Daniel 9:24-27

[Carbon]

This chapter in Daniel has always fascinated me. I have studied it a few times, and I have to admit, at least to me, it is not easy to sort out. I believe I have a good understanding of it (keep in mind I am a covenant theology proponent.) But I am very interested in how others understand it. Those who are Post-Mill, Historical Pre-Mil & Dispensational. Partial preterist, and preterist. and Pann-Mills.


Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

 

[Arial]

This chapter in Daniel has always fascinated me. I have studied it a few times, and I have to admit, at least to me, it is not easy to sort out. I believe I have a good understanding of it (keep in mind I am a covenant theology proponent.) But I am very interested in how others understand it. Those who are Post-Mill, Historical Pre-Mil & Dispensational. Partial preterist, and preterist. and Pann-Mills.


Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

What translation is that? Here is the ESV.



“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. And for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed."

The "an anointed one" in the translation you use is translated Messiah (word definition when in lower case, and also has the meaning of chosen one) and Jesus in upper case.) He is not "an" anointed one but the anointed one. I think the translation use skews the interpretation in one direction. There are other views on that passage, so I question why only one is permitted by the translation itself.

 

[Carbon]

What translation is that? Here is the ESV.



“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. And for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed."

The "an anointed one" in the translation you use is translated Messiah (word definition when in lower case, and also has the meaning of chosen one) and Jesus in upper case.) He is not "an" anointed one but the anointed one. I think the translation use skews the interpretation in one direction. There are other views on that passage, so I question why only one is permitted by the translation itself.

Hmmm, thought I chose NASB, but think I messed up.

 

[TMSO]

What translation is that? Here is the ESV.



“Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. And for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed."

The "an anointed one" in the translation you use is translated Messiah (word definition when in lower case, and also has the meaning of chosen one) and Jesus in upper case.) He is not "an" anointed one but the anointed one. I think the translation use skews the interpretation in one direction. There are other views on that passage, so I question why only one is permitted by the translation itself.

Then that means the prophecy isn't pointing to Jesus at all, because the one cut off is the same as the previous mention of anointed one. Is it just coincidence that if one calculates the number of days off of this prophecy, it ends on what would have been the triumphal entry in 30 AD?

 

[Bruiser]

This chapter in Daniel has always fascinated me. I have studied it a few times, and I have to admit, at least to me, it is not easy to sort out. I believe I have a good understanding of it (keep in mind I am a covenant theology proponent.) But I am very interested in how others understand it. Those who are Post-Mill, Historical Pre-Mil & Dispensational. Partial preterist, and preterist. and Pann-Mills.


Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

I suppose this is Partial Preterism...

Amazing Prophecy ~ by ReverendRV * January 12

Daniel 9:26-a NIV; After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

Do you want a good reason to believe in the God of the Bible? This verse is the middle part of a Passage that predicted the time of Jesus Christ’s death; a Prophecy made hundreds of years before it happened! ~ When Israel was conquered and carried off to Babylon, Daniel kept his Faith in God and was elevated to a high office in that Nation. An Angel spoke to the Prophet Daniel and said there would be a time that Israel would return to rebuild its land; then the clock would begin ticking, counting down the time until their Messiah would die. The Sixty-Two ‘Sevens’ simply means Sixty-Two times Seven; equaling Four Hundred Eighty-Three years, after you add the Forty-Nine years mentioned in the previous verse. There is not much space here to give all the details but you can research this to see if it’s true. Some would suggest that this is speaking of someone else, but none compare to Jesus when it comes to his death matching the given Time. Too good to be true? We have a copy of this verse in the Dead Sea Scrolls that dates back Fifty years before the time of Jesus. ~ There are MANY Signposts in the Old Testament which predicted who the Messiah is; this is just the tip of the iceberg...

It is important to know what a Messiah is. Messiah means ‘Anointed One’; in the case of Jesus it means he’s the King of Israel and their High Priest. The reason they needed such a person is because of their Sin. God’s Ten Commandments warn us against cursing God’s Name and having another God besides the Almighty God. Have you ever used God’s name in Vain? I have. Have you ever had another God than the Almighty? No? I have; but not in a way that most would think. Having NO God is the same as having a god other than the Almighty God; have you ever heard of the almighty Dollar? That empty space where God belongs in your life will not stay empty; Nature abhors a Vacuum and you do have another god. ~ When God goes so far out of the way to give proof he exists, pinpointing the future so precisely; ask yourself, would you be innocent or guilty if this God judged you by the Ten Commandments? It is important to be honest with yourself; YES you would be guilty. Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Sinners are condemned to Hell forever and ever…

But you don’t have to go there! Since Jesus is the Messiah of Israel, he is their High Priest. Not only that, but he will be your Christ, which is the Gentile word for Messiah. When you realize that there is a God and you are condemned, then it is time for the Gospel. Jesus is God’s Son who came to live a Sinless life so it could be said that at least SOMEONE would do such a thing. This Righteous requirement is what we all need in order to be innocent in the eyes of Holy God. Jesus died on the Cross, shedding his blood to Atone for Sin. He was buried but rose from the dead in three days with a living, Glorified body. Christ shares his Righteousness with all who are Saved by Grace, through Faith in him, without our trying to add to his Righteousness. Trust in Jesus as your Savior and you won’t be put to shame. ~ The people we call the Three Wise Men came to see the new born King of Israel; right on time! How did they know when Jesus would be born?? It’s because of the legacy of the Prophet Daniel; he taught them to look for the Morning Star around this same time. You would be surprised at how many reasons there are to believe. Read your Bible and find a Church that will show you more and more reasons to believe! How many reasons do you need? I will write that many Gospel Tracts…

Matthew 2:2 NLT; "Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose, and we have come to worship him."

 

[TMSO]

This chapter in Daniel has always fascinated me. I have studied it a few times, and I have to admit, at least to me, it is not easy to sort out. I believe I have a good understanding of it (keep in mind I am a covenant theology proponent.) But I am very interested in how others understand it. Those who are Post-Mill, Historical Pre-Mil & Dispensational. Partial preterist, and preterist. and Pann-Mills.


Daniel 9: 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. 25So you are to know and understand that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with streets and moat, even in times of distress. 26Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

This thread quickly abandoned apparently, but here is a question. One has to consider these 6 things. However, if one of them is not yet fulfilled, then the prophecy is still ongoing. (Unless, of course, God didn't mean it. One has to consider what that means since this was God's words from His mouth, to Gabriel, to Daniel as a decree.)

So, the question is, "to finish the wrongdoing", or, as in other versions "to finish the trespass". What is this trespass, and, if we look through history, is it clear that it has been finished/sealed? (Another meaning of the word finish in Hebrew.) Note that the word trespass is singular. This prophecy is to Israel as we see, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city. So everything in this prophecy is only for Israel. After all, those terms are addressed to your people and your holy city.

This trespass is singular, so it is specific. The next thing it says is to mane an end of sin, so it isn't one of these "sins". It is something that is of such an order as to be set apart from the "sin" of the very next mention. So what is that trespass, and has it been sealed/finished, or is it still ongoing? If it is still ongoing, does it not mean this prophecy is still ongoing?

 

[Carbon]

This thread quickly abandoned apparently,

Yes, seems so.

but here is a question.

Okay.

One has to consider these 6 things.

Alright

However, if one of them is not yet fulfilled, then the prophecy is still ongoing.

Okay

(Unless, of course, God didn't mean it. One has to consider what that means since this was God's words from His mouth, to Gabriel, to Daniel as a decree.)

True

So, the question is, "to finish the wrongdoing", or, as in other versions "to finish the trespass". What is this trespass, and, if we look through history, is it clear that it has been finished/sealed? (Another meaning of the word finish in Hebrew.) Note that the word trespass is singular. This prophecy is to Israel as we see, "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city. So everything in this prophecy is only for Israel. After all, those terms are addressed to your people and your holy city.

This trespass is singular, so it is specific. The next thing it says is to mane an end of sin, so it isn't one of these "sins". It is something that is of such an order as to be set apart from the "sin" of the very next mention. So what is that trespass, and has it been sealed/finished, or is it still ongoing? If it is still ongoing, does it not mean this prophecy is still ongoing?

Well, whether the trespass is singular or not, it should be kept in context, so let's look at at least verse 24.
“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. NASB

First, I have to say I believe the "Seventy Weeks" are symbolic.


To finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. This period was initiated by God's decree to rebuild Jerusalem and culminated in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Not what the dipsey's teach.
It emphasizes the completion of atonement and inauguration of the new covenant, not a future, delayed tribulation period.

As a matter of fact, I believe, for many years, many believers have been referring to the passage about Christ as the antichrist.

See here in 9:27, the he in bold is Christ, not the antichrist, as so many (pre-mills and dipsys) have tried to claim
. And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

 

[TMSO]

Yes, seems so.

Okay.

Alright

Okay

True

Well, whether the trespass is singular or not, it should be kept in context, so let's look at at least verse 24.

Always build the scaffolding first, then work on the building right? It makes the argument more orderly.

“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. NASB

First, I have to say I believe the "Seventy Weeks" are symbolic.

Let's continue building a scaffolding. Before looking at the prophecy, we have to look at what the context is for the passage. In this case, it is the whole chapter, not just this prophecy. We get this from what Gabriel says to Daniel:
" 22 He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the [r]command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision." Daniel is highly esteemed because he has faith that is on a whole other level.

So the first thing is this seventy weeks is an improper translation of the Hebrew, where a more proper translation is seventy sets of seven... undefined, because it is defined by context going back to Daniel's prayer. And what context is that? The 70 year exile of Jeremiah's prophecy, which was not symbolic. The reason Daniel was praying is that he knew the 70 years was shortly coming to an end. He believed God's judgment of Israel would end with this exile. However, for the Messianic Kingdom to come, all Israel had to repent of their sin and set their hearts on God. Hence Daniel prayed over the sins of Israel. See how context gives way to the prophecy? Finish the trespass, make an end to sin, etc. God is laying out His final dealings before He redeems Israel. Before Israel does as God said in Deuteronomy I believe, and they turn their hearts to Him, and He turns to them and blesses them.

Given this is predictive prophecy, and we can see what has been fulfilled and that it fits the timeline precisely, why would this be symbolic? How is that having a consistent hermeneutic? Understand, this is God's answer to Daniel, and it marks God's final actions towards Israel in redeeming Israel. This is not speaking of Jesus' salvation of the world. This is speaking of Jesus, Israel's Messiah (not the Gentiles Messiah) taking care of business with Israel. Jesus is not the Messiah of the Gentiles, He is the Savior of the Gentiles.

To finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. This period was initiated by God's decree to rebuild Jerusalem and culminated in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Not what the dipsey's teach.

So first, we have to understand what this is saying, and then we have to decide whether or not we see this in reality. These are VERY specifically defined things, thus not symbolic. (AKJV) "24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. " The word for transgression in Hebrew is singular. It speaks of something that is serious enough that the word transgression is used. It speaks of something that stands between Israel the nation, and God. Would you say that there is still some serious trangression (singular) that stands between the nation of Israel today and God? Or has God already redeemed Israel, and everlasting righteousness is what is seen throughout Israel? The sins in making an end of sins speaks to daily sins, normal life.

--- see next comment for rest, this is a little long.

 

[TMSO]

To finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place. This period was initiated by God's decree to rebuild Jerusalem and culminated in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Not what the dipsey's teach.
It emphasizes the completion of atonement and inauguration of the new covenant, not a future, delayed tribulation period.
See here in 9:27, the he in bold is Christ, not the antichrist, as so many (pre-mills and dipsys) have tried to claim
. And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

There seems to be some confusion. This is not speaking to the completion of atonement and inauguration of the new covenant. Not at all. Remember, this whole prophecy deals solely with "your people" and "your holy city". This is God speaking of His dealings solely with Israel. Unless you want to say all Gentiles are damned because the new covenant is solely for Israel, then you may have a point here. This is speaking to God's FINAL dealings with Israel. This is in addition to the 70 years of exile they just went through. Not only are the 70 years of exile not the end of God's dealings/judgments on Israel, He has set aside 70 sets of 7 years MORE before His dealings with Israel are complete.

Please note that if you follow proper grammatical rules, the he you mentioned points back to the phrase "and the people of the prince that shall come". It points back to this prince.

So first thing. Since the 69th set of seven ended in 30 (or 33) AD, and each set of 7 is 7 years, how do we get from 30 (or 33) AD to 70 AD in 7 years? We have to be consistent, or all of a sudden, God isn't consistent. Hence, even the early church father's recognized the gap. However, they focused on the last 3 1/2 years. They did not see a 7 year "Great Tribulation", but that that would be the last 3 1/2 years.

As for 70 AD, when it happens the 70th set of 7 is not mentioned. This is all of what happened after the 69 sets of 7. Later comes when he strengthens/makes firm, an accord, agreement, treaty with the many. As for covenant, the strongs says

"2 constitution, ordinance, between monarch and subjects: David and Abner 2 Samuel 3:12,13,21; David and the elders of Israel 2 Samuel 5:3 = 1 Chronicles 11:3; Zedekiah and his people Jeremiah 34:8-18; hostile prince and Israelites Daniel 9:27."

So it is not speaking of the new covenant at all.

For my belief, as you believed the 70 weeks were symbolic, I believe the gap represents the time of Israel's rejection of God/Messiah, and that will last until God finally brings about the final week, and ends His dealings with Israel with those six things mentioned at the start of the prophecy. I believe the transgression that stands between God and Israel is their rejection of God/Messiah. God will bring that to an end at the final redemption of Israel.