I think perhaps I misunderstood his comment (post #16) as not wanting any responses but Dave's, rather than a solicitation to Dave.As Grandma would say, "Now, children..."
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I think perhaps I misunderstood his comment (post #16) as not wanting any responses but Dave's, rather than a solicitation to Dave.As Grandma would say, "Now, children..."
Hey, I'm just trying to understand what happened.As Grandma would say, "Now, children..."
Is Wuest's statement correct?@Josheb
I didn't say the OT was irrelevant. That's a red herring. Are you claiming that OT saints were saved by the blood of goats and calves, or is that irrelevant? You see, neither is true. The OT saints were not saved by the blood of goats and calves, nor does that make the OT irrelevant. It's the OT, as Jesus Himself says, that testifies of Him. The OT was replaced by a better Testament activated by the Testator Himself. The OT is types of the NT. It's all explained in the book of Hebrews itself. The first Testament was powerless, as it could not save. That's why it testified of Jesus, the actual, Who could. The types of the OT foreshadowed the NT reality.
"For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives."
Wuest was chosen because He wrote this outline and I don't know of anyone else who has done a similar work. It helped me in understanding the book of Hebrews to see it in it's entire context, like the outline provided. Though many have copied my copy, it was me who copied this outline by hand from my "Wuest new Testament studies in the Greek" four volume set twenty years ago. He was also chosen because I have read some of his work and for the most part, at least as far as I can tell, it was in line with Scripture. I think Weust is qualified because, not only is he a theologian, but he is also one of the translators of the NSAB. He knows the NT Greek better that everyone here put together.
Dave
See post #21.Hey, I'm just trying to understand what happened.
@JoshebIs Wuest's statement correct?
Is the statement, "The New Testament is better than and takes the place of the First Testament because its Founder, the Messiah, is better than... (1:1-8:6)" correct? (it's a yes or no question)
Is the New Testament better than the First Testament? (It's a yes or no question)
Does the New Testament take the place of the First Testament? (it's a yes or no question)
Is the assertion the Messiah is the author of the New Testament justification for the claim the New Testament is better? (it's a yes or no question)
Why the obfuscation when it would have been MUCH easier to just answer the question(s) asked AND collaboratively further the conversation?
Well then, I will not belabor the matter further with you but, when I have time, I will further explain how and why that statement is NOT correct and some of what that means for the outline of the book of Hebrews. For now, I will simply reiterate a previous observation: Both Wuest and MacArthur are Dispensationalists. As Dispensationalists they divide the Bible differently than non-Dispensationalists. Every single book of the Bible they read, outline, and explain is explained through the Dispensationalist hermeneutic. In other words, Dispensationalists do not parse scripture like the rest of Christendom (and Dispensationalist leaders are not usually forthcoming with that fact). That, in turn, means what this op is providing is a Dispensationalist outline of Hebrews, not an exegetically objective outline of Hebrews.
JoshebThank you. I will address that content after I read answers to my specific questions. Until then.....
John MacArthur is not an excellent teacher. A great deal of discernment should be used when reading/hearing MacArthur. He is (sorta) soteriologically monergist but theologically Dispensationalist and, as a consequence, has a number of internal conflicts within his teaching. I have mentioned a few categories where these errors occur in my ops critical of Dispensational Premillennialism (scroll down on that linked-to page. There are six of them). I can expand on this in greater detail but it will take us off topic from this op.
Op-topically..... The short answer to my inquiries is you think JMac an excellent teacher. However, that does not answeror address the veracity of Wuest's opening statement. You have repeated Wuest's comment in Post 11 and I wonder why becauseit is not correct! The New Covenant does NOT replace the Old Covenant,* and you've just played bait and switch. Wuest said "Testament," "not "Covenant." The questions is, "Does the New Testament replace the Old Testament? not "Does the New Covenant replace the Old Covenant?"
So right from the start we have a breakdown in communication and a factual error that must be corrected (hopefully by the one making the mistake). I suspect that mistake was made because of following John MacArthur's misguided teaching and not whole scripture. Let's see if we cannot come to an agreement with scripture about this.
The correct answer is that the Old and the New work together as a single revelation of God by God and it is not to be divided up as if one part is any better or worse than another. When Paul wrote to Timothy saying, "ALL scripture is God breathed and useful....." he was referring (predominantly) to the Tanakh, or what we call the Old Testament. That is what the early Christians first learned on. The epistolary and then the gospels were add-ons. They were not formally complied in what we now call "the New Testament" for another three centuries. When the author of Hebrews states the old covenant has passed away, he does so in a very specific context. That verse cannot be read to contradict other scripture, such as what Paul states in 2 Corinthians 3:12-18. It's not that the Mosaic era text (which is not limited to the Law) is no longer valid; the problem is a blindness was upon the Jews. Every single New Testament writer taught the OT, taught from the OT, and applied the OT to their readers repeatedly.
That would make zero sense if the OT had been discarded. That would make zero sense if the old covenant was mutually exclusive to the new covenant and had been discarded.
The simple fact of the new revelation (the New Testament) is that....... the gospel was preached to Abraham and its promises were made to Abraham and his seed, Jesus. The promises of God that we Christians believe or those promises first preached to Abraham! There is a single line from Abraham to Jesus. In fact, if you read through the entire Bible you will discover to truths: 1) God continuously ties His covenant and promises He makes to His people throughout the OT to the covenant He established with Abraham and the patriarchs, and 2) He almost always speaks of the covenant in singular conjugation (the plural "covenants" is found only four times in the entire Bible and two of those mentions have nothing to do with the covenant of Abraham and Jesus).
And John MacArthur screws that up quite often. He is not an excellent teacher.
That is NOT my argument AT ALL.Josheb
Your whole argument is based on the assumption that if the OT was replaced by the NT, then that must imply that the OT is completely irrelevant.
The New Testament..... takes the place of the First Testament.....
Those two posts were edited for the sake of space.HEBREWS
Analysis by Kenneth S. Wuest
Wuest's Word Studies
From the Greek New Testament
I. The New Testament is better than and takes the place of the First Testament because its Founder, the Messiah, is better than... (1:1-8:6)
II. The New Testament is better than and takes the place of the First Testament, (8:7-10:39), because...
1. It was prophesied to be better (8:7-13)
....a. The First Testament faulty in that it did not put away sin (v.7)
....b. New Testament made with Israel and Judah (v.8)
....c. First Testament dealt with Israel as with a minor (v.9)
....d. New Testament through indwelling Spirit brings believers to adult sonship (v.10)
....e. Under the New Testament, all Israel in millennium will be saved (v.11)
....f. Under New Testament, sins put away (v.12)
....g. New Testament displaces First Testament (v.13)
2. It is actual; The First Testament only typical (9:1-15)
3. It is made effective with better blood (9:16-10:39)
What is the "more excellent Name"?
Basically Joshebs point here is that anyone who calls the Old Testament the First Testament is in error.That is NOT my argument AT ALL.
And with the respect due you as a fellow believer and member of the forum..... the opportunity to discuss all of this with me availed itself and was refused. I suspect you might have more to say once I deconstruct this op but I'm no longer interested in trading posts with you because of the repeated refusal to discuss the op and the op-relevant substance of posts 10, 14, 23 and 26. The questions asked were ignored, along with relevant commentary, and what you think is my argument is not my argument. I repeat: When I have time, I will further explain how and why that statement is NOT correct and some of what that means for the outline of the book of Hebrews. But I will not be discussing any of it with you. That time has passed.
Wuest's opening statement is not true or correct.
It's hugely ironic because the author of the book of Hebrews was astutely mindful of the Old Testament, or what Wuest calls the "First Testament." Nearly every sentence in the entire book is couched in some reference to the First Testament. The author of Hebrews shows beyond any doubt the veracity, efficacy, sufficiency, and necessity of the First Testament. It is incomprehensible that anyone would teach,
.
.
But there it is written in plain English for everyone to read, amidst a denial of what is clearly stated and a refusal to discuss it. That's okay. Since I cannot get cogent responses, I will proceed accordingly.
Macarthur didn't use Wuest, or the other way around. I quoted JMac from either my study Bible, or his Romans commentary, I don't remember. Those are two completely separate quotes. I thought the latter would be helpful.Those two posts were edited for the sake of space.
From the beginning of my participation in this thread I have questioned Wuest's opening statement (and subsequently John MacArthur's use of Wuest). I do so under the auspices of James' admonition to teachers to assume greater responsibility knowing they subject themselves to stricter judgment.
Never said any such thing. I did, in fact, use the phrases "Old Testament," and "First Testament" interchangeably.Basically Joshebs point here is that anyone who calls the Old Testament the First Testament is in error.
If that is true than I stand corrected. That mistake, however, does not change the fact Wuest's statement is incorrect, or the fact these matters have been avoided from the outset.Macarthur didn't use Wuest, or the other way around. I quoted JMac from either my study Bible, or his Romans commentary, I don't remember. Those are two completely separate quotes. I thought the latter would be helpful.
I'll return to Wuest's statement (and later MacArthur's) later but, for now, what might an accurate outline of Hebrews look like?Hebrews Outline
HEBREWS
Analysis by Kenneth S. Wuest
Wuest's Word Studies
From the Greek New Testament
I. The New Testament is better than and takes the place of the First Testament because its Founder, the Messiah, is better than... (1:1-8:6)
Does Jesus being the second Adam make the first obsolete?
We are still being born with the nature of the first man.1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
Does Jesus being the second Adam make the first obsolete?
Yes, exactly Eleanor. If you think about it, that actually pictures this discussion very well. OT to NT. First Adam, to Second, or New Adam.We are still being born with the nature of the first man.