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Divine Eternity - Extra-Temporal or Hyper-Temporal

DialecticSkeptic

John Bauer
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Eternity is extra-temporal.

While that is a popular view, it is not the only possible one. I like the view that eternity is hyper-temporal, such that God exists in multiple dimensions of time (out of which emerges our single temporal dimension). Just as a person in three spatial dimensions can fully observe a two-dimensional landscape at once, so a hyper-temporal being can witness the entirety of our timeline simultaneously (transcendent) while also truly interacting with it (immanent). "He knows time as a whole as well as the succession of all its moments," as Bavinck so aptly stated it. This view suggests a richer mode of eternity than mere timelessness. It also has the benefit of avoiding the trinitarian conflict that inheres with a timeless view, where one person of the Trinity experiences time in a real sense (incarnation).
 
It also has the benefit of avoiding the trinitarian conflict that inheres with a timeless view, where one person of the Trinity experiences time in a real sense (incarnation).

Interesting thought. I've also made a similar argument today in another platform about omnidimentional. I am not sure that has any connection to what you are saying in the OP. As for the incarnation, the Son-person can experience his human nature going through time. But the Son who is God in the flesh doesn't go through successions, nor experience time and successions according to the Divine Nature.

Edit, grammar.
 
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As for the incarnation, the Son-person can experience his human nature going through time. But the Son who is God in the flesh doesn't go through successions, nor experience time and successions according to the Divine Nature.

Okay, I will need you to explain how this doesn't fall into the Nestorian error (introducing a division or separation in the two natures of Christ). The Chalcedonian Creed asserts that Christ is "recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; … the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son …"
 
Okay, I will need you to explain how this doesn't fall into the Nestorian error (introducing a division or separation in the two natures of Christ). The Chalcedonian Creed asserts that Christ is "recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; … the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son …"

Not at all. Just because I mention the Son twice in separate sentences doesn't mean I am claiming Nestorianism. What I did in my post was resolved your so-called Trinitarian conflict. Jesus Christ is temporal according to the human nature (Luke 13:33) and atemporal according to the divine nature (Revelations 1:8). Or the Eternal Person of the Son has no successions, like "before the world began" (John 17:5) or "the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20). He remains the same without change and eternal (Hebrews 13:8). That means the Son-person has no successions in the human nature, but the human nature itself goes through successions.
 
Josheb said:
Eternity is extra-temporal.

While that is a popular view, it is not the only possible one. I like the view that eternity is hyper-temporal, such that God exists in multiple dimensions of time (out of which emerges our single temporal dimension). Just as a person in three spatial dimensions can fully observe a two-dimensional landscape at once, so a hyper-temporal being can witness the entirety of our timeline simultaneously (transcendent) while also truly interacting with it (immanent). "He knows time as a whole as well as the succession of all its moments," as Bavinck so aptly stated it. This view suggests a richer mode of eternity than mere timelessness. It also has the benefit of avoiding the trinitarian conflict that inheres with a timeless view, where one person of the Trinity experiences time in a real sense (incarnation).
Here's what I think, as far as I understand the question.

And, not to diminish the extra richness of understanding that Hyper-Temporal Eternity presents to the human mind, it does not improve on the actual implications of Extra-Temporal Eternity. If Immanence is limited to the Hyper-Temporal then it can only deal with the Temporal in the prescribed meanings of "Hyper-Temporal" reality. Extra-Temporal Eternity does not limit Immanence in any way.

A Hyper-Temporal notion of God's economy limits God himself, defining (though vaguely) the reality from which God operates. It proposes to tell us what God does/is. But, an Extra-Temporal notion of God's economy only tells us what God is not.

To button down the difference, Hyper-Temporal notions of reality are drawn on current 'ever-improving' theory of time, and as such are only as valid as that theory currently is.
 
OK .... I'll show off my ignorance by giving my thoughts regarding eternity and time.

Premise1: God does not change (though He creates change)
Premise2: God is eternal (outside of time, no succession of moments)
Premise3: God created time
Premise4: Time consists of material existing in space. It is measured by how material change in space. So for example, let's use
the measuring tool of the material earth and sun and how the earth move through space around the sun. We call it a year.
Premise5: Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together,
and man shall turn again unto dust. This would possibly imply that is God suddenly didn't exist all things would
cease to exist. Things don't exist on their own; rather, God is continually creating them.
Premise6: God created man whom He cherishes, but let's face it, man is an idiot so don't overload him with possibilities
Premise7: Once again Fastfredy has no idea what he's talking about.
Conclusion: Time does not really exist; rather, God continually recreates the universe as He pleases. When God continually recreates
the universe in a progressive, logic pattern it is a mirage we call time.

So, gathering this information what do we have ...
Well, though Premise7 is true, let's ignore it and indulge the author ...

Via Example
Though, from man's perspective it always takes a year for the earth to go around the sun (time) this does not necessitate that this should be true for God is continually creating the universe moment by moment (Premise 5) and could, for example, easily move the earth to the opposite side of its 'normal' orbit of the sun. He would thus change what we call a 1/2 year consisting 183*24*60*60 seconds (15,811,200 secs) into let's say 1 second. But man is an idiot (Premise6) and God knows that if He doesn't create a consistent succession of moments, then man won't be able to cope. So, God makes things occurs consistently which men observe and make conclusions we call science.
So, man's bias from repeatable observations (science) convince him that time must always exist in a consistent, measurable way. But this is not true; rather, it just God making changes in a consistent way so men are able to measure time and assume time is a constant succession of moments that produce repeatable result like a ball falling to the ground in a straight line at a constant acceleration (negating friction).
But, God could create things in disorganized way such as the world as it exists now one moment and the world as it consisted 10 years ago the next moment and so on. So time as we know it is God creating all things moment by moment in a consistent pattern but God could recreate everything moment by moment in an inconsistent pattern which would destroy time as we know it.

Okay, beam me up Scotty.
 
OK .... I'll show off my ignorance by giving my thoughts regarding eternity and time.

Premise1: God does not change (though He creates change)
Premise2: God is eternal (outside of time, no succession of moments)
Premise3: God created time
Premise4: Time consists of material existing in space. It is measured by how material change in space. So for example, let's use
the measuring tool of the material earth and sun and how the earth move through space around the sun. We call it a year.
Premise5: Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together,
and man shall turn again unto dust. This would possibly imply that is God suddenly didn't exist all things would
cease to exist. Things don't exist on their own; rather, God is continually creating them.
Premise6: God created man whom He cherishes, but let's face it, man is an idiot so don't overload him with possibilities
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
Premise7: Once again Fastfredy has no idea what he's talking about.
Conclusion: Time does not really exist; rather, God continually recreates the universe as He pleases. When God continually recreates
the universe in a progressive, logic pattern it is a mirage we call time.

So, gathering this information what do we have ...
Well, though Premise7 is true, let's ignore it and indulge the author ...

Via Example
Though, from man's perspective it always takes a year for the earth to go around the sun (time) this does not necessitate that this should be true for God is continually creating the universe moment by moment (Premise 5) and could, for example, easily move the earth to the opposite side of its 'normal' orbit of the sun. He would thus change what we call a 1/2 year consisting 183*24*60*60 seconds (15,811,200 secs) into let's say 1 second. But man is an idiot (Premise6) and God knows that if He doesn't create a consistent succession of moments, then man won't be able to cope. So, God makes things occurs consistently which men observe and make conclusions we call science.
So, man's bias from repeatable observations (science) convince him that time must always exist in a consistent, measurable way. But this is not true; rather, it just God making changes in a consistent way so men are able to measure time and assume time is a constant succession of moments that produce repeatable result like a ball falling to the ground in a straight line at a constant acceleration (negating friction).
But, God could create things in disorganized way such as the world as it exists now one moment and the world as it consisted 10 years ago the next moment and so on. So time as we know it is God creating all things moment by moment in a consistent pattern but God could recreate everything moment by moment in an inconsistent pattern which would destroy time as we know it.
The question with all of those is, how would we know if he had done so? It's a kind of "Last Thursday-ism"
Okay, beam me up Scotty.
:ROFLMAO:

One of my brothers wrote a story about a day gone very badly and God deciding to make it go differently. And, fun as the story was, his conclusion was that for all we know God may have done that many times, but we can't tell the difference.

Kind of reminds me of a protest I have against many time-travel stories. How is it that the protagonist is the only one aware that something was changed?
 
While that is a popular view, it is not the only possible one.
Yes, it is.
I like the view that eternity is hyper-temporal, such that God exists in multiple dimensions of time (out of which emerges our single temporal dimension).
If time is a measure of cause and effect, then time is creation. It is not eternal. God's existence in multiple dimensions of time is question-begging, and if the dimensions are a product of the Creator creating creation, then the statement is nonsensical. You would have to assume the eternal existence of multiple dimensions..... in time and that is self-contradictory.

That view is logically untenable and conflicts with the first verse of the Bible.
 
DialecticSkeptic said:
While that is a popular view, it is not the only possible one.

Yes, it is.

Ipse dixit, an arbitrary and unsupported assertion. Bare assertions are fallacious insofar as they summarily deny that an issue is even debatable.

Since the alternative view that I presented doesn't involve a contradiction, it is possible by definition.


If time is a measure of cause and effect, ...

It is—but in our singular, linear temporal dimension, which God transcends in his eternity.


God's existence in multiple dimensions of time is question-begging, ...

Saying that eternity is hyper-temporal is no more question-begging than saying that it is extra-temporal. Both views attempt to describe eternity and neither is self-evident—they both require argumentation. You would need to show why hyper-temporality assumes what it's trying to prove in a way that extra-temporality does not.


... and if the dimensions are a product of the Creator creating creation, then the statement is nonsensical.

We are bumping up against the limitations of human language, insofar as the term "dimensions" (as used in physics) refers to distinct, measurable parameters of reality—our four-dimensional spacetime continuum. In that sense, it is the creation of God, yes, which his existence necessarily transcends. If you want to constrain this discussion to the limits of human language and eschew seeking to explore, not just mention but explore any reality beyond this universe God created, so be it. However, I enjoy stretching my brain and our linguistic barriers in order to talk about the things of God that necessarily defy our immediate comprehension. I recognize that scientifically the term "dimensions" implies measurability, but I am using it analogically to describe a framework in which God's relationship to time could be more complex than mere timelessness.


That view ... conflicts with the first verse of the Bible.

The first verse of the Bible says, "In the beginning ..."

The beginning of what? Time? Please, provide the historical-grammatical exegesis which supports that.
 
Ipse dixit, an arbitrary and unsupported assertion. Bare assertions are fallacious insofar as they summarily deny that an issue is even debatable.
Then you should stop making them.
Since the alternative view that I presented doesn't involve a contradiction, it is possible by definition.
It does involve a contradiction.
It is—but in our singular, linear temporal dimension, which God transcends in his eternity.
Red herring. Not once have even remotely suggested time or the discussion is limited to "our singular, linear temporal dimension," and scores of posts in this forum and forums throughout cyberspace demonstrate I hold a much different view than that....

...which has, so far been ignored.
Saying that eternity is hyper-temporal is no more question-begging than saying that it is extra-temporal.
LOL.

Do you understand the meaning of the prefixes "hyper-" and "extra-"? If so, then you know that statement is incorrect.
Both views attempt to describe eternity and neither is self-evident
That is incorrect.
— they both require argumentation.
Yep, but "extra-temporal" is a logical necessity and inevitability given Genesis 1:1 (and many other passages in the Bible). "Hyper-tempporal" necessarily and inescapably begs the question. I have explained how that is the case and you have ignored all of that content.
You would need to show why hyper-temporality assumes what it's trying to prove in a way that extra-temporality does not.
Already done. Start addressing that content instead of posting fruitless content.
We are bumping up against the limitations of human language...
You sound like @makesends! ;)

I will concede there exist limits in human understanding and our ability to articulate that which we do not fully comprehend but appeals to those limits is fallacious.
.....insofar as the term "dimensions" (as used in physics) refers to distinct, measurable parameters of reality—our four-dimensional spacetime continuum.
As far as our current degree of comprehension goes, we humans live in a ten or eleven-dimensional singularity. Limiting this discussion to four is factually wrong and logically irrational (and to the degree that the lapsarian views were first formulated prior to that knowledge we can reasonably infer serious errors occurred on both sides of that debate).
In that sense, it is the creation of God, yes, which his existence necessarily transcends. If you want to constrain this discussion to the limits of human language and eschew seeking to explore, not just mention but explore any reality beyond this universe God created, so be it.
Self-contradictory.

You were the one asserting human limits of language. You are now the one putting that on me as if I were the one wanting to constrain the discussion, and you are doing that in direct violation of Rule 2.2. How about you speak for yourself and let me do the same. We both know the other is capable of being very articulate. That statement is beneath you and has no place in this discussion.
However, I enjoy stretching my brain and our linguistic barriers in order to talk about the things of God that necessarily defy our immediate comprehension.
Then ditch the notion of "linguistic barriers" and stop sabotaging your own case.
I recognize that scientifically the term "dimensions" implies measurability, but I am using it analogically to describe a framework in which God's relationship to time could be more complex than mere timelessness.
(shakes head) When employing an analogy, state the example is an analogy so readers don't think you're being literal. Yes, "dimensions" does imply measurability so don't use that word if you mean something immeasurable.
The first verse of the Bible says, "In the beginning ..."

The beginning of what? Time? Please, provide the historical-grammatical exegesis which supports that.
Before I do so I will simply observe the fact that you not knowing this is something you should consider about yourself and your ability to contribute anything decisive to this discussion.

I know you to be a studious individual. I know you endeavor to reason well. I know this from reading your posts. The problem as I see it is that you have not yet thought through your own positions (at least a few of which are factually incorrect and poorly reasoned) and as a defense of those positions you seek first to blame me rather than self-examine. I know this because I have already answered your question. I, therefore, know you are asking a question already answered in multiple posts in multiple forums. That implies you either haven't read those posts, have read them but did not consider the relevant content, or have read them and don't care and are being willfully misleading. For the sake of good will and fellowship, I will assume the former because I do not trade posts with those who ask questions already answered. They waste my time.

The beginning of creation.

Now, knowing the answer to your question, do you really need me to provide bow to the select hermeneutic you've imposed (historical-grammatical) when many other equally viable alternatives exist? Or can you see the request is foolish because we both already know the answer?

I believe you and I can have the needed conversation.
 
Saying that eternity is hyper-temporal is no more question-begging than saying that it is extra-temporal. Both views attempt to describe eternity and neither is self-evident—they both require argumentation. You would need to show why hyper-temporality assumes what it's trying to prove in a way that extra-temporality does not.

I would think under the sun a time period that will not be remembered. Univeral Alzheimer's for all .

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten

Old things to include the written word letter of law (death) will never come to mind forever and ever.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Adding hyper to the temporal does not change the eternal.


Two choices temporal the historical what the eyes see and the invisible eternal. They must be mixed like in the use of all parables.

The most valuable tool needed to rightly divide the parables must be used

2 Corinthian 4:18 ;While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;(no hyper) but the things which are not seen are eternal.


.
 
While that is a popular view
Prove that is the popular viewpoint.

"Ipse dixit, an arbitrary and unsupported assertion. Bare assertions are fallacious insofar as they summarily deny that an issue is even debatable."

Exactly!

{edited for violation of rules 2.1 and 2.2}.
, it is not the only possible one.
Who says it is?
I like the view that eternity is hyper-temporal, such that God exists in multiple dimensions of time (out of which emerges our single temporal dimension).
If time is finite, then God cannot exist solely within time - no matter how many dimensions of time may or may not exist. If time is infinite, then God is not the only infinite thing existing. Scripture tells us that all things that were made were made by God. If time is a created then that immediately conflicts with the pre-existence and aseity of God. Logic dictates the Creator exists external to that which He creates. God cannot, therefore, exist solely within time, multiple dimensions or not.
Just as a person in three spatial dimensions can fully observe a two-dimensional landscape at once, so a hyper-temporal being can witness the entirety of our timeline simultaneously (transcendent) while also truly interacting with it (immanent).
That is incorrect. It's also a poor analogy.

First, it is very difficult to view the picture from within the frame and the op asserts God exists in time, not external to it. Second, there are two problems with the analogy because, 1) from the Reformed pov God did NOT look down the timeline when He ordained all things from eternity, 2) the implication of the analogy is that God exists in a dimension, or even that God is a dimension. In addition, eternity has no beginning or end and the conditions of causality (if they exist at all) are much different than that which occurs in creation, in time and space.

Many times have I used the analogy of a three--dimensional object intersecting a two-dimensional surface. I have described how people living on a plane observe the intersection of a sphere passing through the plane as a point or a circle. HERE is an example. As the sphere first contacts the plane all that is visible to those living on the plane is a dot, a point. As the sphere passes through the plane the dot becomes a circle, and the circle grows until the widest part of the sphere passes through the plane and then the circle is observed to decrease in size. It's a useful analogy for understanding how little of God we know and understand. It's not a very good analogy for explaining God.

What that comment does get correct is that God exists external to all that He created AND is able to enter and exist His creation as He pleases.
"He knows time as a whole as well as the succession of all its moments," as Bavinck so aptly stated it.
Bavinck, ironically, was not convinced of supralapsarianism.

In applying lapsarianism to predestination he wrote,

"Accordingly, neither the supra- nor the infralapsarian view of predestination is able to do full justice to the truth of Scripture, and to satisfy our theological thinking. The true element in supralapsarianism is: that it emphasizes the unity of the divine decree and the fact that God had one final aim in view, that sin's entrance into the universe was not something unexpected and unlooked for by God but that he willed sin in a certain sense, and that the work of creation was immediately adapted to God's redemptive activity so that even before the fall, i.e., in the creation of Adam, Christ's coming was definitely fixed. And the true element in infralapsarianism is: that the decrees manifest not only a unity but also a diversity (with a view to their several objects), that these decrees reveal not only a teleological but also a causal order, that creation and fall cannot merely be regarded as means to an end, and that sin should be regarded not as an element of progress but rather as an element of disturbance in the universe so that in and by itself it cannot have been willed by God. In general, the formulation of the final goal of all things in such a manner that God reveals his justice in the reprobate and his mercy in the elect is too simple and incomplete......... Briefly stated, God's decree together with the history of the universe which answers to it should not be exclusively described after the manner of infra- and supralapsarianism as a straight line indicating a relation merely of before and after, cause and effect, means and goal; but it should also be viewed as a system the several elements of which are coordinately related to one another and cooperate with one another toward that goal which always was and is and will be the deepest ground of all existence, namely, the glorification of God."

Which is one of the reasons why I mentioned Bavinck in the thread describing Objections to Supralapsarianism. The reason God knows time as a whole is because He created time. Time is created, not self-existent.
This view suggests a richer mode of eternity than mere timelessness.
That has yet to be proven.
It also has the benefit of avoiding the trinitarian conflict that inheres with a timeless view, where one person of the Trinity experiences time in a real sense (incarnation).
Relevance? Just because a position avoids a problem does not prove it correct. I avoided running over a dog this morning. That does not mean I know how to build a particle accelerator. If the observation something is avoided is intended to assert some form or degree of validity, then that is a false cause error. Whether Trinity or not, logic dictates a Creator necessarily exists prior to and external to that which He creates. If time is created by the Creator then that Creator exists prior to and external to time. Of course that Creator is able to "transcend" all that He created! That is axiomatic.

It does not prove the veracity of "hyper-temporal," or the superiority of hyper-temporal over extra-temporal.
 
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@DialecticSkeptic,

Point of observation: When this op is taken line by line and each statement measured for its validity and veracity..... every single sentence proves problematic. That does not mean hyper-temporality is incorrect, but it does mean the initial attempt to prove it correct was poorly executed. Improve and refine the argument. That is one of the reasons why the forum exists.
 
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