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Did the fall initiate death and predation?

Carbon

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I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?
 
I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Genesis 2:17 “But from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For on the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
 
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I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?
For whatever it may be worth, while I have real doubts about it being as CS Lewis seemed to suppose, it seems to me reasonable that there was innocent death, by apparent mishap or other things, unrelated to sin. If the 'natural' order of things is the same now as it was then, leaves became dirt because of earthworms, who got squished sometimes. Death occurred. I have no problem with microbes which seem to die at pretty much the same rate as they multiply, depending on available sustenance and protection from UV rays, and so on.

CS Lewis' space trilogy suggests intelligent life on other planets, (allegorically, but with humor and depth), one race of which goes on hunts for a shark-like being, in which hunts sometimes a hunter is killed. Also, there are those who by mishap get bashed in the head or otherwise lose their mind and need to be 'un-made' by the Ruler of the planet (the Angel assigned to that planet, as Lucifer was assigned to this one). Fun books, btw.

As is seen, particularly in the last two books, the way of sin and the way of this present age stands in STARK contrast with the simple principle of life and death. I think that living and dying physically has little to do with the perversion, presumptuousness and self-promotion/self-importance that is sin.

To me, the view that a lot of believers seem to espouse, that physical death and suffering is only a result of Adam's sin (and any subsequent sin) is almost superstitious. It also doesn't put sin into the category of abominable evil in which it belongs—the feel of incongruity against reality, that the creation can REBEL against the Creator.

I have no problem with the idea that the Creator would snuff out a life for whatever reason he has to do so. But that's rarely what is argued against, (as though some would think that God would have no right to do that). But what is argued as basic in most any FreeWill debate is that sin implies an awful thing for which we lack proper adjectives. Not mere physical death.
 
Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Genesis 2:17 “But from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For on the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Genesis 1:30 is also indicative of non-predation, that vegetation was given for food to all the beasts of the earth. But that doesn't mean that animal lives were not snuffed out as God saw fit. I'm hoping rabbits and mice were, shall we say, 'less productive', back then.
 
Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

Genesis 2:17 “But from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. For on the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Great passages.
 
I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?

I believe the potential for animal and plant death, I don't see the Bible speaking to anything but people here.

The support for there being no death for people in Eden is that Adam and Eve are the only people God speaks of creating or the Bible speaks of existing at that time and they not only aren't dead, one of the noted effects of sin was death, and they knew this prior to eating the fruit of the tree.

"You will die in the day you will eat it" and Satan's "Surely you won't die"

The only reason Adam and Eve didn't die is that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation13:8) and it was His clothing Adam and Eve were given when they were given skins to wear. (Genesis 3:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30)

So while I don't see the Bible speaking to plant and animal death it certainly spoke to and about death for people. (Genesis 2:17)
 
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For whatever it may be worth, while I have real doubts about it being as CS Lewis seemed to suppose, it seems to me reasonable that there was innocent death, by apparent mishap or other things, unrelated to sin. If the 'natural' order of things is the same now as it was then, leaves became dirt because of earthworms, who got squished sometimes. Death occurred. I have no problem with microbes which seem to die at pretty much the same rate as they multiply, depending on available sustenance and protection from UV rays, and so on.

CS Lewis' space trilogy suggests intelligent life on other planets, (allegorically, but with humor and depth), one race of which goes on hunts for a shark-like being, in which hunts sometimes a hunter is killed. Also, there are those who by mishap get bashed in the head or otherwise lose their mind and need to be 'un-made' by the Ruler of the planet (the Angel assigned to that planet, as Lucifer was assigned to this one). Fun books, btw.

As is seen, particularly in the last two books, the way of sin and the way of this present age stands in STARK contrast with the simple principle of life and death. I think that living and dying physically has little to do with the perversion, presumptuousness and self-promotion/self-importance that is sin.

To me, the view that a lot of believers seem to espouse, that physical death and suffering is only a result of Adam's sin (and any subsequent sin) is almost superstitious. It also doesn't put sin into the category of abominable evil in which it belongs—the feel of incongruity against reality, that the creation can REBEL against the Creator.

I have no problem with the idea that the Creator would snuff out a life for whatever reason he has to do so. But that's rarely what is argued against, (as though some would think that God would have no right to do that). But what is argued as basic in most any FreeWill debate is that sin implies an awful thing for which we lack proper adjectives. Not mere physical death.
I'm not seeing how this relates. Probably just me, I'm just slow sometimes. :)
 
I believe the potential for animal and plant death, I don't see the Bible speaking to anything but people here.
Amen to that!
The support for there being no death for people in Eden is that Adam and Eve are the only people God speaks of creating or the Bible speaks of existing at that time and they not only aren't dead, one of the noted effects of sin was death, and they knew this prior to eating the fruit of the tree.

"You will die in the day you will eat it" and Satan's "Surely you won't die"

The only reason Adam and Eve didn't die is that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation13:8) and it was His clothing Adam and Eve were given when they were given skins to wear. (Genesis 3:21)

So while I don't see the Bible speaking to plant and animal death it certainly spoke to and about death for people.
Agreed.
 
I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?
Romans 5:12 in context is about what I think of as spiritual death. One might extend that to physical death as a side issue, but the context doesn't speak to that, in my opinion. That Christ died for us, is not being argued against here, but I have a real problem with the notion some seem to get from the passage, that his death was merely a physical matter, to pay for what we would have had to pay with MUCH worse than mere physical death.

Side note: That right there is another assumption gained from a superstitious reading of the Bible, coming from those who assume our job on this earth is to figure out how to measure up to what good thing God has in mind for us, which without our cooperation just will not come to pass. They categorize everything according to that worldview, that Christ died for us, to make it possible for us to realize our destiny. Little notion of the depth of Grace, and the depravity of 'the flesh'.
 
I believe the potential for animal and plant death, I don't see the Bible speaking to anything but people here.

The support for there being no death for people in Eden is that Adam and Eve are the only people God speaks of creating or the Bible speaks of existing at that time and they not only aren't dead, one of the noted effects of sin was death, and they knew this prior to eating the fruit of the tree.

"You will die in the day you will eat it" and Satan's "Surely you won't die"

The only reason Adam and Eve didn't die is that Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation13:8) and it was His clothing Adam and Eve were given when they were given skins to wear. (Genesis 3:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30)

So while I don't see the Bible speaking to plant and animal death it certainly spoke to and about death for people. (Genesis 2:17)
I think they did die, and that was what the serpent had in mind for them when he lied to them. Not physical death.
 
I think they did die, and that was what the serpent had in mind for them when he lied to them. Not physical death.


I think it was a mixture of both, physical and spiritual (cast out of the garden where they lived in God's presence and walked with the Lord). That's spiritual. But it introduced physical death as well.

I think two things occurred that day, physical death was introduced and being cut off from God occured.

The remedy for both is Christ's death and ressurection. We will be ressurected physically and glorified, entering the final state of living in the presence of God.

The hope of the physical ressurection isn't nothing - it's attached to the spiritual reality that goes with it.

While the Psalm says:
"Those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."(Isaiah 40:31)

I can, even disabled say that's me right now, even though I can't walk because that's the actual spiritual reality.

But that doesn't mean there's not a physical ressurection and a physical restoration of what God wants us to have also.

"I have come to give life, and give it more abundantky" (John 10:10)

Includes both the spiritual and the physical reality. He ressurected from the dead bodily. (1 Corinthians 15:35-58)

Over spiritualizing is as much a danger as under. Both go hand in hand. What's in store for us is like a return to Eden, but better.
 
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@makesends - the above means I think that physical death was actually introduced that day, and not prior to it

If there wasn't a physical reality that was lost, we would not need a physical restoration. Just my thoughts.
 
@makesends - the above means I think that physical death was actually introduced that day, and not prior to it

If there wasn't a physical reality that was lost, we would not need a physical restoration. Just my thoughts.
I get that, and I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that I don't have a problem with it being otherwise, about physical death and life-cycles of animals. If Adam had not sinned, I don't know for sure that he would have lived forever, but really, the question is moot. That wasn't what God had decreed would happen.
 
I get that, and I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that I don't have a problem with it being otherwise, about physical death and life-cycles of animals. If Adam had not sinned, I don't know for sure that he would have lived forever, but really, the question is moot. That wasn't what God had decreed would happen.

I believe God determined this way so we would know him differently than the other creatures. We supposedly understand God and know God through the relationship we have in our weakness through the risen Savior in a way not even the angels in heaven know Him.

I think that's kind of an amazing thing, so no part of this journey should be taken for granted.

I am too deterministic for many what it's. To me it's just trying to understand what now is, and act accordingly if possible.

I'm not good at that "acting accordingly" myself, but that just shows me more of His Holiness and perfection, in the end.
 
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I know there are many believers who do not believe the physical laws changed until after the Fall, and also that none of the animals died until after the Fall. The main passage they seem to use is Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— But does this really support that view?

Thoughts? Can you support your understanding with scripture?


I think we should be teaching that the Bible is true.
 
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