Does Hell Mean the Absence of God?

[Arial]

R.C. Sproul from a little book titled "The Truth of the Cross".

"It is common to say that hell is the absence of God."​

"We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly life, and they certainly don't want him near when they are in hell. The worst thing about hell is the presence of God."​

​

Scripture clearly teaches that God is omnipresent and is present in hell (Ps 139:8B).

Do you agree with Sproul that God is present in hell?
If yes, in what way?
If no, why not?

 

[makesends]

R.C. Sproul from a little book titled "The Truth of the Cross".

"It is common to say that hell is the absence of God."​

"We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly life, and they certainly don't want him near when they are in hell. The worst thing about hell is the presence of God."​

​

Scripture clearly teaches that God is omnipresent and is present in hell (Ps 139:8B).

Do you agree with Sproul that God is present in hell?
If yes, in what way?
If no, why not?

While I tend to agree with Sproul about this—it does ring true concerning the mode of torment—proper hermeneutic doesn't take things written in poetry (Psalms) the same way as in, for example, the epistles. David is exulting in praise to God for his inescapable presence. He isn't "teaching" as such that God is (or is not) in Hell in the same way as God is everywhere. Now that doesn't mean that we can't use the reference, but that we can't attribute the statement that God is in Hell, too, with the same weight [of doctrine] as other places.

Do you know of other references to the same effect? Or references to the specific effect that those in hell are indeed tormented through his inescapable presence?

 

[JesusFan]

While I tend to agree with Sproul about this—it does ring true concerning the mode of torment—proper hermeneutic doesn't take things written in poetry (Psalms) the same way as in, for example, the epistles. David is exulting in praise to God for his inescapable presence. He isn't "teaching" as such that God is (or is not) in Hell in the same way as God is everywhere. Now that doesn't mean that we can't use the reference, but that we can't attribute the statement that God is in Hell, too, with the same weight [of doctrine] as other places.

Do you know of other references to the same effect? Or references to the specific effect that those in hell are indeed tormented through his inescapable presence?

God would have to be everywhere, but the real question would be can those who Hell sense be aware of His presense?

 

[Arial]

God would have to be everywhere, but the real question would be can those who Hell sense be aware of His presense?

That depends on what you mean by his presence I suppose. It certainly would not be in the way that we speak of his presence as a good thing.

Here are Sproul's words:​

"When we use the imagery of the Old Testament in an attempt to understand the forsakenness of the lost, we are not speaking of the idea of the departure of God or the absence of God in the sense that he ceases to be omnipresent. Rather, it's a way of describing the withdrawal of God in terms of his redemptive blessing. It is the absence of the light of his countenance. It is the presence of the frown of his countenance. It is the absence of the blessedness of his unveiled glory that is a delight to the souls of those who love him, but it is the presence of the darkness of judgement, in his exercise of wrath, and that's what everyone would like to escape."​

​

I would add, would it also be the complete absence of his general mercy, provision, and the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that are in our fallen world today? That is a question up for discussion as I don't know.

Is the above impossible because would that remove "mercy" say, from his attributes or violate the simplicity of his nature?

 

[Arial]

David is exulting in praise to God for his inescapable presence. He isn't "teaching" as such that God is (or is not) in Hell in the same way as God is everywhere.

I agree David is or is not "teaching that God is in Hell in the same way as God is everywhere. But I do believe he is exclaiming it as literal. There is no way of escaping God.

In that same way to say fallen and unregenerate man is separated from God is not wholly accurate. No one is separated from God or out from under his law. It is more accurate that the familiar relationship is severed.

Do you know of other references to the same effect? Or references to the specific effect that those in hell are indeed tormented through his inescapable presence?

Chapter and verse don't come to mind and it is really a full biblical doctrine of God that the issue rests on, not specific verses. The question also introduces a related but different focus---that of eternal torment. But if his presence is like that as described in the blessing and curse of the covenant Law it would be the opposite of the command God gave the OT priests to speak over the people.

Numbers 6: 24-26
The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up his countanance upon you,
And give you peace.

That is the blessing. The curse takes all those things away. Jesus became a curse for us who believe.

Those in Hell are living the curse and that is (probably and I would imagine) when they realize all that God had been doing for them while they were alive and that they denied was his doing with every breath they took. They gave themselves the glory instead. So, God's presence torments them but it is not God tormenting them.

 

[makesends]

Here are Sproul's words:"When we use the imagery of the Old Testament in an attempt to understand the forsakenness of the lost, we are not speaking of the idea of the departure of God or the absence of God in the sense that he ceases to be omnipresent. Rather, it's a way of describing the withdrawal of God in terms of his redemptive blessing. It is the absence of the light of his countenance. It is the presence of the frown of his countenance. It is the absence of the blessedness of his unveiled glory that is a delight to the souls of those who love him, but it is the presence of the darkness of judgement, in his exercise of wrath, and that's what everyone would like to escape."

That rings true to me in application to old King Saul's experience, before the witch of Endor. It was not that God had withdrawn—i.e that God had ceased to exist immanently in some circumstances, but had withdrawn from Saul's access to him.

 

[Josheb]

Good morning, everyone,

R.C. Sproul from a little book titled "The Truth of the Cross".

"It is common to say that hell is the absence of God."
"We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly life, and they certainly don't want him near when they are in hell. The worst thing about hell is the presence of God."

Scripture clearly teaches that God is omnipresent and is present in hell (Ps 139:8B).

Amen

Do you agree with Sproul that God is present in hell?

Yep. I would so far as to say the wrath of God is "hell."

If yes, in what way?

God's wrath is torturous. This is not to say God acting in a manner akin to the "Saw" movies but simply being exposed to both the truth of God's righteous nature without filter and being exposed to the reality of one's own sinfulness unabated is agonizing. I believe God holds sin and its effects in moderated abeyance lest it consume creation. I believe pending exposure to the enormity of sin in the world is why Jesus experienced hematidrosis in Gethsemane. He sweat blood and it wasn't even his sin.

If no, why not?

It's definitely a yes, but I do believe some correct understanding of "hell" is in order because (as y'all know from prior posts) the word "hell" and "hades" are used in our Greek manuscripts, but Jesus probably never used the word and Jesus, nor the New Testament writers, were ever implying pagan mythologies were real or legitimate. There are no lesser gods. Jesus was not saying a person dies and goes to live underground with some guy named Hades, Pluto, Mot, Anubis or a gals named Hel or Morrigan. In the pagan mythologies a person was physically dead but otherwise still conscious and active. They simply lived in the underworld.

That is NOT what Jesus taught.

In the New Testament a person physically dies, is raised from the grave and then stands before God in judgement. Everyone not saved by grace through faith in the Resurrected Son experiences the wrath of God and then everyone experiencing that wrath is tossed into some sort of fire (whether a real fire, some form of fire that burns spirits, or a complete figure of speech indicative of something as destructive of fire) that is so spiritually lethal even hell and death is destroyed. God's wrath is "destroyed" by God such that there is neither wrath nor need of wrath. Those not facing wrath enjoy incorruptible and immortal life in an entirely new creation .

What is definitely not happening is the creation of some kind of place or space within creation, nor an eternally not-created place/space where God does not or cannot "go," because God created everything and there is no place He is not. The wrath of God is pure, unadulterated, righteous wrath. There are no words to accurately describe it. It is best avoided .

 

[Arial]

God's wrath is torturous. This is not to say God acting in a manner akin to the "Saw" movies but simply being exposed to both the truth of God's righteous nature without filter and being exposed to the reality of one's own sinfulness unabated is agonizing.

There is also a prominent misconception of "wrath" in speaking of God's wrath, or when the Scriptures do so. We interpret it consciously or subconsciously in a horizontal way. As something vicious and mean and uncontrolled vindictive anger over and above justice. The wrath of God poured out is a righteous victory for those he loves, primarily for Christ who faced that wrath on the cross. And how was that wrath expressed beyond the physical torture and shame at the hands of wicked men. The crux of the wrath was "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The light of the Father's countenance went out. The Father turned his back to the Son. And when he cried out, "It is finished and commended his spirit to God's hands, according to Sproul anyway and I tend to agree, God turned his face to again shine on Jesus.

We cannot begin to imagine what that is like, and for all those in Christ we will never have to find out. But that would indeed be hell. There is nothing worse. It is the opposite of Paul's expression in Romans 8: 18 "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us."

The sufferings of this present age are nothing compared to what awaits those who reject the Savior.

. I believe God holds sin and its effects in moderated abeyance lest it consume creation. I believe pending exposure to the enormity of sin in the world is why Jesus experienced hematidrosis in Gethsemane. He sweat blood and it wasn't even his sin.

He absolutely does. And he has mercy on all in this life (but not saving mercy). He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, the wicked and the righteous. Which of course is an expression of "all good gifts come down from above." He provides food and shelter and jobs, restrains the utter evil we could and would be, he gives life. It is not just the saved that live and move and have their being in him. It is everyone. And I think too that this is at least one of the things the unregenerate will finally know and that they denied all the days of their life. Which of course will bring with it the recognition of just how grevious and sinful were there sins---especially that one.

 

[John Bauer]

I am working on a response, but was unable to complete it this morning before heading off for Easter celebrations, which will take up the entire day. I will finish it this evening and publish it.

 

[Josheb]

There is also a prominent misconception of "wrath" in speaking of God's wrath, or when the Scriptures do so. We interpret it consciously or subconsciously in a horizontal way. As something vicious and mean and uncontrolled vindictive anger over and above justice. The wrath of God poured out is a righteous victory for those he loves, primarily for Christ who faced that wrath on the cross. And how was that wrath expressed beyond the physical torture and shame at the hands of wicked men. The crux of the wrath was "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The light of the Father's countenance went out. The Father turned his back to the Son. And when he cried out, "It is finished and commended his spirit to God's hands, according to Sproul anyway and I tend to agree, God turned his face to again shine on Jesus.

We cannot begin to imagine what that is like, and for all those in Christ we will never have to find out. But that would indeed be hell. There is nothing worse. It is the opposite of Paul's expression in Romans 8: 18 "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us."

The sufferings of this present age are nothing compared to what awaits those who reject the Savior.

He absolutely does. And he has mercy on all in this life (but not saving mercy). He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust, the wicked and the righteous. Which of course is an expression of "all good gifts come down from above." He provides food and shelter and jobs, restrains the utter evil we could and would be, he gives life. It is not just the saved that live and move and have their being in him. It is everyone. And I think too that this is at least one of the things the unregenerate will finally know and that they denied all the days of their life. Which of course will bring with it the recognition of just how grevious and sinful were there sins---especially that one.

Yep.

That "horizontal" comment is particularly astute. I think the anthropomorphic perversion occurs because sinful man does not adequately understand shame and cannot face it, comprehend it, examine it true nature and effect from within the sinful state.

It is hard to see the picture from inside the frame.​

Therefore, words cannot adequately describe it. Any and all explanation can attain only an intellect-only level of understanding and never a wholly experiential one. Putting aside cognitive and emotional concerns, the sudden realization of sin's despotic, tyrannical enslavement of the will is subordinated only by the despotic tyranny of divine wrath. No creature can out-will the Creator. At the end there are no more choices to be had.

The sinner is dead.​

Physically dead, dead in sin, and dead to God because life has been rejected. God will be right there showing the sinner his/her rejection so there can be no excuse, and He will be right there observing the consequences of death with witnesses. Hell is not about geography and definitely not about some geography in which God cannot be.

 

[Arial]

Hell is not about geography and definitely not about some geography in which God cannot be.

Before I was a Christian I did not believe in hell or heaven. I believed God was real but not the devil. After union with Christ, I believed all those things existed. And I suppose I assumed that heaven and hell had specific locations in an unformed sense (unformed in my mind). They may or may not be. I don't know. We can't see them. And it is beyond our limitations to fathom. It is best left alone I guess as anything would be a guess. No one has been to either place that walks the earth today. We do need to be careful to not adapt a world view that they are a state of mind.

We might as well try and answer the question, "How can God be someplace and everyplace both at the same time?"

 

[John Bauer]

Do you agree with Sproul that God is present in hell?

If no, why not?

Normally, I love the late and beloved R. C. Sproul. Nearly everything that I believe, from soteriology to eschatology, has been shaped or in some way influenced by him. In fact, he was instrumental in pulling me out of Particular Baptist theology into fully Reformed covenant theology. But on this point I think he is mistaken, or at least imprecise.

The problem is that Sproul’s formulation presupposes the traditional doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment, so in this statement he is blurring the distinction between the intermediate state and final state. Did anyone else notice that he is importing into the present intermediate state features belonging properly to final punishment?

For example, he says the wicked “are” in hell, using the present tense for hell as divine judgment and punitive wrath. But Scripture nowhere says that the wicked are presently experiencing final hell (γέεννα, géenna or gehenna). If they are anywhere, it is the intermediate state (ᾅδης, hadēs), corresponding broadly to Sheol (שְׁאוֹל, šeʾôl) in the Old Testament, the realm of the dead, which the LXX translates as hadēs.

That is where Psalm 139:8 comes in. Although the realm of the dead is not outside God’s sovereign presence or jurisdiction (e.g., Job 26:6), that’s not the same thing as saying the dead either enjoy or despise communion with him there. The Old Testament commonly portrays the realm of the dead in terms of darkness, silence, and deprivation, a “land of oblivion” cut off from the embodied praise and historical covenant life of the land of the living (Ps. 88:10-12; Job 14:21; Eccl 9:5, 10). Yet the OT does not leave God’s people there without hope. Precisely because šeʾôl / hadēs is not beyond his reach, Scripture begins to voice the hope that God will redeem his people from its power (Ps. 49:15; Hos. 13:14), a hope that comes to fuller expression in the NT doctrine of resurrection.

So I cannot follow Sproul here. His statement imports into the present intermediate state features that belong properly to the final state. No matter how one resolves all the details, Scripture does not teach that the wicked are presently experiencing final hell.

 

[fastfredy0]

R.C. Sproul from a little book titled "The Truth of the Cross".

"It is common to say that hell is the absence of God.""We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly life, and they certainly don't want him near when they are in hell. The worst thing about hell is the presence of God."Scripture clearly teaches that God is omnipresent and is present in hell (Ps 139:8B).

Do you agree with Sproul that God is present in hell?
If yes, in what way?
If no, why not?

Yes, I strongly believe God is in hell given the attribute of God which is He is omnipresent. I would think He is in hell in the same way He is in heaven save in Hell He is not there for the benefit of the creatures that inhabit Hell.

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Those people in Hell classify as "a thing"
Romans 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen. Those people in Hell classify as "a thing"
1 Chronicles 29:14 "Who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee". Those people in Hell classify as "a thing"
RE:"We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly life, and they certainly don't want him near when they are in hell.
I don't think that this may be true. Seems, though a parable and thus can be only taken so far, the guy in hell talking to Lazarus desperately wanted Lazarus to convince his living brother's on earth to turn to God.
This implies a desire to God, least wise in regard to desiring God for others.
Aside: But, what do I know?

 

[makesends]

Yep. I would so far as to say the wrath of God is "hell."

That's actually pretty apt.

As I consider God's justice, (and wrath, though less specifically), it is altogether exacting, thorough, precise. It is this that makes it torment, because whatever it is that is suffered in 'hell' is according to the specific crime(s) each individual committed against God. Their sins mock them, so to speak. They brought this on themselves.

And they are without excuse.

 

[Josheb]

We do need to be careful to not adapt a world view that they are a state of mind.

I completely agree. Post 10 wasn't intended to make hell exclusively psychological in nature. I will say, however, most folks never face the most frightening physical experiences existent on this side of the grave, especially in well-ordered western societies. Most people do not go into combat. Most people do not suffer vicarious destruction due to combat. Most are not raped, maimed in accidents, tortured by psychopaths. However, there is a very good chance that anyone who has stayed in counseling has experienced the moment when s/he realized s/he is not the person they thought they were. It can be incredibly emasculating (or whatever the non-binary version of that is ). Some never return to counseling despite the fact that self-realization is one of the reasons counseling works. Humans don't separate soul and spirit or joint and marrow the way God's word does but the condition is ordained and created by God - possibly for the very purpose of the sinner's final stand before God (although I concede the premise entirely speculative on my part). Some things we learn about ourselves are intolerable, specifically because we did what we did.

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you
—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...
1 Peter 3:27​

A conscience can be very inconvenient . A good conscience's value cannot be measured . The problem in the end is that no sinner will be able to leave the Counselor's "office" of his own accord. Sin is a temporally satisfying putrid prison of rot decorated with one's own fleshly pleasure serving gods that are not gods. To have the illusion removed, discover the stench-filled decay knowing there is no release is incomprehensible until standing before the glory of God when all will be revealed. Each will be made to comprehend it. On this side of the grave sinners will not come into the light for fear their deeds will be seen for what they are. There is no darkness at the throne of God . Everything is seen for what it was and is. Every thought, every emotion, every motive that drove every choice, and every word and every act is laid bare.

We will not be able to tolerate it either
were it not for the armor provided by the shed blood of Christ.
Thank you, Jesus!​

The mythology of hell typically has a full-bodied person standing before God, or writhing in agony engulfed in flames, but because sin rots it will not be a human as God first made humans that faces God's judgment. Stripped of his/her glory by sin long before standing in front of his Creator, with every thought only evil all the time due to the futility of thought itself, and every emotion a lustful desire driven by sin due to a darkened heart, the sinner is nothing more than an animated corpse plodding delusionally through what is incorrectly imagined to be a life. They joyously dance when someone sings "haters are gonna hate," and virtue signal in self-righteousness with "shake it off," completely unaware of the magnitude of corruption and hate within themselves.

And there is no creature hidden from His sight;
all things are open and laid bare
to the eyes of Him to whom we must answer.
Hebrews 4:13​

So, the fools says in his heart there is no God all the way up to the point when s/he must stand before Him, realizing they were always and everywhere wrong.



It must be hell . God will be right there, ever-present, ever and all knowing, the source of the light revealing the full depravity of what the sinner called his life. And then, not tolerating refuse in His kingdom, the malodorous trash is burned up. The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.


.

 

[Arial]

RE:"We need to realize that those who are in hell desire nothing more than the absence of God. They didn't want to be in God's presence during their earthly life, and they certainly don't want him near when they are in hell.
I don't think that this may be true. Seems, though a parable and thus can be only taken so far, the guy in hell talking to Lazarus desperately wanted Lazarus to convince his living brother's on earth to turn to God.
This implies a desire to God, least wise in regard to desiring God for others.
Aside: But, what do I know?

As you say, that account may be a parable. There is much debate about that and all I can say is "I don't know." (Ouch that hurt.)

In any case as a parable it serves as a direct condemnation of the Pharisees who had the law and the prophets and did not see that the fulfillment stood right in front of them. And if they did not see that, even when he rose from the dead and walked among them, they would not believe. And it also may be an actual indication of an intermediate state between death and judgement---the righteous in one place and the wicked in another and an uncrossable chasm. If so, the place of the unrighteous dead is not the wrath of judgement, but it is a type of torment. And the place of those in Christ is with him---peace and joy and no torment but the full consummation of the resurrection not yet.

 

[Arial]

So I cannot follow Sproul here. His statement imports into the present intermediate state features that belong properly to the final state. No matter how one resolves all the details, Scripture does not teach that the wicked are presently experiencing final hell.

I agree the Scripture he uses does that. However, that would require that he answer the question he himself posed at the end of that tiny book dedicated to the atonement with a whole other treatise. His point was countering the common assumption (at least as stated) that hell, whether one is viewing it as the final judgment or has grown in understanding of the actual meaning of Shaol in the Hebrew and worked through all its implications, is a place where God is not.

 

[John Bauer]

His point was countering the common assumption (at least as stated) that hell … is a place where God is not.

If by that he had meant hades, then I would have agreed with him.