Does Your Church Require An Oath to Be Elders & Deacons?

[makesends]

If we were to actually address what making an oath does.. is to bind one's soul to finishing it Numbers 30:2 whereby God cannot help us as it is a work of our hands per Ecclesiastes 5:4-7.... I can see His warning in Matthew 5:36 of Matthew 5:33-37 as to why we should not be making any oaths or promises that are His to keep since it is not we who live but Christ in us;

Galatians 2:15-3:4 KJV

I hope in the Lord that you can see that truth in His words that goes beyond what educated scholars of the day are applying His words to only mean.

No. An oath does not mean God cannot help us to carry it out. In fact, the words sometimes attached to an oath —"so help me God"— are entirely appropriate.

Is not repentance an oath? It is not conditional, certainly. So, help me God.

Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
That is God's word on the matter of making an oath or a vow or a promise or a commitment or any man made yoke of bondage.

If God could help the believer that did those things, why issue this warning at all?

Huh??? So that he not break his word!!! I should think that was obvious!

You must be asking something I didn't pick up on...

 

[ChristB4us]

No. An oath does not mean God cannot help us to carry it out. In fact, the words sometimes attached to an oath —"so help me God"— are entirely appropriate.

Then why the warning from God in Ecclesiastes 5:4-7?

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. 6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? 7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.

Is not repentance an oath? It is not conditional, certainly. So, help me God.

You will have to explain that, brother. Since our believing in Him is a manifested work of God then where is repentance an oath a believer makes?

Huh??? So that he not break his word!!! I should think that was obvious!
You must be asking something I didn't pick up on...

Reread the warning in this post provided with the scripture in verse 6 and tell me how you apply that to mean. Seems like there is a consequence to breaking his word. If God can help him, then why would there be any consequence?

Are you familiar with His words of "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? And " what is impossible with man, is possible with God"?

An oath is the believer telling God and men what he will do and he will finish that oath but if he is doing His work, then he is not trusting Him to do it & finish His work in him for why he is resorting to his own power under the law in doing it by keeping that oath and he will be judged by that oath.

I had asked Jesus to forgive me and to set me free from my commitment to make Him Lord of my life and the commitment to follow Him as well as the covenant with my mouth not to cuss and all other man made bondages that I am supposed to be trusting Him for & thereby I am resting in Him and His New Covenant to me that He will do it and finish His work in me to His glory for why I will praise Him & cast my crown at His feet.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Is not repentance an oath? It is not conditional, certainly. So, help me God.

You will have to explain that, brother. Since our believing in Him is a manifested work of God then where is repentance an oath a believer makes?

Repentance is turning your back on sin. It is saying, "I am not doing that again". God's work in us does not deny that we do all we can to see it done. In my opinion, all our being is to be involved in the effort, though it truly is God doing it in us.

I don't see the problem here that you see.

Maybe it would help to add that, at least it should be, that our word is our oath. Not just a figure of speech.

 

[makesends]

Reread the warning in this post provided with the scripture in verse 6 and tell me how you apply that to mean. Seems like there is a consequence to breaking his word. If God can help him, then why would there be any consequence?

Are you familiar with His words of "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak? And " what is impossible with man, is possible with God"?

An oath is the believer telling God and men what he will do and he will finish that oath but if he is doing His work, then he is not trusting Him to do it & finish His work in him for why he is resorting to his own power under the law in doing it by keeping that oath and he will be judged by that oath.

I had asked Jesus to forgive me and to set me free from my commitment to make Him Lord of my life and the commitment to follow Him as well as the covenant with my mouth not to cuss and all other man made bondages that I am supposed to be trusting Him for & thereby I am resting in Him and His New Covenant to me that He will do it and finish His work in me to His glory for why I will praise Him & cast my crown at His feet.

Something's not clicking here. I'm not following what you mean.

Just for future reference, I've been taught and read the Bible my whole 67 years. There's not much in there I'm not familiar with. (There's an awful lot I don't understand and can only conjecture on, and some on which I can't even do that.)

 

[ChristB4us]

makesends said:
Is not repentance an oath? It is not conditional, certainly. So, help me God.

Repentance is turning your back on sin. It is saying, "I am not doing that again". God's work in us does not deny that we do all we can to see it done. In my opinion, all our being is to be involved in the effort, though it truly is God doing it in us.

I don't see the problem here that you see.

Maybe it would help to add that, at least it should be, that our word is our oath. Not just a figure of speech.

When it comes to my sin, I am asking for forgiveness and His help not to do it again.

Indeed, that has been taught to us to pray to the Father for as we look to God to turn us away from our iniquities rather than looking to ourselves by our will power or religious flesh like keeping an oath in doing the best we can to turn from sin.

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 3:Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Galatians 3:1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.... 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Can you apply Galatians 5:1 to your walk with the Lord if you are under that oath? So ask him to set you free & trust Jesus Christ to help you to follow Him instead. That is why it is simply written that the just shall live by faith.

 

[ChristB4us]

Something's not clicking here. I'm not following what you mean.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. 6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? 7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.

Your oath is your work.

His New Covenant is His work for why He is saying do not make any oath that are His to keep & finish, because you can't do it by your oath.

Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Just for future reference, I've been taught and read the Bible my whole 67 years. There's not much in there I'm not familiar with. (There's an awful lot I don't understand and can only conjecture on, and some on which I can't even do that.)

Wisdom comes from the Lord and so all I can ask you to do is pray to see what it is that is an offense to Him by a believer's oath and what it really means to live by faith in Him.

A believer's oath is telling God, I will do it, but a believer's faith is telling Jesus Christ I trust you to do it and so please help me to follow you.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The Lord was trying to tell me something when I was on the evangelism team but I was unable to receive the truth because I was not discerning that what the church had taught me was unbiblical. So I am sending a prayer up for you because I know I cannot help you see the truth in His words.

 

[makesends]

Indeed, that has been taught to us to pray to the Father for as we look to God to turn us away from our iniquities rather than looking to ourselves by our will power or religious flesh like keeping an oath in doing the best we can to turn from sin.

With this I agree completely. I meant no such implication, that we should do our oaths in and of ourselves. This is why I added, "So help me, God"!

 

[makesends]

Your oath is your work.

I don't see the separation as necessary. As "in him", nothing about me is just me, (except my disobedience).

You have only shown a line of thinking that concludes that an oath is an offense to him. Scripture does not teach that. What it does say is to fulfill your oaths.

 

[ChristB4us]

With this I agree completely. I meant no such implication, that we should do our oaths in and of ourselves. This is why I added, "So help me, God"!

But God will help you because you are trusting Him to do it per His New Covenant to you as that is to His glory by your faith in Him to do it.

God will not help you keep your oath for that is your oath and it is to your glory if you can keep it.

If Jesus Christ tells you that He will help you to follow Him and all He asks from you is to believe Him, but instead, you turn around and say, no Lord. I will do it. I will make a commitment to follow You. The Lord will wait until you find out that you cannot keep it. Then you are to ask Him for forgiveness and set you free from that oath to rest in Him, believing Him this time that He will do it.

Trust is the basis for all relationships and we cannot live this reconciled relationship with God except through trusting Jesus Christ for all things.

 

[makesends]

God will not help you keep your oath for that is your oath and it is to your glory if you can keep it.

You are presenting "oath" only as an an intended absolute, presented in self-determinism. For some people, it is, no doubt. Some even declare an oath that is meant against God. But that isn't the way it always is.

FWIW, I agree with you in my distaste for the notion that we have our part and God his, as if we can do anything valid apart from him.

 

[ChristB4us]

You are presenting "oath" only as an an intended absolute, presented in self-determinism.

That is what the scriptures says.

Numbers 30:2 If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

For some people, it is, no doubt.

It doesn't matter if they do not see it as self detemination. In His words, God says they have to do ALL that proceed out of their mouths because that is their oath and the work of their hands.

To make matters worse, God warns about the consequence for making any oath & even saying it was a mistake on his part to the angel is not going to wash.

Ecclesiastes 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay. 6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands? 7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.

Some even declare an oath that is meant against God. But that isn't the way it always is.

Can't recall any right now. You have an example?

FWIW, I agree with you in my distaste for the notion that we have our part and God his, as if we can do anything valid apart from him.

The point is under the Old Covenant, man had their chance under the law to make themselves good and to do good to obtain salvation by but failed and so now the New Covenant is God's turn and He said He will do it, and all that is asked of you is to believe Him; not just for salvation as your Saviour, but as your Good Shepherd & Friend to help you to follow Him and all He asks from you is to believe Him.

There are many believers today that resort to their own power under the law to obtain the assurance of salvation by making a commitment to follow Christ and keeping it to gain that assurance of salvation by which is the knowledge of sin and thus defats the purpose for making such a commitment. Some quit, saying it is too hard because that is what a believer's commitment means in the eyes of the religious world because if the man keeps it, it goes to his credit & his glory for keeping it and not to God.

To simply live by faith in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him seems foolish to the religious people and weak, but He is the power for living the Christian life. That is why many are actually falling away from the faith in Jesus Christ by trying to follow Him by an oath.

2 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
When you recognize that Numbers 30:2 says when a man vows, he is making a man made bondage, and that is not standing fast in the liberty which Christ has set us free, you can ask Jesus for forgiveness and He will set you free from all man made yokes of bondages to rest in Him for following Him just as you rest in Him that you are saved by having believed in Him.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage..... 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Otherwise how can you say you had applied Galatians 5:1 to your walk with Christ if you are bonded by an oath?