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Children's ministries as easy targets or true outreach (re neo-orthodoxy)

Perhaps you would, perhaps you wouldn't. That's the point. The author was writing to an ancient culture in terms and language they understood. We can't just take that and try to fit it into our 21st century modern thinking. It doesn't work and it creates distortions and misses the points the author is making.

"The point they are making"
You do realize that many OT authors are making exactly that point? it was historical, it happened in space-time, it responded to the categories of danger, risk, etc, that we have all had through all of history. It was not fantasy or myth. It addressed 'science' as they knew it. And they did. Schaeffer has essays on this, if you look, like "No Final Conflict."
 
"The point they are making"
You do realize that many OT authors are making exactly that point? it was historical, it happened in space-time, it responded to the categories of danger, risk, etc, that we have all had through all of history. It was not fantasy or myth. It addressed 'science' as they knew it. And they did. Schaeffer has essays on this, if you look, like "No Final Conflict."

I'm quite sure an ancient person had fear of falling from dangerous heights, gravity, drowning, etc, even if they did not have 'physics/Newtonian' formulas to express it all in details.
 
Perhaps you would, perhaps you wouldn't. That's the point. The author was writing to an ancient culture in terms and language they understood. We can't just take that and try to fit it into our 21st century modern thinking. It doesn't work and it creates distortions and misses the points the author is making.

After giving a survey of Dan 2 yesterday, I wondered what kind of literature you thought it was and then whether Gen 1-11 was the same.
 
"The point they are making"
You do realize that many OT authors are making exactly that point? it was historical, it happened in space-time, it responded to the categories of danger, risk, etc, that we have all had through all of history. It was not fantasy or myth. It addressed 'science' as they knew it. And they did. Schaeffer has essays on this, if you look, like "No Final Conflict."
Genesis 1 is about God ordering creation as His Cosmic temple.
"Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool;" ~ Isaiah 66:1
It is about God having authority over all creation, including chaos and darkness. The earth wasn't formed by some battle among the gods like other ancient near eastern cultures thought, but was made by the One True God. He made mankind in His image to rule on His behalf.
You can look to try to equate each part of Genesis 1 with some modern scientific view (like plate tectonics, etc.) if you like, but if any of that is there (and I don't think it is), it pales into insignificance when looking at the power and majesty of our Creator displayed in this passage.
 
I'm quite sure an ancient person had fear of falling from dangerous heights, gravity, drowning, etc, even if they did not have 'physics/Newtonian' formulas to express it all in details.
Of course they did. But we don't go looking to the Bible to tell us about gravity and so on.
 
After giving a survey of Dan 2 yesterday, I wondered what kind of literature you thought it was and then whether Gen 1-11 was the same.
No, it is not the same as Gen 1-11. Nothing is quite like Genesis 1-11. I think that is why we struggle so much to properly understand it - because it is written in a type of literature that is completely foreign to us today.
 
Genesis 1 is about God ordering creation as His Cosmic temple.
"Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool;" ~ Isaiah 66:1
It is about God having authority over all creation, including chaos and darkness. The earth wasn't formed by some battle among the gods like other ancient near eastern cultures thought, but was made by the One True God. He made mankind in His image to rule on His behalf.
You can look to try to equate each part of Genesis 1 with some modern scientific view (like plate tectonics, etc.) if you like, but if any of that is there (and I don't think it is), it pales into insignificance when looking at the power and majesty of our Creator displayed in this passage.

When we first see earth , it is dark, watery and unformed. Tohu wa-bohu means a thing has been destroyed in a judgement . As you may know from passages in 2 Peter and Jude, God confined rebellious angels/demons in such places, called the blackness of darkness.

The 2 P passage even uses the term Tartarus from Greek cosmology. As always world legends are a few steps disintegrated from Genesis.

Our world now after the cataclysm does exist on top of the destruction of a previous demonic stage; the question is whether it originally did. In Ps 104 it is difficult to tell which one he means as he looks back.
 
When we first see earth , it is dark, watery and unformed. Tohu wa-bohu means a thing has been destroyed in a judgement .
Tohu wa-bohu means empty wasteland, formless void. It gives the idea of an uninhabitable land. In the ancient near east, darkness and water (like the sea/ocean) were linked with the idea of chaos. It was from this that God brought order. Tohu wa-bohu does not mean destroyed in a judgement. I am not sure where you get that idea from. The only other place both words are used together is in Jeremiah, but where the land is indeed make desolate as a result of judgement, but there is nothing to say this is a requirement. Can you show any Scripture that suggests there was a war in Heaven before Creation?

As you may know from passages in 2 Peter and Jude, God confined rebellious angels/demons in such places, called the blackness of darkness.
Both 2 Peter and Jude are referring to 1 Enoch - to the sin of the Watchers. This is a story about the angels that came to earth and took human women as wives (as in Genesis 6) with their children being the Nephilim/Rephaim.

The 2 P passage even uses the term Tartarus from Greek cosmology. As always world legends are a few steps disintegrated from Genesis.
I Enoch is a story that all 1st century Jews would have known. It was part of their culture. But 1 Enoch is not inspired Scripture.

Our world now after the cataclysm does exist on top of the destruction of a previous demonic stage; the question is whether it originally did. In Ps 104 it is difficult to tell which one he means as he looks back.
Well since I don't believe that the was a rebellion before the start of Genesis 1 and I don't believe the flood was a global flood, I obviously don't agree with what you wrote here.
 
Of course they did. But we don't go looking to the Bible to tell us about gravity and so on.

That’s bc there is or was no need for further detail than it went. You make it sound like they were totally unaware.

Btw there is evidence all around that the skills of the higher entities that were on earth were higher than what we can do today in certain ways.
 
No, it is not the same as Gen 1-11. Nothing is quite like Genesis 1-11. I think that is why we struggle so much to properly understand it - because it is written in a type of literature that is completely foreign to us today.

But not symbolic. When there is symbolism , it is clearly that. The Rev is far more unfamiliar than early Gen. There are tables of kings and nations elsewhere. There is structural detail in Genesis about the ship that is totally missed in other accounts. But standard in the West.

Not “completely foreign” at all.
 
Btw it is much more common to find a god victorious over a huge lizard in ancient culture than over other gods. He then makes earth from the shredding and pulverizing of that creature. It’s in Hebrew, Persian, Hindi, Egyptian , Makah (pacific NW), etc. Walter and Wakefield are two scholars I know of on that.
 
Tohu wa-bohu means empty wasteland, formless void. It gives the idea of an uninhabitable land. In the ancient near east, darkness and water (like the sea/ocean) were linked with the idea of chaos. It was from this that God brought order. Tohu wa-bohu does not mean destroyed in a judgement. I am not sure where you get that idea from. The only other place both words are used together is in Jeremiah, but where the land is indeed make desolate as a result of judgement, but there is nothing to say this is a requirement. Can you show any Scripture that suggests there was a war in Heaven before Creation?


Both 2 Peter and Jude are referring to 1 Enoch - to the sin of the Watchers. This is a story about the angels that came to earth and took human women as wives (as in Genesis 6) with their children being the Nephilim/Rephaim.


I Enoch is a story that all 1st century Jews would have known. It was part of their culture. But 1 Enoch is not inspired Scripture.


Well since I don't believe that the was a rebellion before the start of Genesis 1 and I don't believe the flood was a global flood, I obviously don't agree with what you wrote here.

Tartarus is not from 1 Enoch. It is where the Titans were sent as punishment.

The Jer 4 judgement backdrop is the reason for applying judgement to Gen 1s backdrop.

What hydrologic conditions have to occur to have “the mega-flora of Alaska was suddenly encased in Mile-deep ice”? (—a quote from the state of Alaska museum). Can this be done without a global event? How exactly? There are many such instances. Bretz always meant he was aware of the global scale of his findings and that is why suppressive ‘science’ since the mid 1800s shut him down. And why science is a highly manipulated realm today.
 
One reason that denying a global flood is meaningless to me is from multi-disciplinary statements I find all the time: what, really, would be the globe back then? I continually find continents, magnetics, hydrology, etc in such a different form prior to the cataclysm that there is no meaningful comparison. I've even read that it was not the same size, that it was formerly smaller, that our continents are now further from the center through the expansion and cooling of solid magmatics that support them, that there are subterranean oceans. This is not foreign to the Bible, either.

The known world (land) was one cohesive piece back then so that egomaniacs truly could seek domination, and after the cataclysm, the same folks were unaware of entirely detached continents. See Boorstin's history of exploration in THE DISCOVERERS. China did not explore anything for that reason; they already were the one world. Conversely, the middle ages of the West expected an easy connection of east and west; they were in part going on descriptions of one single pangea from before the cataclysm. But when navigators details came back in and the remote view of many continents was drawn out by, for ex., Pellegrini, it was obvious that the whole pangea had been split apart like orange peeling that attempts to do it in one piece.

Palms are buried under deserts; ocean shorelines intact are 1000 ft down in Alaska; there is vegetation encased under the poles; there has been ice at the mouth of Glacier Bay AK as recently as 1760. When that figure is compared to the glacial moguls just south of Olympia WA, on a per-year-retreating basis, there was ice covering Seattle a few thousand ago. There are features all over the place of crust layers being bent over backwards, and of removals. Removals are when the features of a landscape (Grand, 4 Corners) were not built up, but already "up" and removed "down" elsewhere, sometimes thousands of miles. We see the remnant. Things are highly contorted and that was recent. Our hydrologic beliefs must conform.

I find that the expression 'the flood was not global' to be an unthinking entrenchment of gradualism with Ms of years to spend in its bank account.

I believe the Biblical position to be that while the distant universe was 'from of old' (ouranoi...ekpalai, 2 P 3), the earth, its celestial system, and the cataclysm were more recent acts of formation (ge ex hudatos kai di' hudatos sunestosa) 2 P 3), a term borrowed from pottery. Be assured, I get rejected trying to explain that one to YECs!!! Yet it does not validate gradualism nor evolution at all; it simply says there are two theaters, each with their own time scenario.

By the way, the phrase modifying the pottery-formation is theou logo, which is always a very quick event, that I know of, because it is a verbal command. This is also found, for comparison sake outside of cosmology, at the end of Romans where it was the decree (epitagan) of God that the Gentiles believe the Gospel, which we find happening in several sudden events, but even taken collectively is just a few decades. The same epitagan made it clear that this was already embedded in the prophets. Again, each individual explanation of the embedding of that would be sudden, but collectively a few decades are meant.
 
An additional question since you appear to be in Australia: isn’t the Centralia (Aus) theory itself one of these massive removals mentioned just above?
 
But not symbolic. When there is symbolism , it is clearly that.
I didn't call Genesis symbolic.

The Rev is far more unfamiliar than early Gen.
Revelation is steeped in the Old Testament.

There are tables of kings and nations elsewhere.
Yes, there is - which I find interesting.

There is structural detail in Genesis about the ship that is totally missed in other accounts.
Actually there isn't a lot of structural detail in Genesis - certainly not enough to re-construct the ark. Also the word translated as 'ark' is also very interesting. It means coffin or shrine - not ship or boat.

But standard in the West.

Not “completely foreign” at all.
 
Tartarus is not from 1 Enoch. It is where the Titans were sent as punishment.

The Jer 4 judgement backdrop is the reason for applying judgement to Gen 1s backdrop.
Why would you do that?

What hydrologic conditions have to occur to have “the mega-flora of Alaska was suddenly encased in Mile-deep ice”? (—a quote from the state of Alaska museum). Can this be done without a global event? How exactly? There are many such instances. Bretz always meant he was aware of the global scale of his findings and that is why suppressive ‘science’ since the mid 1800s shut him down. And why science is a highly manipulated realm today.
I am not going to argue with you about this. Again, even though I believe the evidence for a global flood is non-existent, if it is shown to me that I am wrong, it wouldn't matter - it won't change how I read the passage because the extent of the flood is not what is important in the passage.
 
Why would you do that?


I am not going to argue with you about this. Again, even though I believe the evidence for a global flood is non-existent, if it is shown to me that I am wrong, it wouldn't matter - it won't change how I read the passage because the extent of the flood is not what is important in the passage.

The whole known works was evil and contaminated by para-normal humans. Does that extent matter?
 
I don’t know how you can miss the structural detail of the ark, same word as the testament box later—to record that a message was declared.

See the life size replica built in Tennessee. I doubt there was any rounding. But it was 600 foot long. The boxiness would stabilize it like the outer keels that “primitive” Vikings used.
 
Why would you do that?


I am not going to argue with you about this. Again, even though I believe the evidence for a global flood is non-existent, if it is shown to me that I am wrong, it wouldn't matter - it won't change how I read the passage because the extent of the flood is not what is important in the passage.

I have no more idea what this means than last time. I don’t know anyone who thinks this way unless they want to pretend to control that which is beyond them. You don’t accept what the narrative says it is about itself. What hope then is there of arriving at what it means?
 
Re Tohu wa-bohu
We must follow established lexical method! Rabbi Cassuto validated it as I recall, the scholar who took down the secular German text theory JEOD—4 sources complied after the return from exile to re-unite the nation.
 
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