real in their respective frameworks of time. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

See also Adam, Eve, and evolution.

 

[makesends]

Some Christians think the earth is between 6,000 and 15,000 years old, coinciding with the Neolithic Age. Astronomers think it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turned water into wine in John 2:


How old was this wine?

If you asked the human observers/witnesses, the servants would say a few seconds old.

The story continued:


If you asked the expert, the banquet master, "How old is this wine?" He would say it was months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true, depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:


In the beginning, God created a 5-dimensional universe, 4-dimensional space-time, plus 1 spiritual dimension with dark matter and dark energy.


How old is the earth?

If we ask an astronomer from a natural perspective, he can only study present-day physical data based on scientific calculations. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific 4-D space-time perspective.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the passage literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time from the 5th-dimensional perspective.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years of real history. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

This is different from Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in real live-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:


From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:

• 24,000-year-old animal found alive, well, and ready to reproduce
• Fossils reveal what may be the oldest known case of the dino sniffles.

There are two different frameworks of time. Basically, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. On the other hand, space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Both are physically or spatially real in their respective frameworks of time. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

See also Adam, Eve, and evolution.

Good morning, Tony! Good to see you!

I almost completely agree with you here. Where I don't know enough to agree with you, it is because I don't know enough. This is very much like the way I see the possibilities, but, as I think you would admit, this is "a weighted possible" explanation.

I have been told that it would be God lying to do this, but I say, "Here we are, writing stories and producing theories about manipulating time, and congratulating ourselves for our cleverness, but we can't allow the inventor of time to do as he pleases?"

 

[TonyChanYT]

Good morning, Tony! Good to see you!

Morning, brother.

this is "a weighted possible" explanation.

Right. Much of what I write is that.

I have been told that it would be God lying to do this,

Some people may feel that way, and I'd understand their feelings. However, according to my First-Order Logical explanation, there are no lies or contradictions.

but I say, "Here we are, writing stories and producing theories about manipulating time, and congratulating ourselves for our cleverness, but we can't allow the inventor of time to do as he pleases?"

Sure. God is infinite. My brain is finite

 

[Frank Robert]

Some Christians think the earth is between 6,000 and 15,000 years old, coinciding with the Neolithic Age. Astronomers think it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Does it matter what age of the earth you believe to be? Perhaps it would for an astronomer or scientists where a scientific understanding of the earth and universe is needed but otherwise it's not important at all. It's hard for me to imagine where it would come up outside of forum such as this one.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Does it matter what age of the earth you believe to be? Perhaps it would for an astronomer or scientists where a scientific understanding of the earth and universe is needed but otherwise it's not important at all. It's hard for me to imagine where it would come up outside of forum such as this one.

I am a computer scientist and minor in physics. But you are right, as far as salvation is concerned, it matters not.

 

[EarlyActs]

Some Christians think the earth is between 6,000 and 15,000 years old, coinciding with the Neolithic Age. Astronomers think it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turned water into wine in John 2:


How old was this wine?

If you asked the human observers/witnesses, the servants would say a few seconds old.

The story continued:


If you asked the expert, the banquet master, "How old is this wine?" He would say it was months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true, depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:


In the beginning, God created a 5-dimensional universe, 4-dimensional space-time, plus 1 spiritual dimension with dark matter and dark energy.


How old is the earth?

If we ask an astronomer from a natural perspective, he can only study present-day physical data based on scientific calculations. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific 4-D space-time perspective.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the passage literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time from the 5th-dimensional perspective.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years of real history. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

This is different from Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in real live-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:


From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:

• 24,000-year-old animal found alive, well, and ready to reproduce
• Fossils reveal what may be the oldest known case of the dino sniffles.

There are two different frameworks of time. Basically, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. On the other hand, space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Both are physically or spatially real in their respective frameworks of time. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

See also Adam, Eve, and evolution.

Have you read my thread on detaching time from evolution? It results in one coherent view in which , since evolution does not exist, it does not matter how much time the distant lifeless worlds have been there. Other than that they were created at some point. But Genesis 1 is about the local system and objects in earths ‘firmament.’ It is not when the distant lifeless, non -signaling worlds were made.

Ie, earth is the only place where God created life as we know it on earth. Angels and other entities are quite another matter.

And earth and local creation was recent.

My book is Back In Business at B&N. Just 50 pages.

 

[EarlyActs]

Have you read my thread on detaching time from evolution? It results in one coherent view in which , since evolution does not exist, it does not matter how much time the distant lifeless worlds have been there. Other than that they were created at some point. But Genesis 1 is about the local system and objects in earths ‘firmament.’ It is not when the distant lifeless, non -signaling worlds were made.

My book is Back In Business at B&N.

Dup

 

[TonyChanYT]

evolution does not exist

Referece?

 

[EarlyActs]

Creationwiki.com

Meyer. Signature In The Cell. Many other biology titles.

Behe. Darwin’s Dilemma.

(Doc film) Darwin’s Achilles Heel.

Wilder-Smith. (Biology knows nothing of evolution”)

Tackett. Is Genesis History? (Also doc)

Carson. (Studies on history of dna, Princeton)

Gen 1, Ps 36, 104 etc in normal syntax and grammar (immediate robust complete systems by God speaking them into existence) Christ, 2 Peter 3, which is also a chapter in BIB.

 

[EarlyActs]

IOW, 1:2 allows for an older earth for strange reasons explained in BIB but creation week took place recently. There are Hebrew narrative format reasons why there was time before creation week. It’s also a chapter in BIB.

 

[EarlyActs]

I’ll send the table of contents page within the hour

 

[EarlyActs]

BACK IN BUSINESS

Chapters



Introduction 7



1: The Recitation Transmission of Genesis

until Joseph 15



2: The Lifeless Distant Objects 23



3: Signalers and Messengers 31



4: Pre-Creation Earth as an Incarceration Site 43



5: What Peter Finalized 47



6: The Young, Local Creation Week View 53



Researched and Referenced 57

 

[EarlyActs]

Got Evolution News?

The Enchanted Sleep of Andreas Wagner | Evolution News

Apparently, Darwinian evolution doesn’t actually explain life. This may come as news to some people.

evolutionnews.org

 

[EarlyActs]

Tony,
In your discussions, does "deep time" just mean length or is there always a connection to biological evolution and development. I have been in an email exchange with "Dan" at Genesis Apologetics who so far has not clarified this. But he says "deep time" is the big lie.

As you may know by now, with me, if there is no connection to biological development, I have no problem with long time. And I have read the new findings of the Webb telescope, water 1000 LY away.

 

[EarlyActs]

re Ice Age and Adam:
Job 40? says that God looked on the ocean and it turned to ice.

 

[Frank Robert]

Creationwiki.com

Meyer. Signature In The Cell. Many other biology titles.

Behe. Darwin’s Dilemma.

(Doc film) Darwin’s Achilles Heel.

Wilder-Smith. (Biology knows nothing of evolution”)

Tackett. Is Genesis History? (Also doc)

Carson. (Studies on history of dna, Princeton)

Gen 1, Ps 36, 104 etc in normal syntax and grammar (immediate robust complete systems by God speaking them into existence) Christ, 2 Peter 3, which is also a chapter in BIB.

All religious references. We are all entitled to believe what we wish.

 

[EarlyActs]

My material on the question of longer time periods WITHOUT evolution in my small book BACK IN BUSINESS is now a quarterly journal: THE YOUNG, LOCAL, CREATION-WEEK JOURNAL. PM me for access.

 

[EarlyActs]

FROM THE EDITOR OF THE YOUNG, LOCAL, CREATION WEEK JOURNAL

Since the previous post, I have listened to Psarris (Logos Research) on starlight, and Chaffey (AIG) on Genesis 1. I have to say I am more surprised at what is taken to be "what the Bible says." For ex., with Psarris, he thought that only the phrase 'and the stars also' in 1:16 was all God had to say about stars. "It's not much." There is so much more going on in the whole chapter, but you have to know some vocabulary, some structure and something about the transmission down through the generations. Dr. Psarris did not break out even one Hebrew term.

On the other hand, if I am backtracking cosmology correctly, it is possible that merely 4 years are being added to the picture. This is due to Alpha Centauri being 4 LYA and assuming its light is the 'illumination' of Day 1--when there are no local objects yet! If its light is not sufficient to form a day and night, then we must add Regulus and another. Regulus light is 77 LYA.

In other words, Genesis is quite accurate in tracking arriving starlight. And I now think that 2000 years later, in Gen 15, we have the 'numerous as the stars' phrase because of the arrival of so much starlight.

My view says that it is possible that there is a mass energy release by God before the local scene of Gen 1, not with life nor to make the earth habitable, but to make the distant objects and the earth in its dark, watery, unformed form. (Unfilled is covered by the fact that it is lifeless until creation week). This has a certain randomness to it. And lifeless of course. Even the term darkness in 1:2 carries the meanings of 'abandonment' and 'useless.'

The problem is we are used to thinking the term 'creation' is everything all at once, when there are things that indicate it is only the habitable form that is being affected, recently, and completely. And we think that the heavens and the earth are everything, when in truth, they are the local system plus a couple objects, and this is borne out by v8 where everything is in the firmament, except the stars.

2 Peter 3 supports this; the cult there was only concerned about earth's solvency, not about distant worlds. It supports that there were pre-existing conditions of an uninhabitable earth. Gen 1 merely dates the event of creation week, not the materials of earth.

 

[makesends]

Gen 1 merely dates the event of creation week, not the materials of earth.

Creation ex nihilo is indicated, I believe, in Genesis 1:1. True, it may be taken as introduction to the following verses or a summary of their events, but it also may be taken as a statement in itself, that precedes the events following. Thus, yes, it includes the creation of the "materials of earth".

(Whatever, I can't personally stomach the notion of a god who comes upon an already existing set of circumstances, and organizes it. That is not God, and such a being is only another resident in the universe, no matter how powerful 'he' is.)

 

[Carbon]

(Whatever, I can't personally stomach the notion of a god who comes upon an already existing set of circumstances, and organizes it. That is not God, and such a being is only another resident in the universe, no matter how powerful 'he' is.)

What do you mean?