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Christ and his Disciples

God always was...Jesus, the Word who is God according to the Holy Spirit inspired John was not a created being

True. Jesus the second of the trinity of the Godhead was always and never was not.

Proverbs is describing "wisdom" who is identified as a she....This verse is not about Jesus.
"No beginning" or "never was" means "does not exist."
Yahwah (The Father) created all things. If anything has "no beginning," or "never was," then it does not exist.
 
God always was...Jesus, the Word who is God according to the Holy Spirit inspired John was not a created being

True. Jesus the second of the trinity of the Godhead was always and never was not.

Proverbs is describing "wisdom" who is identified as a she....This verse is not about Jesus.
A title for Yahwah, the Father, is Holy Spirit, and His title was first introduced as a member of a trinity in the fourth century A.D.
God is "Holy," and He is a "Spirit."

Pagans have a thing for trinities; it is not a concept in Judaism, or the first Christians.

Pagan converts to Christianity determined that God was a trinity, to go along with their other Pagan trinity beliefs.
 
"No beginning" or "never was" means "does not exist."
Yahwah (The Father) created all things. If anything has "no beginning," or "never was," then it does not exist.
FACE PALM......are you saying God at one time didn't exist? Hmmmmmm?
 
A title for Yahwah, the Father, is Holy Spirit, and His title was first introduced as a member of a trinity in the fourth century A.D.
God is "Holy," and He is a "Spirit."

Pagans have a thing for trinities; it is not a concept in Judaism, or the first Christians.

Pagan converts to Christianity determined that God was a trinity, to go along with their other Pagan trinity beliefs.
LOL...if you say so.

NEXT
 
If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
 
FACE PALM......are you saying God at one time didn't exist? Hmmmmmm?
Just what do you think the word "formed" means?

Isaiah 43:10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
 
@CherubRam this point was for you, please answer it if you can...

If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jesus is using the same title as God does in Isaiah. There can't be two Firsts and Lasts.
 
@CherubRam this point was for you, please answer it if you can...

If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jesus is using the same title as God does in Isaiah. There can't be two Firsts and Lasts.

Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.

KJV Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Revelation 1:11


New International Version



11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
 
Because KJV Rev 1:11 was found to be a corruption it is not included into other bibles.

KJV Revelation 1:11. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Revelation 1:11​

New International Version​


11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”
I did not even quote Rev 1:11, nor did I use the KJV. Try Rev Rev 22:12-13
 
Have a nice day. Wow!
That doesn't work, I kindly asked if you (in post #50) could explain...

"
@CherubRam this point was for you, please answer it if you can...

If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jesus is using the same title as God does in Isaiah. There can't be two Firsts and Lasts.

*******************************
And you came back with Rev 1:11 and ...Have a nice day. Wow!
??
 
That doesn't work, I kindly asked if you (in post #50) could explain...

"
@CherubRam this point was for you, please answer it if you can...

If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jesus is using the same title as God does in Isaiah. There can't be two Firsts and Lasts.

*******************************
And you came back with Rev 1:11 and ...Have a nice day. Wow!
??
This is why Christ is equal to God in certain scriptures.

Pope is God on Earth

April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288

“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.


“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap


Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894


Pope John Paul II:
"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ." (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter's and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L'Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble


Pope Nicholas:
“I am in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Viccar of God, have both one consistory. And I am able to do almost all that God can do. I then being above all, seem by this reason to be above all gods.” Source: “The Church Historians of England: Reformation Period” by Josiah Pratt, 1856, p 159

Nicholas also claimed that the Popes had the power to change the gospel itself, “Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Source: “Ibid”, Pratt, p 159


"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."


Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.


Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translation Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205



We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5)

"It must always be clear, when the expression sister churches is used in this proper sense that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not sister but mother of all the particular churches"
-- Cardinal Ratzinger.

Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....FURTHERMORE WE DECLARE, STATE AND DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS THAT THEY SUBMIT TO THE
ROMAN PONTIFF [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino
esse de necessitate salutis]."​

 

"THE POPE IS AS IT WERE GOD ON EARTH, SOLE SOVEREIGN OF THE FAITHFUL OF CHRIST, CHIEF OF KINGS, having plenitude
of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

• The Pope is God On This Earth

• The Pope is Immortal

• The Pope is Infallible

• The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666

• The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws

• The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church

• All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved

• Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful!

• The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth

• Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm · Like

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685:
"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power
to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."


Pope John XXIII:
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)


Quotes from the Catholic Church

The antichrist speaks his blasphemies. Below you will find a large number of quotes that have come from the Roman Catholic Church during it's history. Please don't look at these quotes and say "Oh the Catholic Church has changed", because it hasn't changed one bit. The pope is declared as infallible, which means he cannot make error, and all doctrines and teachings no matter how old still exist in the church. Take indulgences as an example. Martin Luther exposed this doctrine as wrong and wicked hundreds of years ago, but this doctrine still continues in Catholic Churches today! See the following blasphemous quotes from this church.

Pope Declared as "God on Earth"

"The Pope is not simply the representative of Jesus Christ. On the contrary, he is Jesus Christ Himself, under the veil of the flesh." (Evangelical Christendom, January 1, 1895, pg. 15, published in London by J. S. Phillips)

"Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'THE LORD POPE', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH'." (Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation on the Consecrated Life and Its Mission in the Church and in the World, to the bishops and clergy, religious orders and congregations, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, and all the faithful, given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, March 25, 1996)

"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God and the vicar of God." (Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary)

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous)

"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII Cum inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions." (Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958)
 
This is why Christ is equal to God in certain scriptures.

Pope is God on Earth​

April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288​

“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.​

“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap​

Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."​

Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para​

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."​

Catholic National, July 1895​

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"​

Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894​

Pope John Paul II:​

"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ." (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter's and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L'Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)​

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble​

Pope Nicholas:​

“I am in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Viccar of God, have both one consistory. And I am able to do almost all that God can do. I then being above all, seem by this reason to be above all gods.” Source: “The Church Historians of England: Reformation Period” by Josiah Pratt, 1856, p 159​

Nicholas also claimed that the Popes had the power to change the gospel itself, “Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Source: “Ibid”, Pratt, p 159​

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."​

On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17​

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."​

Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"​

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.​

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."​

Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."​

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."​

Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.​

Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is​

"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translation Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205​

We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5)​

"It must always be clear, when the expression sister churches is used in this proper sense that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not sister but mother of all the particular churches"​

-- Cardinal Ratzinger.​

Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.​

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....FURTHERMORE WE DECLARE, STATE AND DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS THAT THEY SUBMIT TO THE​

ROMAN PONTIFF [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino​

esse de necessitate salutis]."​

That doesn't work either. ( I don't derive my theology from the popes).

I take it you have no answer for post #50?

If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jesus is using the same title as God does in Isaiah. There can't be two Firsts and Lasts.
 
That doesn't work either. ( I don't derive my theology from the popes).

I take it you have no answer for post #50?

If Jesus is not God, how is He also the first and last?

Isaiah 44:6 CSB
This is what the LORD, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the LORD of Armies, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me.

Revelation 22:12-13 CSB
"Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to repay each person according to his work. [13] I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

Jesus is using the same title as God does in Isaiah. There can't be two Firsts and Lasts.
Anytime scriptures contradict each other, that is a sure sign there is a problem.
 
Anytime scriptures contradict each other, that is a sure sign there is a problem.
I'm, glad you are at least admitting you are in contradiction with Scripture.
God's Word doesn't lie...we do.
 
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