Hermeneutics Meets the Road: Logic, Reason and the Tier 1 Basics

[makesends]

It's at times like this, that I'm glad I'm an elementary kind of guy. Christ's account of the rich man and Lazarus in Hades and Paradise is enough for me. It shows a Linear Temporal progression; why not accept this as just the way it is?

If God is shown in Scripture by use of temporal language, sequences of his deeds described as temporal events, does that mean that he is subject to time?

But the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus --to me, anyway-- is simply a story, drawn on common thought or even based on a story the audience was familiar with. To me it is only a story, with a moral or two, and a few well-placed thoughts concerning the nature of arrogance and humility, and even including a veiled prophecy. It was not doctrinal instruction concerning the nature of the afterlife. I doubt very much several things in the story, such as a large gap between heaven and hell across which one can speak with Abraham.

While I agree that God does not ask more of our intellect and heart that what our understanding is capable of handling, there is plenty of reason to believe that our simplistic mindsets miss a LOT. In fact, I rather think we will laugh at ourselves for being as blind as we were, once we see HIM as he is.

I don't remember if it was on this site or CF, but there was a thread once on language in Heaven--what sort of thing it would be. While certainly I can't say what it will be like for us, to me there is reason to believe that for God to speak is to cause, and words do not represent things, but are the things themselves. I would be very much surprised if the difference between this temporal realm, and being with God face to face, was not at least that radically different.

 

[Bruiser]

If God is shown in Scripture by use of temporal language, sequences of his deeds described as temporal events, does that mean that he is subject to time?

But the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus --to me, anyway-- is simply a story, drawn on common thought or even based on a story the audience was familiar with. To me it is only a story, with a moral or two, and a few well-placed thoughts concerning the nature of arrogance and humility, and even including a veiled prophecy. It was not doctrinal instruction concerning the nature of the afterlife. I doubt very much several things in the story, such as a large gap between heaven and hell across which one can speak with Abraham.

While I agree that God does not ask more of our intellect and heart that what our understanding is capable of handling, there is plenty of reason to believe that our simplistic mindsets miss a LOT. In fact, I rather think we will laugh at ourselves for being as blind as we were, once we see HIM as he is.

I don't remember if it was on this site or CF, but there was a thread once on language in Heaven--what sort of thing it would be. While certainly I can't say what it will be like for us, to me there is reason to believe that for God to speak is to cause, and words do not represent things, but are the things themselves. I would be very much surprised if the difference between this temporal realm, and being with God face to face, was not at least that radically different.

I've always heard that people debate whether the Rich Man and Lazarus was a Parable or a real Account. If a real Account, sure, it's Linear...

Wouldn't Hades and Paradise have been the Old understanding of the Afterlife? I don't think Jesus was describing Heaven and Hell; but a way station. He was speaking their language; so to speak


How does Jesus Intercede for Us?

 

[makesends]

I've always heard that people debate whether the Rich Man and Lazarus was a Parable or a real Account. If a real Account, sure, it's Linear...

Wouldn't Hades and Paradise have been the Old understanding of the Afterlife? I don't think Jesus was describing Heaven and Hell; but a way station. He was speaking their language; so to speak


How does Jesus Intercede for Us?

I don't follow. What does the question of how Jesus intercedes for us have to do with the subject at hand?

 

[Bruiser]

I don't follow. What does the question of how Jesus intercedes for us have to do with the subject at hand?

Does he do it in (some kind of) Time?

 

[makesends]

Does he do it in (some kind of) Time?

Oh, ok. I don't know, but I don't think so. The Berean Literal: "...wherefore also He is able to save to the uttermost those drawing near to God through Him, always living to intercede for them." Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life; he is God, the very source of life. If he lives to intercede for them, it is he the Father listens to, neither a once and done thing, nor a continuous time-related action, I think. The description is in temporal terms, but obviously eternal in nature, we being completely saved because of his righteousness and position before the Father. As the saying goes, "The Father looks at us through the Son."

The reference, "always living (to make intercession)", I think, has to do with his very person and power. In another thread today, the verse came up, "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with his glorious body, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to Himself."

As always with me, this subject, too, brings all kinds of others with it, and I have to be careful not to go off topic. But I do want to say that while this may well be indicative of what WE see as temporal sequences of God's works upon us, and thus appropriately phrased in temporal language, it may also be that we really have no better way of describing it --and the intercession, like the living, may even be part and parcel with the covenant they had together from the beginning.

 

[Bruiser]

Oh, ok. I don't know, but I don't think so. The Berean Literal: "...wherefore also He is able to save to the uttermost those drawing near to God through Him, always living to intercede for them." Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life; he is God, the very source of life. If he lives to intercede for them, it is he the Father listens to, neither a once and done thing, nor a continuous time-related action, I think. The description is in temporal terms, but obviously eternal in nature, we being completely saved because of his righteousness and position before the Father. As the saying goes, "The Father looks at us through the Son."

The reference, "always living (to make intercession)", I think, has to do with his very person and power. In another thread today, the verse came up, "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with his glorious body, by the exertion of the power that he has even to subject all things to Himself."

As always with me, this subject, too, brings all kinds of others with it, and I have to be careful not to go off topic. But I do want to say that while this may well be indicative of what WE see as temporal sequences of God's works upon us, and thus appropriately phrased in temporal language, it may also be that we really have no better way of describing it --and the intercession, like the living, may even be part and parcel with the covenant they had together from the beginning.

How about a day is like a thousand years? Does this also mean a day, a thousand years; are like Frozen time?

 

[makesends]

How about a day is like a thousand years? Does this also mean a day, a thousand years; are like Frozen time?

I don't see it that way, but I once did, and it serves the purpose. When I consider God's realm I consider pretty much all our concepts to not apply to him. (For example, for him to think may be for him to do. He doesn't think like we do. He doesn't have to weigh options, nor figure out the best way.) So, it is not as though there is no activity, and I'm relatively sure that cause and effect still applies; thus I say, not "frozen time", because there is activity --(so much so, I think, that we would die immediately from effort were he not our very sustenance, he our rest.)

 

[Bruiser]

I don't see it that way, but I once did, and it serves the purpose. When I consider God's realm I consider pretty much all our concepts to not apply to him. (For example, for him to think may be for him to do. He doesn't think like we do. He doesn't have to weigh options, nor figure out the best way.) So, it is not as though there is no activity, and I'm relatively sure that cause and effect still applies; thus I say, not "frozen time", because there is activity --(so much so, I think, that we would die immediately from effort were he not our very sustenance, he our rest.)

I understand the concept God is speaking to Us in the Bible, in Terms we can conceive of; but I also understand the Holy Spirit is revealing meaning to Us. Both a day and a year are Concepts of Time...

I wonder how the Man Jesus sees All this?


Thanks for tarrying with me. I'm just pressing you...

 

[Bruiser]

I don't see it that way, but I once did, and it serves the purpose. When I consider God's realm I consider pretty much all our concepts to not apply to him. (For example, for him to think may be for him to do. He doesn't think like we do. He doesn't have to weigh options, nor figure out the best way.) So, it is not as though there is no activity, and I'm relatively sure that cause and effect still applies; thus I say, not "frozen time", because there is activity --(so much so, I think, that we would die immediately from effort were he not our very sustenance, he our rest.)

24 Elders ~ by ReverendRV * January 3

Revelation 5:5 BLB; And one of the elders says to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has overcome to open the scroll and its seven seals."

In the book of Revelation the Apostle John saw Heaven with his own eyes, and beheld many Wonders. He saw Jesus and many angels; and saw Twenty Four Elders, and a crowd of people so numerous that they could not be counted. John also saw a Scroll in Heaven which no one was worthy to open; and this caused him to weep. But I want to focus on the Elder who spoke to John and told him not to weep, since the Lion of the tribe of Judah has prevailed in Life and can open the scroll. You ask, “Why is this Elder such a great Wonder?” ~ The Church teaches the Twenty Four Elders consist of representatives from the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ. This means that there was a fifty percent chance that John knew this Elder because John was one of the twelve Apostles. Could you imagine John’s awe if the Elder who spoke to him was he himself; the Glorified Saint John?? It’s hard to imagine that we are already in Eternity. ~ Have you ever Lied, Stolen, or committed Adultery? Then you’re already Condemned; you need to be Pardoned by God before your destination is declared by the Judge of the world. When you are condemned already, pleading ‘Nolo’ results in a Guilty Verdict…

If you long to be with your loved one and don’t know how to go to him, first go to Jesus Christ. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life; and no one goes to Heaven without being seated by this Royal Usher. You cannot take your Sins to Heaven so you will have to leave them behind. The way you do this is by God’s Grace through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior; do this and you will be pardoned! Now there will never be a time that you’ll be without your Saved loved ones; your Welcome Home party awaits your triumphal entry. Jesus will wipe away every tear from our eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore; for in one sense the former things have passed away; Praise God!

Romans 8:30 says, ‘Moreover whom He Predestined, these He also Called; whom He Called, these He also Justified; and whom He Justified, these He also Glorified.’ In our perspective we are not in Heaven but in Gods perspective we are already Glorified. ~ Have you lost a loved one who was a Christian? Like John, it may boggle our Mind to think we’re already Glorified in the Heavenly realm. Time doesn’t exist in eternity and it may feel like a few minutes have passed by for your loved one upon his entry into Heaven, before you’re with him; even after you spend a long life here. Or your loved one may be surprised to see you, when he makes his triumphal entry, and you’re there to hear Jesus cry out, ‘Finally; the one whom I have loved is here!’ Oh, how the nuances of eternity can test the limits of our Minds; but if it can be possible the Apostle John met himself in Heaven, it’s possible you’re Glorified with him; did John see you?

2nd Corinthians 2:14 KJV; Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in evey place.

 

[Bruiser]

24 Elders ~ by ReverendRV * January 3

Revelation 5:5 BLB; And one of the elders says to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has overcome to open the scroll and its seven seals."

In the book of Revelation the Apostle John saw Heaven with his own eyes, and beheld many Wonders. He saw Jesus and many angels; and saw Twenty Four Elders, and a crowd of people so numerous that they could not be counted. John also saw a Scroll in Heaven which no one was worthy to open; and this caused him to weep. But I want to focus on the Elder who spoke to John and told him not to weep, because the Lion of the tribe of Judah has prevailed in Life and can open the scroll. You ask, “Why is this Elder such a great Wonder?” ~ The Church teaches the Twenty Four Elders consist of representatives from the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles of Jesus Christ. This means that there was a fifty percent chance that John knew this Elder because John was one of the twelve Apostles. Could you imagine John’s awe if the Elder who spoke to him was he himself; the Glorified Saint John?? It’s hard to imagine that we are already in Eternity. ~ Have you ever Lied, Stolen, or committed Adultery? Then you’re already Condemned; you need to be Pardoned by God before your destination is declared by the Judge of the world. When you are condemned already, pleading ‘Nolo’ results in a Guilty Verdict…

If you long to be with your loved one and don’t know how to go to him, first go to Jesus Christ. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life; and no one goes to Heaven without being seated by this Royal Usher. You cannot take your Sins to Heaven so you will have to leave them behind. The way you do this is by God’s Grace through Faith in the risen Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior; do this and you will be pardoned! Now there will never be a time that you’ll be without your Saved loved ones; your Welcome Home party awaits your triumphal entry. Jesus will wipe away every tear from our eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore; for in one sense the former things have passed away; Praise God!

Romans 8:30 says, ‘Moreover whom He Predestined, these He also Called; whom He Called, these He also Justified; and whom He Justified, these He also Glorified.’ In our perspective we are not in Heaven but in Gods perspective we are already Glorified. ~ Have you lost a loved one who was a Christian? Like John, it may boggle our Mind to think we’re already Glorified in the Heavenly realm. Time doesn’t exist in eternity and it may feel like a few minutes have passed by for your loved one upon his entry into Heaven, before you’re with him; even after you spend a long life here. Or your loved one may be surprised to see you, when he makes his triumphal entry, and you’re there to hear Jesus cry out, ‘Finally; the one whom I have loved is here!’ Oh, how the nuances of eternity can test the limits of our Minds; but if it can be possible the Apostle John met himself in Heaven, it’s possible you’re Glorified with him; did John see you?

2nd Corinthians 2:14 KJV; Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in evey place.

See; I can wonder too

 

[John Bauer]

If God is shown in Scripture by use of temporal language, sequences of his deeds described as temporal events, does that mean that he is subject to time?

No. But then God, alone, is not creaturely. All else is. It is invalid to think that temporality is ultimately not real for creatures since God is not temporal. That does not follow validly. God’s transcendence is not a communicable attribute distributed across created order.

Luke 16:19-31 is telling us something about creaturely realms, not about God.

 

[makesends]

No. But then God, alone, is not creaturely. All else is. It is invalid to think that temporality is ultimately not real for creatures since God is not temporal. That does not follow validly. God’s transcendence is not a communicable attribute distributed across created order.

Luke 16:19-31 is telling us something about creaturely realms, not about God.

While I agree with the fact that we are forever creatures, I don't agree that temporality necessarily applies to the afterlife. As I see it, it is necessarily about the 'realm' we occupy now, but that doesn't mean that it pursues us past temporal death because we are creatures. While I'd be harder pressed to make the point than I'm willing to extend effort, I have not seen you prove that it does apply to the afterlife.

If you have, in this thread, (or in the previous), I either did not see it, or didn't follow your reasoning, or didn't agree with your reasoning which comes to the same thing. If you are up to it, (and you, too, @Arial), I'd appreciate thread title and post numbers, where you did so.

If your claim that Luck 16:19-31 is about creaturely realms means that the story teaches temporal existence in the afterlife, then we've gone nowhere. I disagree that it does. I see no proof that it is for doctrine concerning the state of existence in the afterlife, but rather, as I've said many times now, that it is about the stubborn disbelief endemic the heart of man, and humility vs arrogance, and a couple of other things. It's a story, not an account of actual events.

It might be interesting if you would start a thread on Biblical affirmation of the story, that Father Abraham is of some recognizable authority in the afterlife, and that across a great gulf can be shouted conversations.

I'm even a little curious why in this afterlife, those who had not believed are in pain and burning heat, almost as though they are even in torment in the Lake of Fire. The rich man doesn't seem to be worried that things will get worse for him. (But maybe he didn't know he was soon to be utterly destroyed and be unable to converse further with Father Abraham in the hopes of some pity.)

 

[Bruiser]

God is Spirit...

This means he's Spaceless and Timeless...

But how does the Man Jesus deal with that? Because of the Communicatio Idiomatum, isn't Christ's concept of Time shared with God Experientially?


This Topic seems to be "Fine Line" stuff...
Convinced in your own Mind stuff...

 

[makesends]

God is Spirit...

This means he's Spaceless and Timeless...

But how does the Man Jesus deal with that? Because of the Communicatio Idiomatum, isn't Christ's concept of Time shared with God Experientially?

I don't think of Christ as anything different from God himself --that is, I don't think of "concept of time" he experienced as 'needing shared with' God.

Also, I don't think of God's realm as timeless in the sense that most might. That is, to say it is timeless is to depend on the definition of time for the definition of timelessness. To me, it is not that, but, rather (perhaps), something in which time is swallowed up, absorbed. I also think of Christ's humanity in the same way, and that we being made in the image of God may have something to do with this.

But, yeah, granted --speculation, and not well-defined.

This Topic seems to be "Fine Line" stuff...
Convinced in your own Mind stuff...

Agreed, but as @John Bauer and @Arial would tell you, my vague and speculative concepts do color how I read and use Scripture. I am definitely biased. I am convinced that there is so much more there that we cannot know as yet, that our bold statements concerning the afterlife maybe should be tempered with a bit of self-skepticism.

 

[Bruiser]

I don't think of Christ as anything different from God himself --that is, I don't think of "concept of time" he experienced as 'needing shared with' God.

Also, I don't think of God's realm as timeless in the sense that most might. That is, to say it is timeless is to depend on the definition of time for the definition of timelessness. To me, it is not that, but, rather (perhaps), something in which time is swallowed up, absorbed. I also think of Christ's humanity in the same way, and that we being made in the image of God may have something to do with this.

But, yeah, granted --speculation, and not well-defined.

Agreed, but as @John Bauer and @Arial would tell you, my vague and speculative concepts do color how I read and use Scripture. I am definitely biased. I am convinced that there is so much more there that we cannot know as yet, that our bold statements concerning the afterlife maybe should be tempered with a bit of self-skepticism.

In one of my Gospel Tracts, I compare Heaven to a Steady State Universe; something Eternal...

Kardashev 5? ~ by ReverendRV * June 16

Revelation 21:1 NIV; Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

When Cosmologists speculate about the existence of Extraterrestrials, they tend to categorize potential civilizations by using the Kardashev Scale; proposed by the Astronomer Nicolai Kardashev long ago in the 60’s. This Scale has three categories based on the use of available energy; Planetary, Stellar and Galactic. Because of the advancement in Quantum Theory, proposals have been made to add a fourth and fifth category to the Scale; Universal and Multiversal Power! Inherent in this proposal is the contingency for the existence of Life which Transcends the Universe; right? Scientist suggest that it’s possible for several kinds of Universes to exist outside of Space and Time; so a ‘Steady State’ Universe could exist. This type of Universe would be Eternal, populated by Eternal people with Multiversal Power. And being Eternal, this demands that it be the ‘Parent Universe’ of all Universes. ~ In a way, Science catches up with the Bible without even knowing it; after all, Heaven, Earth, and Hell would qualify to be a Multiverse; right?

If Kardashev 5 Aliens came to Earth and demanded we keep their law, would you do it? I suppose you wouldn’t have a choice; they have the Might, and Right, as the obvious Creators of the Multiverse. Since a ‘Steady State’ Universe cannot evolve into new Universes, we are their Creation. Such an advanced civilization should be highly ethical, so their Laws would be similar to fundamental Laws we’re already under. ~ Have you ever Stolen ANYTHING? What would someone from a Kardashev 5 society call you for Stealing? “They wouldn’t call me anything, because I took it from MY job”. But remember, you’re under their Law; and they own the World and everything in it, anything you’ve Stolen you’ve stolen from them. ~ Stealing is only one of God’s Ten Commandments; if he judged you by his standard, will you be guilty? The Bible says breaking one Law breaks all of them; even Murder. Would you go to Heaven or to Hell?

God is highly ethical, so he has to love Justice; but he’s just as Merciful. ~ For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not be cast into the Universe of Hell but be received with open arms in the Universe of Heaven. The Logos of God came down from above to be Incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ, to keep the Law of Heaven for Mankind. Though he was not a Lawbreaker, his Cross bore a sign charging him for being the King they didn’t want. He will freely trade you his sign for the sign from the Cross next to his, a sign now charging him with Thievery. He shed his blood and died on the Cross as a Thief, the Just dying for the Unjust. He was buried, but arose from the dead; showing he was alive to five hundred people. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, apart from meritorious Works lest we boast in ourselves. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; go to Church and ask them for a Bible. ~ I always say Science will eventually prove the Bible is true…

Ec 1:9 NLT; History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly
new.

 

[makesends]

In one of my Gospel Tracts, I compare Heaven to a Steady State Universe; something Eternal...

Kardashev 5? ~ by ReverendRV * June 16

Revelation 21:1 NIV; Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

When Cosmologists speculate about the existence of Extraterrestrials, they tend to categorize potential civilizations by using the Kardashev Scale; proposed by the Astronomer Nicolai Kardashev long ago in the 60’s. This Scale has three categories based on the use of available energy; Planetary, Stellar and Galactic. Because of the advancement in Quantum Theory, proposals have been made to add a fourth and fifth category to the Scale; Universal and Multiversal Power! Inherent in this proposal is the contingency for the existence of Life which Transcends the Universe; right? Scientist suggest that it’s possible for several kinds of Universes to exist outside of Space and Time; so a ‘Steady State’ Universe could exist. This type of Universe would be Eternal, populated by Eternal people with Multiversal Power. And being Eternal, this demands that it be the ‘Parent Universe’ of all Universes. ~ In a way, Science catches up with the Bible without even knowing it; after all, Heaven, Earth, and Hell would qualify to be a Multiverse; right?

If Kardashev 5 Aliens came to Earth and demanded we keep their law, would you do it? I suppose you wouldn’t have a choice; they have the Might, and Right, as the obvious Creators of the Multiverse. Since a ‘Steady State’ Universe cannot evolve into new Universes, we are their Creation. Such an advanced civilization should be highly ethical, so their Laws would be similar to fundamental Laws we’re already under. ~ Have you ever Stolen ANYTHING? What would someone from a Kardashev 5 society call you for Stealing? “They wouldn’t call me anything, because I took it from MY job”. But remember, you’re under their Law; and they own the World and everything in it, anything you’ve Stolen you’ve stolen from them. ~ Stealing is only one of God’s Ten Commandments; if he judged you by his standard, will you be guilty? The Bible says breaking one Law breaks all of them; even Murder. Would you go to Heaven or to Hell?

God is highly ethical, so he has to love Justice; but he’s just as Merciful. ~ For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not be cast into the Universe of Hell but be received with open arms in the Universe of Heaven. The Logos of God came down from above to be Incarnated in the person of Jesus Christ, to keep the Law of Heaven for Mankind. Though he was not a Lawbreaker, his Cross bore a sign charging him for being the King they didn’t want. He will freely trade you his sign for the sign from the Cross next to his, a sign now charging him with Thievery. He shed his blood and died on the Cross as a Thief, the Just dying for the Unjust. He was buried, but arose from the dead; showing he was alive to five hundred people. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, apart from meritorious Works lest we boast in ourselves. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; go to Church and ask them for a Bible. ~ I always say Science will eventually prove the Bible is true…

Ec 1:9 NLT; History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly
new.

FWIW, whether Kardashev 5 or the God to which we admit, if it (they, or He) is the creator, it has a good reason to do so, and it is not for the purpose of torment or evil. Thus, HE (it, them) is(are), as creator, our owner and our source of life, and our upholder of existence itself. Whether or not I disagree with the notion of and reasoning for Kard 5 as creator, IF it is creator, it can logically only be so for its own purposes; it is not under compulsion to its creation--it is self-existent.

That doesn't mean that some portion of what he(it, they) created won't be tormented or that evil will not come to pass for his reasons, but the fact is that would not be an end in itself --that would be boring and useless.

Kind of ironic to my mind, that science will (if it does at all) prove God's existence several different ways; it already has, but doesn't know it, by its insistence of and dependence on cause-and-effect. The scientific community doesn't like to talk about it much, because the fact is staring them right in the face, and they have to equivocate to avoid looking stupid, Romans 1 style, but existence itself demands explanation. All they have done so far is kick the can down the road.

 

[Bruiser]

FWIW, whether Kardashev 5 or the God to which we admit, if it (they, or He) is the creator, it has a good reason to do so, and it is not for the purpose of torment or evil. Thus, HE (it, them) is(are), as creator, our owner and our source of life, and our upholder of existence itself. Whether or not I disagree with the notion of and reasoning for Kard 5 as creator, IF it is creator, it can logically only be so for its own purposes; it is not under compulsion to its creation--it is self-existent.

That doesn't mean that some portion of what he(it, they) created won't be tormented or that evil will not come to pass for his reasons, but the fact is that would not be an end in itself --that would be boring and useless.

Kind of ironic to my mind, that science will (if it does at all) prove God's existence several different ways; it already has, but doesn't know it, by its insistence of and dependence on cause-and-effect. The scientific community doesn't like to talk about it much, because the fact is staring them right in the face, and they have to equivocate to avoid looking stupid, Romans 1 style, but existence itself demands explanation. All they have done so far is kick the can down the road.

That Tract is just an example of becoming All things in Hope to win some. Most Materialists will ignore it; but what about some?

I just was wondering if a Steady State Universe would deal with Time differently?

 

[John Bauer]

While I agree with the fact that we are forever creatures, I don't agree that temporality necessarily applies to the afterlife.

I know you don’t agree. The question is:

• Why?

Is it because you have read something in Scripture that indicates temporality may not apply to the afterlife? If so, then please show me those relevant texts.

Or is it because nothing about God is temporal? If so, then that fails for the reason I gave previously: “It is invalid to think that temporality is ultimately not real for creatures since God is not temporal.” It is invalid because it blurs the Creator–creature distinction, which is a radical category error. It confuses what is proper to the Creator with what belongs to creatures. “God alone is not creaturely. All else is.”

If there is some other basis for your view, then state it plainly. At this point, however, the one is exegetically unproven (which can be remedied) and the other is metaphysically (and logically) invalid.

I should also add that it’s exegetically invalid to use God’s non-temporal mode of being as a basis for second-guessing what Scripture says about the creaturely mode of being. Whether here or the hereafter, creaturely remains creaturely. The afterlife does not erase the Creator–creature distinction. We are glorified, not deified.

As I see it, [temporality] is necessarily about the 'realm' we occupy now, but that doesn't mean that it pursues us past temporal death [just] because we are creatures.

If time is a feature of creation (it is), and the creaturely remains creaturely into the hereafter (it does), then on what basis do you believe that temporal succession doesn’t follow us into the afterlife? Perhaps we have returned to my question above.

Time in the afterlife may be insignificant, unmeasured, or phenomenologically unlike our present experience, but that is very different from saying the creaturely is no longer temporal.

While I'd be harder pressed to make the point than I'm willing to extend effort, …

I should think it would take hardly any effort at all. Are you not already familiar with how you reached your view?

Or are you suggesting that none of this is worth the effort?

Capable and worthy are very different questions.

I have not seen you prove that [temporality] does apply to the afterlife.

Scripture already does that. For example,

“Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life—water as clear as crystal—pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations. And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him, and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads” (Rev 22:1-4; all emphases added).

… that Father Abraham is of some recognizable authority in the afterlife, …

It is not Abraham as such, but Abraham’s bosom (kolpos, literally breast or lap). The image represents the blessed abode of the righteous dead in Hades/Sheol. Lazarus is in a state of covenantal comfort there, while the rich man is in a state of torment.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
While I agree with the fact that we are forever creatures, I don't agree that temporality necessarily applies to the afterlife.

I know you don’t agree. The question is:

• Why?

Is it because you have read something in Scripture that indicates temporality may not apply to the afterlife? If so, then please show me those relevant texts.

Much I read in Scriptures indicates temporality as we know it may not apply to the afterlife. But that is beside the point. My inability to show any tier 1 indicators does not invalidate my point. It only makes it suspect. I can quote many passages that bring OUR VIEW of temporality into question--even in this temporal realm--but they don't necessarily point to a lack of temporality in the afterlife, but, at the most, as far as I can tell, a lack of our current understanding of just what temporality means, if there even is such a thing in the afterlife.

Or is it because nothing about God is temporal? If so, then that fails for the reason I gave previously: “It is invalid to think that temporality is ultimately not real for creatures since God is not temporal.” It is invalid because it blurs the Creator–creature distinction, which is a radical category error. It confuses what is proper to the Creator with what belongs to creatures. “God alone is not creaturely. All else is.”

It is not because NOTHING about God is temporal. I don't even know what "temporal" is, as God sees it, well enough to make such a statement --(even if I have made such a statement in haste at some point(s), which I doubt I have). And please don't argue that that view removes all meaning from "temporal", which sort of argument seems to be your penchant. That WE don't know enough the way God sees things DOES indicate that our concepts are short of facts--not meaningless or useless (though, admittedly, I may have used such terms exuberantly or hyperbolically in the past.)

If there is some other basis for your view, then state it plainly. At this point, however, the one is exegetically unproven

Agreed it is not exegetically proven. And I don't know if that can be remedied here. I can quote much that means to me what I hold to: (That we know very little about the particulars of, or even the mode of, the afterlife, yet more is shown us in Scripture than we can currently comprehend.) But you won't see these the way I do. To you, they do not make a tier 2 or 3 proposition. To me, they establish at least a tier 3 proposition: 'We don't really know what we are talking about."

"My ways are not your ways."
"As far as the east is from the west, so far have I removed your sins from you."
"He is not a man, that he should..."
"which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all"
"The Lord is exalted over all the nations,
his glory above the heavens.
Who is like the Lord our God,
the One who sits enthroned on high,
who stoops down to look
on the heavens and the earth?"
"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!"
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

(which can be remedied) and the other is metaphysically (and logically) invalid.

And there's your bold claim again. That I am unable (or unwilling) to invalidate your argument does not render my statement logically invalid, and that I am unable to adequately represent what I want to say, or even to inadequately hold a cogent concept in my head that I wish to represent, does not render that concept/statement invalid--at least, as intended. The truth is the truth, no matter who is right about it.

That being said, the argument you present, if I may try to represent it here, that to 'remove' the temporality from creaturehood removes the distinction between creature and Creator, to me is at best puerile and at worst superstitious, and neither one logical. I hope that is not quite what you meant. If I may present a claim someone I know made, as an analogy --a man very dedicated to the Lord, and if I was to hold to the "Spiritual Gifts" as he does, I would say he had the Gift of Evangelism, not of Doctrine nor Discernment nor about 5 others-- thus: "It is impossible for a saved believer to be possessed by an evil spirit because he is already possessed by the Spirit of God, who cannot abide with an evil spirit." He was talking beyond what he knows, and conflating physical principles with the spiritual.

I should also add that it’s exegetically invalid to use God’s non-temporal mode of being as a basis for second-guessing what Scripture says about the creaturely mode of being. Whether here or the hereafter, creaturely remains creaturely. The afterlife does not erase the Creator–creature distinction. We are glorified, not deified.

Not that this following makes any real difference, but let me restate with a slight difference:
While I agree with the fact that [forever we are] creatures, I don't agree that temporality necessarily applies to the afterlife.

I mean to show a difference in the 'realm' I (whether you or 'we' commonly) refer to as 'temporal' vs the 'heavenly' realm. And that I say we don't even know enough about existence to see how God sees temporality in THIS realm, does not mean that I have removed distinctions between it and God's economy ('spirit realm', heaven, or whatever other levels or realms there are outside of or enveloping this one). It only means that I don't categorize in the firm clear-cut, concrete, distinctions you do.

So, while you may say that now I have changed my parameters, (I have only restated to try to show my view more expanded: my view remains the same), I am trying to help you see that I don't hold the distinctions you do between, 1. Temporal vs Eternal as necessarily separate (at least, in the WAY you see the distinctions); and, 2. Temporal vs Eternal as necessarily coincident (at least, in the WAY you see them as coincident). I see the temporal as swallowed up into the eternal, and this little view we have now as mere humans as stilted and necessarily childish, ignorant.


You will probably progress from this into your repeated, "Let's see the exegesis." Good for you! But I will say this I have seen. Your exegesis (which I generally admire) and your logic (which I also admire) both depend on your concrete categories. I don't hold to that categorization in the way you do. I very much DO hold to two categories, however. God is not creature, nor creature, God. And that is by no means a duality, as though the one is in any way equal to the other, (nor opposed to the other, except by God's will).

I may get the rest of your post later, but I want this much understood and answered. I don't categorize how you do, and I don't think concretely how you do. I don't mean to criticize as though you should do different, but I DO think believers should have some healthy self-skepticism about their concepts and conclusions.

 

[prism]

2. The science of interpretation and explanation; exegesis; esp., that branch of theology which defines the laws whereby the meaning of the Scriptures is to be ascertained.

I suppose by defining hermeneutics as a 'science', by default, that would rule out any possibility of it being an art? (just asking)