• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

God Clearly Defined Who Could Speak For Him

Status
Not open for further replies.
What are you using to validate your claim that they were added?
Compare the two versions in Matthew and Mark. You will see that Matthew's author copied from Mark than there were edits.
And did you mean fallibility instead of infallibility? BTW infallibility refers to how Scripture is authoritative.
It seems like infallible means different things to different people. I tend to follow the GotQuestions summary from What does it mean that the Bible is infallible? What is biblical infallibility? | GotQuestions.org, just accessed:

The word infallible means “incapable of error.” If something is infallible, it is never wrong and thus absolutely trustworthy. Similarly, the word inerrant, also applied to Scripture, means “free from error.” Simply put, the Bible never fails.
 
So are you saying now that you are fully retracting the statements you made in the below quoted posts?
That has always been my position, I'm not judging Paul because he wrote some good stuff. But I cannot find authorization from God to put his words on par with the word of Jesus.
If you are changing your position then I praise God for it.

Is this what you have decided? That you're just confused about why we accept all the Scriptures and would like to understand?
I've never been confused. I know why y'all accept Paul but I go by evidence. Praise God because he has motivated, directed, and guided my investigation.
 
But I cannot find authorization from God to put his words on par with the word of Jesus.

The authority comes from Christ himself...

Jesus appeared to him, and brought him into the fold and gave him an apostleship.

He was confirmed by both Luke, an historian who spoke to everyone to confirm the veracity of all the claims, he even got access to Mary, that's a thing I can tell you would have been very guarded indeed, so Luke is of good reputation.

Peter also confirmed Paul, and placed Paul's writings on par with old testament Scriptures.

We also accept him because all his teachings are true in accordance with the Scriptures and in accordance with all that was foretold.

We then have 3 witnesses who confirmed Paul, and need no further confirmation.

The people of God are people who act upon faith over sight. We know the Scriptures are true because Jesus confirmed them all, both before and after the ressurection.

We have faith in Christ for our salvation, and preach the Gospel to the lost, which is found in all of Scripture, because all of Scripture speaks of Christ.

Does this make sense to you?
 
Compare the two versions in Matthew and Mark. You will see that Matthew's author copied from Mark than there were edits.
There isn't a version in Mark. And Matthew was not copying Mark verbatim. He got some of his information from Mark's gospel. And to simply tell me there was an edit, well you already did that. Which is why I asked you where you got that information from? Will you answer the question this time? And what about Jesus walking on the water being a fabrication or edit?
For example, the easiest proof against the infallibility of the NT as a whole is the words that were added to Jesus' comments in Matthew 16:18-19 and for Peter walking on water.
And did you mean fallibility instead of infallibility?
Are you going to answer that question instead of deflect to telling me what infallible and inerrant mean---which I already know?
 
There isn't a version in Mark.
Mark 8:27-29
And Matthew was not copying Mark verbatim.
Some of what Matthew's author copied from Mark was verbatim and some was not. If you compare side by side you can see that the Matthew version always leaves off eyewitness details that Mark's author included. For example, look at the recruiting of Matthew by Jesus--that was also copied from Mark. Mark's author knew Levi and his family plus there are additional details.
He got some of his information from Mark's gospel. And to simply tell me there was an edit, well you already did that. Which is why I asked you where you got that information from? Will you answer the question this time? And what about Jesus walking on the water being a fabrication or edit?
Matthew 14:22-33
Mark 4:35-41
Compare and you will find the eyewitness details in Mark and left out of Matthew. The section with Peter walking on the water was added later. It is such an important detail that Mark's author would never have left off that detail had hit happened.
Are you going to answer that question instead of deflect to telling me what infallible and inerrant mean---which I already know?
I thought I did answer that. Please repeat.
 
The authority comes from Christ himself...
With a claim like this there must be words of Jesus that back this up.
Jesus appeared to him, and brought him into the fold and gave him an apostleship.
Did Jesus appear or did Paul hear Jesus? You should check out the versions and compare them. There are three accounts of it, but two were provided by Paul. Focus on those accounts.
He was confirmed by both Luke, an historian who spoke to everyone to confirm the veracity of all the claims, he even got access to Mary, that's a thing I can tell you would have been very guarded indeed, so Luke is of good reputation.
You are reciting what you've been told through theology. If you do some research you will find that there is no evidence connecting Luke to that Gospel. There is no evidence trails--only speculation. Plus Luke is not an eyewitness and didn't name his resources. A claim in the Gospel of Luke holds no evidential weight.
Peter also confirmed Paul, and placed Paul's writings on par with old testament Scriptures.
I've been through the 2 Peter discussion several times already. Most scholars reject Peter as the author and my analysis confirmed that. In my opinion there is evidence in the letter pointing to Paul as the author.
 
What other prophecy is there besides Revelation written by John and Jesus--and those don't need a qualifier because through the Law they are the word of God.
Well, let's see. I was talking about the OT, not just the NT. So there's a quite a lot, and while it is (actually, ALL fact is) about Christ, it is not all about the Messiah's birth, which was one qualifier you put to it. That qualifier would discredit John, too, though you give Jesus a different qualifier —at least you got that right.
OT prophecy is all about Jesus. In fact I started another thread about the seventy sevens misinterpretation. The seventy sevens is the complete prophecy about Jesus; the exact timing of his birth, the complete details of his mission, and the introduction to a seven year mission for him:3-1/2 years teaching and performing works, a sacrifice in the middle, then 3-1/2 years for the eyewitnesses to document their testimony. Revelation chapter 12 validates God protecting them during the seven years.
That's off-topic as to who can speak for God. It doesn't help your argument here.
Jesus gave us prophecy in the Gospels. For example, the Olivet Discourse is all about the future the disciples will face. In regards to the books of Kings, or Chronicles, I haven't examined them for meeting the Deuteronomy requirement. But what is the impact if they are not the word of God? They are historical documents.
Yeah, but he didn't give us only prophecy. But he did speak for God.
 
I do not have proof that God gave authority to authors outside of Jesus' eyewitness testimonies and Revelation.

That is one verse in a letter that has authorship that is highly debated. My analysis of that letter found that Peter didn't write it and the likely author is Paul.
Ok, well, I can see there is no point in me continuing with you further. When someone raises the esteem of their own study to a point that not much in Scripture is trustworthy, they have no compass to go by. No foundation to stand on, but their own sayso. The rudder has come loose.

Good luck.
 
That's real funny-- referring to me as the arrogant one. I've presented keys for unlocking prophecy, fraud and corruption and what have you done with that information? I was going to open up and share my math solution to Daniel and Revelation that will blow people away, but when I brought it up, one person commented that God doesn't care about math. Have there been any followup questions or comments to the key I provided that unlocks Daniel 9:24-27? Nope, not one recognized the difference between the key I presented and what the 'smart' people in your world claim. What did y'all do with the fraud I mentioned in Matthew 16:18-19 and Peter walking on water? Nothing!

Why is that? Because y'all are arrogant and don't think anyone can improve your knowledge. Y'all are so arrogant that you can't open your minds to search for the truth. You dig in your heels and recite the same nonsense verses that prove nothing. I don't care what you or anyone here thinks about me, because I was just here trying to find the needle in the haystack--a Christian with good knowledge of the scriptures and an interest to find the truth. Thus far I don't think one exists.

I call myself an expert because I was hired at the Los Alamos National Laboratory as an subject matter expert (SME) at the premier research and development facility in the world. I was so good at my job they had me manage the broken investigations group to fix the process--which I did. My talents were provided by God and he brought me in to take an outside look at what is going on in the Christian faith because I think he is getting tired of the nonsense. Through visions he warned me just how arrogant and stubborn you experts are---kind of like the pharisees. It's sad, that what this expert has found thus far--a lot of arrogant know-it-alls that know nothing and don't care to learn. I keep looking for someone smart with an open mind and the next person in line, @makesends, might have some possibilities but the track record there isn't good.

You should be tickled and honored to have me offer to share my results with you. I almost provided the math solution to Daniel and Revelation and I'm glad I stopped with the key. If y'all can't get find the fraud I pointed out, trace God's law that disproves Paul as being able to speak for God, or spot the very important key for prophecy that I provided, there isn't hope of getting any valuable input there. You have my email and I'm getting tired of the abuse and attacks here, so if you come across somebody who has some interest in learning about what happened to the Church, let me know.
Forget makesends. He has no interest in continuing further with you. Your logic is entirely built on your own trustworthiness, and that, without the common sense self-skepticism that any logician should keep before him. One should never exalt one's own authority over Scripture.

As a Calvinistic believer whose logic compels him to believe entirely in God's providence, I wish you luck.
 
Actually, what you actually claim is far worse than a claim to being a prophet. Let me expound as to why.

In response to @Josheb stating this::


.
You replied with this:



So, by your own words, you are "expert", a man far above brother @Josheb here - since you claim to exceed him in the knowledge and understanding of God (you claim to be an expert as opposed to someone who simply might parse Scripture well sometimes - and are telling him through your demeanor below that it is required of him to bow to your understanding and interpretation.

by your own words below:



When, as an "expert" who is "expert" by his own witness (not the witness of the church through whom the Holy Spirit resides and operates as means) expresses anger and/or frustration with those who are "unable to understand what is written in the law of God" - specifically as defined by you, instead of the Church - we have a person before us who is essentially making messianic claims.



Sure!

In the thread created to welcome you, when asked the following by @DialecticSkeptic :



the following response was given by yourself,:



Then, in response to the probing request again made by @DialecticSkeptic :




The following response was given by yourself:



This a grievous matter that must be addressed with sober judgment, clarity of doctrine, and zeal for the honor of Christ and the purity of His gospel.

Here laid before us is a series of statements wherein a man—by his own testimony—rejects the apostolic witness, stands outside the communion of the Church, and elevates private experience and personal investigation above the revealed Word of God.

The matter is not merely heterodox—it could be considered blasphemy and the spirit of antichrist. Let's examine and expose this claim, not with malice, but with the precision of the Word and the confessional theology handed down by faithful men.


I. CLAIM TO DIVINE AUTHORITY: A Functional Self-Anointed Messiah

This man speaks as one who has received exclusive divine reveation and ascribes to himself a mediatorial role by which others are to believe—not through the Scripture, nor through the teaching of Christ’s Church, but through him and his experiences.

Key Red Flags Indicating a Messianic Claim:

Exclusive Revelation Through NDE and Private Visions:

He states that God showed him hell, and a spirit of a friend, and taught him directly over a five-year “investigation.”

He claims these experiences constitute divine proof, a revelation superior to theology or Scripture.

This is a prophetic and mediatorial claim—he is not merely testifying, he is claiming divine insight to correct the Church.

Rejection of the Apostles and Scripture:

He calls the Apostles and disciples false teachers. This is no minor error—it is to sit in judgment upon Christ Himself, who chose, commissioned, and confirmed the apostles (John 15:16; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:2–8).

He thereby claims a superior authority to Christ’s appointed messengers, which is precisely what false prophets and cult founders have always done (see Galatians 1:8–9).

Condemnation of Theology:

He declares that faith should be built on “evidence, not theology,” implying that God prefers empiricism to divine revelation.

This strikes at the very heart of the Reformation principle of Sola Scriptura—that Scripture is the sole infallible authority for faith and practice.

Theological Diagnosis:

Such a one, even if sincere, walks in the spirit of Korach, who rose up against Moses, saying: “You have gone too far! For all in the congregation are holy...” (Numbers 16:3). But the Lord judged him, because he refused God’s appointed mediator.

He also walks in the way of Diotrephes, who “loves to put himself first and does not acknowledge our authority” (3 John 9).

II. SCRIPTURAL RESPONSE TO CLAIMS OF PRIVATE AUTHORITY


1. Revelation Is Complete in Christ and the Apostolic Witness

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke... by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son” (Hebrews 1:1–2).

“Contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).

God’s final Word has come in Christ. The Apostles bore witness to Him. To claim new revelation that corrects or supersedes theirs is to deny Christ’s Word and to declare the canon incomplete.


2. The Church Is the Pillar and Buttress of Truth

“If I delay, you may know how one ought to behave... in the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).

To stand outside the church and claim to be the sole bearer of divine truth is to defy Christ’s own institution.

3. False Prophets Are Known by Their Fruit and by Their Doctrine

“Many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).

“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house” (2 John 10).

This man’s fruit is the division of the Church and the defamation of Christ’s apostles. His doctrine places personal revelation above Scripture. These are the marks of a deceiver.

III. THE REFORMED CONFESSIONAL WITNESS

The Westminster Confession of Faith speaks clearly:

“The whole counsel of God... is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture; unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men” (WCF 1.6).

And further:

“9: The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly. 2 Peter 1:20–21; Acts 15:15–16 (WCF 1.9).

“The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world, that profess the true religion, together with their children; and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation."
(WCF 25.5, 2).

IV. CONCLUSION AND WARNING

This man lays claim to divine authority while rejecting God’s Word, God’s Church, and God’s appointed messengers. That is not enlightenment—that is rebellion. It is to place oneself above the apostles, above Christ, and functionally as a messianic figure who brings the “true” gospel through personal insight.

Let the Church be warned. As Paul declares:

“Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8)

May we cling not to private visions or personal wisdom, but to Christ, who is the prophet, priest, and king, revealed in the Scriptures, known through faith, and exalted by the Church.
You are exactly right.
 
Mark 8:27-29

Some of what Matthew's author copied from Mark was verbatim and some was not. If you compare side by side you can see that the Matthew version always leaves off eyewitness details that Mark's author included. For example, look at the recruiting of Matthew by Jesus--that was also copied from Mark. Mark's author knew Levi and his family plus there are additional details.

Matthew 14:22-33
Mark 4:35-41
Compare and you will find the eyewitness details in Mark and left out of Matthew. The section with Peter walking on the water was added later. It is such an important detail that Mark's author would never have left off that detail had hit happened.

I thought I did answer that. Please repeat.
I'm done talking to you.
 
Posts not addressed by @JustTheFacts even though he asked for the information given in them.Re: Deut 18:20-22
First of all the apostles were not prophets. They did speak of things to come in the last days, but only according to what either Jesus or the Holy Spirit revealed to them. Those things that do not come to pass until Christ returns. So, you cannot say they will not come to pass. If you have doubts about it, and you should if you doubt the words of the apostles are not from God, then I would get on my knees in repentance.

The passage from Deut that you quote is speaking of authority to speak for God that was given to Moses as the mediator of the Old Covenant, and that there will be another greater than he, who will be mediator of the New Covenant....Jesus. There were many other prophets in the OT and even in the NT, but none were covenant mediators. The gift of prophecy was given to some for the edification of the church. (Eph 4:11-12) There's was Agabus (Acts 11:27-30; Acts 21:10-11) Phillip the evangelist had four daughters who were prophetesses (Acts 21:9) and Silas (Acts 15:32).

The model for prophecy changed with the NT church because of the transformation in the relationship between God and his people. All have the indwelling Holy Spirit, whereas it was exclusive in the OT. And you have restricted prophecy to only one aspect; that of telling the future. Prophecy is hearing from God and repeating his message to others. So in a sense anyone teaching correctly from the Bible and according the what God meant, is doing that. That is what Paul and the other apostles were doing, both from the OT and its revealed fullness by God to them.

To say, as you did, that there is only one prophecy that matters in the OT and that is Messiah, you completely wipe out the importance and value of more that half of God's book---his story of redemption played out in our history, and that is being played out even now. So the passages do not support anything as proof, other than you make things say what you want them to say. And you did not actually use them in any supportive way. Just quoted them and then made the statement that the only prophecy that mattered was Messiah and then to say Paul can't be a prophet because Jesus has already been born, which makes absolutely no sense at all.
Re: his request for scripture where someone besides Paul himself gave Paul the authority to speak for God. He was given Acts 9:10-30 with the direct evidence of authority given by Jesus himself highlighted in red. The response was, it was fuzzy language and when Jesus himself speaking again, he still refused to even acknowledge that it was given.
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.
 
The first account it no better than second-hand information as the author is telling what he has heard happened to Saul; “as HE travelled,” as “HE got close to Damascus,” and a light “shone around HIM.” We don’t know the author or resource for this information. Therefore, unless you believe that the Bible is the infallible and inherent word of God this documentation cannot be used as evidence of Saul’s claimed resurrection appearance.
It is a Christian tenet that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Since you do not believe that, no support given for anything will satisfy you. No scripture that defies your set in stone beliefs against that Christian tenet or your intention here to spread doubt about it, will be accepted. (Which is equal to rejecting his word.) It is no different than a person using the Bible to convince an atheist of anything in the Bible. It is foolishness to them. In your case, in rejecting God's word as "proof" of what you do not like, you simply say the author is suspect. That is the sum total of your defense.

Your less than honorable motives are made abundantly clear, when you begin with giving your own credentials----which are hearsay on the internet as they cannot be verified and anyone can claim anything---as an authoritative investigator. And then everything that follows that is meant to prove that, does the opposite. A bias and intention that is utterly void of any investigation at all, other than to find some passages to twist. When the twisting is brought to light the "investigative" authority claimed, is shown to be of the most amateurish quality as to be laughable if it weren't so sad and embarrassing.

Even so, I, and probably many others, sincerely pray that the Lord Jesus would shine his light upon you. Until then:


GIF
 
That's just not true. Why do you always jump to conclusions and judge?
I hardly jumped to a conclusion. I have been reading your posts for days now. Someone trained in investigative techniques, able to peruse and understand piles and piles of documents, should be able to recognize that it is not possible to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, while at the same time calling into question the authorship and authority of the writers of the NT to speak for God. That it is not possible to believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and at the same time say the NT writers did not have the authority to speak for God. What makes the Bible inerrant is that it IS THE WORD OF GOD. God is the only inerrant being.
It is a Christian tenet that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Since you do not believe that, no support given for anything will satisfy you.
That's just not true. Why do you always jump to conclusions and judge?
Lol. So i offered to send you the rest of the analysis of Paul's encounter with Jesus and how do you settle in inconsistencies in Paul's stories. When Paul tells the story he does not mention an appearance--he heard a voice. Ananias who we know nothing about says Jesus appeared to him and Paul makes the claim in his letters. But they contradict his accounts. What am I to do--reject common sense to blindly listen to what is preached that the Bible is the infallible word without error?
See where the inconsistency is?
A person with a brain wants the truth so I dig for it.
In your investigations did you ever come across this: 2 Tim 3:1-7 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

You are not digging for the truth. You are digging for a way to reject the truth and drag others along with you. Which reminds me of another passage, something Jesus said, about those who do such a thing and a mill stone. Remember that one?
I do not reject any word of God yet you keep accusing me of it. I keep asking for proof that Paul can speak for God and every thing you throw at it doesn't stick.
You reject the word of God as the word of God. If Paul or any other contributor to the NT is not speaking for God, then the Bible is not the word of God. Anyone with a brain should put that 2 and 2 together.
Is this where I laugh, start to throw back attacks at you, or let you keep rambling on? Your opinion of me doesn't matter. My work is what matters and you have yet to counter anything I've written with any evidence to prove me wrong (Daniel 9:24-27, the word of God requirements, Matthew edits to build the story of Peter, etc.).
I am not attacking you. When a wolf tries to sneak into the flock, it is my job, and that of every other Christian, to expose it, according to the word of God. Jude 1:3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.

We at CCAM have extended grace to you, to hear you, and to counter the misunderstandings of Scripture that you have shown. Assuming your sincerity. All our efforts have been met with an ever increasing recognition that you have a definite agenda that you will not move from, and that is to discredit the NT writers while at the same time claiming you believe what they say, but also that many of them were liars. You have brought this down on your own head.
 
Last edited:
...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top