Genealogies

[atpollard]

... at least they [geneologies] would be more genial...

Let's find out if they are more "genial" ...

[Matthew 1:1-17 NKJV]
1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her [who had been the wife] of Uriah. 7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. 8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. 9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. 10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. 11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. 14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. 15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon [are] fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ [are] fourteen generations.

[Luke 3:23-38 NKJV]
23 Now Jesus Himself began [His ministry at] about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) [the] son of Joseph, [the son] of Heli, 24 [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi, [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Janna, [the son] of Joseph, 25 [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Amos, [the son] of Nahum, [the son] of Esli, [the son] of Naggai, 26 [the son] of Maath, [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Semei, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Judah, 27 [the son] of Joannas, [the son] of Rhesa, [the son] of Zerubbabel, [the son] of Shealtiel, [the son] of Neri, 28 [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Addi, [the son] of Cosam, [the son] of Elmodam, [the son] of Er, 29 [the son] of Jose, [the son] of Eliezer, [the son] of Jorim, [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi, 30 [the son] of Simeon, [the son] of Judah, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Jonan, [the son] of Eliakim, 31 [the son] of Melea, [the son] of Menan, [the son] of Mattathah, [the son] of Nathan, [the son] of David, 32 [the son] of Jesse, [the son] of Obed, [the son] of Boaz, [the son] of Salmon, [the son] of Nahshon, 33 [the son] of Amminadab, [the son] of Ram, [the son] of Hezron, [the son] of Perez, [the son] of Judah, 34 [the son] of Jacob, [the son] of Isaac, [the son] of Abraham, [the son] of Terah, [the son] of Nahor, 35 [the son] of Serug, [the son] of Reu, [the son] of Peleg, [the son] of Eber, [the son] of Shelah, 36 [the son] of Cainan, [the son] of Arphaxad, [the son] of Shem, [the son] of Noah, [the son] of Lamech, 37 [the son] of Methuselah, [the son] of Enoch, [the son] of Jared, [the son] of Mahalalel, [the son] of Cainan, 38 [the son] of Enosh, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.

So, the genealogies of Jesus do not match.
Which GOSPEL WRITER got it wrong?

[How's that for promoting "geniality"?]
Arthur
- stirring up trouble since 1962.

 

[Soyeong]

Let's find out if they are more "genial" ...

[Matthew 1:1-17 NKJV]
1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her [who had been the wife] of Uriah. 7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. 8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. 9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. 10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. 11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. 14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. 15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon [are] fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ [are] fourteen generations.

[Luke 3:23-38 NKJV]
23 Now Jesus Himself began [His ministry at] about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) [the] son of Joseph, [the son] of Heli, 24 [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi, [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Janna, [the son] of Joseph, 25 [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Amos, [the son] of Nahum, [the son] of Esli, [the son] of Naggai, 26 [the son] of Maath, [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Semei, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Judah, 27 [the son] of Joannas, [the son] of Rhesa, [the son] of Zerubbabel, [the son] of Shealtiel, [the son] of Neri, 28 [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Addi, [the son] of Cosam, [the son] of Elmodam, [the son] of Er, 29 [the son] of Jose, [the son] of Eliezer, [the son] of Jorim, [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi, 30 [the son] of Simeon, [the son] of Judah, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Jonan, [the son] of Eliakim, 31 [the son] of Melea, [the son] of Menan, [the son] of Mattathah, [the son] of Nathan, [the son] of David, 32 [the son] of Jesse, [the son] of Obed, [the son] of Boaz, [the son] of Salmon, [the son] of Nahshon, 33 [the son] of Amminadab, [the son] of Ram, [the son] of Hezron, [the son] of Perez, [the son] of Judah, 34 [the son] of Jacob, [the son] of Isaac, [the son] of Abraham, [the son] of Terah, [the son] of Nahor, 35 [the son] of Serug, [the son] of Reu, [the son] of Peleg, [the son] of Eber, [the son] of Shelah, 36 [the son] of Cainan, [the son] of Arphaxad, [the son] of Shem, [the son] of Noah, [the son] of Lamech, 37 [the son] of Methuselah, [the son] of Enoch, [the son] of Jared, [the son] of Mahalalel, [the son] of Cainan, 38 [the son] of Enosh, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.

So, the genealogies of Jesus do not match.
Which GOSPEL WRITER got it wrong?

[How's that for promoting "geniality"?]
Arthur
- stirring up trouble since 1962.

Before trying to figure out who got it wrong, you should focused on understanding what the author was trying to communicate with the genealogy. For example, women generally aren't included in a genealogy, so is there motive for the author to bring to out recollection the names of those women in connection with Jesus?

 

[GeneZ]

Let's find out if they are more "genial" ...

[Matthew 1:1-17 NKJV]
1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:
2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3 Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her [who had been the wife] of Uriah. 7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa. 8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. 9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. 10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon, and Amon begot Josiah. 11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon.
12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. 14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. 15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David [are] fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon [are] fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ [are] fourteen generations.

[Luke 3:23-38 NKJV]
23 Now Jesus Himself began [His ministry at] about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) [the] son of Joseph, [the son] of Heli, 24 [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi, [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Janna, [the son] of Joseph, 25 [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Amos, [the son] of Nahum, [the son] of Esli, [the son] of Naggai, 26 [the son] of Maath, [the son] of Mattathiah, [the son] of Semei, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Judah, 27 [the son] of Joannas, [the son] of Rhesa, [the son] of Zerubbabel, [the son] of Shealtiel, [the son] of Neri, 28 [the son] of Melchi, [the son] of Addi, [the son] of Cosam, [the son] of Elmodam, [the son] of Er, 29 [the son] of Jose, [the son] of Eliezer, [the son] of Jorim, [the son] of Matthat, [the son] of Levi, 30 [the son] of Simeon, [the son] of Judah, [the son] of Joseph, [the son] of Jonan, [the son] of Eliakim, 31 [the son] of Melea, [the son] of Menan, [the son] of Mattathah, [the son] of Nathan, [the son] of David, 32 [the son] of Jesse, [the son] of Obed, [the son] of Boaz, [the son] of Salmon, [the son] of Nahshon, 33 [the son] of Amminadab, [the son] of Ram, [the son] of Hezron, [the son] of Perez, [the son] of Judah, 34 [the son] of Jacob, [the son] of Isaac, [the son] of Abraham, [the son] of Terah, [the son] of Nahor, 35 [the son] of Serug, [the son] of Reu, [the son] of Peleg, [the son] of Eber, [the son] of Shelah, 36 [the son] of Cainan, [the son] of Arphaxad, [the son] of Shem, [the son] of Noah, [the son] of Lamech, 37 [the son] of Methuselah, [the son] of Enoch, [the son] of Jared, [the son] of Mahalalel, [the son] of Cainan, 38 [the son] of Enosh, [the son] of Seth, [the son] of Adam, [the son] of God.

So, the genealogies of Jesus do not match.
Which GOSPEL WRITER got it wrong?

[How's that for promoting "geniality"?]
Arthur - causing trouble since 1962.

One is his mother Mary to prove Jesus was from the Line of David as promised.

The other?

Is of Joseph.

Though his legal father.. Done to prove he could never have been Jesus's biological father
because of the Jeconiah curse.

Jeremiah (22:28–30) cursed Jeconiah that none of his descendants would ever sit on the throne of Israel:

This is what the LORD says: 'Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime,
for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.

There is reason for everything.... But, not everyone is willing to reason.

grace and peace ................

 

[atpollard]

16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ.

23 Now Jesus Himself began [His ministry at] about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) [the] son of Joseph, [the son] of Heli,

It is all well and good to discuss Author's intent and to posit one genealogy belongs to Mary rather than Joseph ... but I prefer to start with what the words actually say. What is the name of Joseph's father? Not a tricky question.

Once we acknowledge that one says "Jacob" and the other says "Heli", then we can discuss whether this is significant or not.
[FYI: I think 'not'.]

Before trying to figure out who got it wrong, you should focused on understanding what the author was trying to communicate with the genealogy.

One is his mother Mary to prove Jesus was from the Line of David as promised.

Saying "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" as you attempt to distract with smoke and mirrors [like the Wizard of Oz] is a bad hermeneutical place to start.

• Will the intent of including women change the discrepancy in the name of Joseph's father?
• Why does Mary's alleged genealogy appear to include the name of her husband's father?

 

[Soyeong]

It is all well and good to discuss Author's intent and to posit one genealogy belongs to Mary rather than Joseph ... but I prefer to start with what the words actually say. What is the name of Joseph's father? Not a tricky question.

Once we acknowledge that one says "Jacob" and the other says "Heli", then we can discuss whether this is significant or not.
[FYI: I think 'not'.]




Saying "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" as you attempt to distract with smoke and mirrors [like the Wizard of Oz] is a bad hermeneutical place to start.

• Will the intent of including women change the discrepancy in the name of Joseph's father?
• Why does Mary's alleged genealogy appear to include the name of her husband's father?

It helps to try accept the genealogies for what they are and for what the author was intending to communicate by them rather than getting upset that they don't communicate what you want them to.

 

[GeneZ]

It is all well and good to discuss Author's intent and to posit one genealogy belongs to Mary rather than Joseph ... but I prefer to start with what the words actually say. What is the name of Joseph's father? Not a tricky question.

If you were adopted?
And, someone asked who your father is?
Your father in that case would be your legal, but not biological father,

There was a reason to include the genealogy of Joseph. Any biblical Jew reading it would have caught on and known why.
For Jesus could not have been the biological son of whomever that genealogy was, unless Jesus was not the King of the Jews!
It was called the "Coniah curse."

Joseph's was not not the biological father of Jesus.
So why present his genealogy?
There was a reason for including his lineage that requires one understand the history of that line.
It was to prove that Jesus had no human father.

 

[Arial]

A possible explanation of two different men being named as Joseph's father.

There was an OT law of levirate marriage. (Deut 25:5-6)" If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, wht wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's bothe to her. And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his dead brother, that his name may bot be blotted out of Israel." The two "fathers" Heli and Jacob could have been brothers or half-brothers. One died and the other married his widow producing Joseph and his offspring.

 

[atpollard]

It helps to try accept the genealogies for what they are and for what the author was intending to communicate by them rather than getting upset that they don't communicate what you want them to.

Does verbal plenary inspiration matter?

[I am attempting to follow your cryptic points ... (you have a propensity to beat around the bush) ... by establishing brackets around what you MIGHT mean.]

I am not "upset" about anything. I simply raised an observation that the respondents appear to be tap dancing around rather than actually addressing. So I called y'all on it.

"What is the name of Joseph's father?" was the question that I asked. I cannot follow how your response answers that question.
So, the genealogies of Jesus do not match. Which GOSPEL WRITER got it wrong? was the original question. I cannot follow how either of your responses answers that question.
Third time is the charm: "Why do two genealogies of the same person differ in as basic a detail as the name of Joseph's father?"

 

[atpollard]

There is reason for everything.... But, not everyone is willing to reason.

grace and peace ................

If you were adopted?
And, someone asked who your father is?
Your father in that case would be your legal, but not biological father,

There was a reason to include the genealogy of Joseph. Any biblical Jew reading it would have caught on and known why.
For Jesus could not have been the biological son of whomever that genealogy was, unless Jesus was not the King of the Jews!
It was called the "Coniah curse."

Joseph's was not not the biological father of Jesus.
So why present his genealogy?
There was a reason for including his lineage that requires one understand the history of that line.
It was to prove that Jesus had no human father.

Thank you for the "grace and peace".

I have to admit that the claim "There is a reason for everything" rings a bit hollow to my ear when I point out that two genealogies for Joseph (the husband of Mary and adopted father of Jesus) do not agree about the name of Joseph's father (a fairly basic detail) and you are striving to discuss anything and everything except that one simple fact. [shrug]

c'est la vie.

It would seem the lack of "willingness to reason" may be contagious.

Shalom shalom.

 

[GeneZ]

Thank you for the "grace and peace".

I have to admit that the claim "There is a reason for everything" rings a bit hollow to my ear when I point out that two genealogies for Joseph (the husband of Mary and adopted father of Jesus) do not agree about the name of Joseph's father (a fairly basic detail) and you are striving to discuss anything and everything except that one simple fact. [shrug]

c'est la vie.

It would seem the lack of "willingness to reason" may be contagious.

Shalom shalom.

Not to mention... Joseph was also a descendant of David. Not just Mary.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I prefer to start with what the words actually say. What is the name of Joseph's father? Not a tricky question.

Once we acknowledge that one says "Jacob" and the other says "Heli", then we can discuss whether this is significant or not.
[FYI: I think 'not'.]

You're right - they don't match.

While we're at it, 2 of the genealogies in Genesis - one for Cain's descendants, and one for Seth's - they DO match. What are the chances that both guys descendants had basically the same names for 7 consecutive generations? Huh.

I say that to say this - for the most part the Bible doesn't use genealogies the way we think of them today. They are more like a literary genre in Hebrew than a re-gurgitation of history.

-Jarrod

 

[atpollard]

Not to mention... Joseph was also a descendant of David. Not just Mary.

Do you have a translation that suggests the Genealogy (either one) is of Mary and not Joseph?
I haven't noticed one in the few translations that I read (although I have not conducted an exhaustive search). The NASB quited in the OP both suggest they are genealogies of Joseph.

 

[atpollard]

You're right - they don't match.

While we're at it, 2 of the genealogies in Genesis - one for Cain's descendants, and one for Seth's - they DO match. What are the chances that both guys descendants had basically the same names for 7 consecutive generations? Huh.

I say that to say this - for the most part the Bible doesn't use genealogies the way we think of them today. They are more like a literary genre in Hebrew than a re-gurgitation of history.

-Jarrod

So what is the point?
"Here is a list of made up names signifying ..." what?

Tribes are "drop-dead" important (Levites, Aaron's Priesthood, Judah & Benjamin.)
Why get something that can probably be known correctly (like Joseph's Father) wrong?

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

So what is the point?
"Here is a list of made up names signifying ..." what?

Depends which one you're talking about.

Cain's descendants is a list showing that they went from living as farmers in cities (Enoch) to becoming herders in the wilderness (Jabal, Jubal), in fulfillment of the curse on Cain.

Tribes are "drop-dead" important (Levites, Aaron's Priesthood, Judah & Benjamin.)
Why get something that can probably be known correctly (like Joseph's Father) wrong?

As nearly as I can tell, Luke's list is probably just factual... leave it to a Greek.

Matthew's is more concerned with counting the number of generations between significant figures. It probably links into one of the prophesies of weeks/generations that were popular at that time.

-Jarrod

 

[GeneZ]

Do you have a translation that suggests the Genealogy (either one) is of Mary and not Joseph?
I haven't noticed one in the few translations that I read (although I have not conducted an exhaustive search). The NASB quited in the OP both suggest they are genealogies of Joseph.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Philippians 1:9​

Matthew was Jewish. For that reason his genealogy would concern itself with beginning with Abraham.

Luke was a Gentile. That is why we see his genealogy from Adam. Luke's was the human race genealogy.

Matthew was written earlier than Luke.

There have been problem passages I faced in the past that left me feeling vulnerable and afraid to be challenged.
I prayed about it. Handed it up to he Lord... and then learned to faith rest.

Lo and behold... Maybe a year later? While relaxed and no longer seeking for any answer.
The answer was dropped in my lap causing me to realize I had already forgotten about the question.

What I learned? God does the work.

He wants us involved in seeing Him work. So we have questions needed in prayer.
Handing it over to God in prayer. .. Faith resting. And, then go about our life.

At the right time pieces of the puzzle will land in your lap as God chooses.