Calvin Predeterminism: Pagan fate and fatalism

[Ghada]

If Calvin did not preach living righteously, then I give him more credit than he deserves.

You're starting to tangle things up here.

So you say.

So, are you claiming man has the ability to do these things? So, man can cast away all his transgressions? Man can make himself a new heart and spirit?

You're quoting God, not me.

I bet you don't understand the difference between predestination and fatalism.

Between Calvin's predestination and pagan fatlism's predestination, there is none other than Calvin corrupting the name of Christ.

Calvin calls it God's predestination and choosing of who will be created to do good and who will be created to do evil. The pagans called it fate of 'Fortune's favorites' or life's slaves.

Today they call it being loser's in life's lottery.

And how is this anything like predestination?

If you don't know of Calvin's predestination and prechoosing of God who will go on to life or destruction, then you need to learn it in order to see how it is a foolish and destructive Christian version of pagan falalism.

If you do know Calvin's destructive predestination theory, and don't choosing to see the likeness of pagan fatalsim, then that's your own will and decision.

Really? Scripture teaches some are born to do good., others to do bad?

No, not Scripture's. You're going to have to understand I am exposing Calvin's predestination as reinvented pagan fatalism in the name of Christ.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


If I am in error about Calvin's determination and prechoosing of who will and will not be saved, then show it, and if true, I'll correct it.

That goes for the fatalism of old pagan fate.

Is this predestination?

Yes, Calvin's.

That's what being created in God's image means.

True.

It seems more like you're suggesting all men are little gods.

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

Jesus acknowledges all men are gods, being created in the image of God. Angels also are called the sons of God, with the same created power to choose good or evil.

It's why some angels have chosen to do evil, and all men have chosen to sin at some time in life.

Being as gods in an evil way are all angels that sin, and any man that sins and repents not. That's especially for those who declare for themselves what is good or evil, and true or false, in order to justify their continued disobedience to the true God.

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Calvin had to do away with free will?

Since you're not afamiliar with Calvin teachings, you need to read up on how his teachers also say man has no free will to choose to do good or evil.

It's a necessary part of pagan fatialism of God predestining who will be His favorites or enemies at creation.

God's omniscient foreknolwedge of angels and men, is foreseeing what all angels and men do, not predetermining what all angels and men do.

By not doing God's will, as all other creatures assuredly do, angels and men prove we have power to do our own will, and not God's/

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

Of our own lust is our own will to do evil.

All by free choice?

Of course. Since God doesn't make anyone do evil, and 'the devil made me do it' is a lie.

Some even try to blame it on their own hapless bodies, as though the sinning comes from the flesh, and not from the soul with the flesh.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 

[Carbon]

If Calvin did not preach living righteously, then I give him more credit than he deserves.

So you say.



You're quoting God, not me.


Between Calvin's predestination and pagan fatlism's predestination, there is none other than Calvin corrupting the name of Christ.

Calvin calls it God's predestination and choosing of who will be created to do good and who will be created to do evil. The pagans called it fate of 'Fortune's favorites' or life's slaves.

Today they call it being loser's in life's lottery.



If you don't know of Calvin's predestination and prechoosing of God who will go on to life or destruction, then you need to learn it in order to see how it is a foolish and destructive Christian version of pagan falalism.

If you do know Calvin's destructive predestination theory, and don't choosing to see the likeness of pagan fatalsim, then that's your own will and decision.




No, not Scripture's. You're going to have to understand I am exposing Calvin's predestination as reinvented pagan fatalism in the name of Christ.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


If I am in error about Calvin's determination and prechoosing of who will and will not be saved, then show it, and if true, I'll correct it.

That goes for the fatalism of old pagan fate.




Yes, Calvin's.

True.


For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

Jesus acknowledges all men are gods, being created in the image of God. Angels also are called the sons of God, with the same created power to choose good or evil.

It's why some angels have chosen to do evil, and all men have chosen to sin at some time in life.

Being as gods in an evil way are all angels that sin, and any man that sins and repents not. That's especially for those who declare for themselves what is good or evil, and true or false, in order to justify their continued disobedience to the true God.

And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.



Since you're not afamiliar with Calvin teachings, you need to read up on how his teachers also say man has no free will to choose to do good or evil.

It's a necessary part of pagan fatialism of God predestining who will be His favorites or enemies at creation.

God's omniscient foreknolwedge of angels and men, is foreseeing what all angels and men do, not predetermining what all angels and men do.

By not doing God's will, as all other creatures assuredly do, angels and men prove we have power to do our own will, and not God's/

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

Of our own lust is our own will to do evil.




Of course. Since God doesn't make anyone do evil, and 'the devil made me do it' is a lie.

Some even try to blame it on their own hapless bodies, as though the sinning comes from the flesh, and not from the soul with the flesh.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

It's obvious you do not know much about Calvinism.

 

[Ghada]

Fatalism is not Calvinism. Calvin never denied the existence of free will.

Then you're not listening to the Calvinists that are denying free will.

Which of course is necessary to preach who God chooses to be saved or destroyed before being created.

So gross in the substance of its misrepresentation that it goes beyond straw man AND red herring to blatant falsehood.

Falsehood about Calvinism.

Well, so long as it's not the Bible lied about, then I'm cool with it.

We live in the digital age. That means ANYONE can own an electronic copy of Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion," and the within seconds, discover Calvin used the phrase "free will" in his book more than six dozen times!

Do you have no more sense of contextual honesty? Have you thrown overboard even gradeschool comprehension, just to believe your own oft-vaunted scholarship?

"But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion,"

He preaches only Adam was created with free will, and exercised it to choose to do good or evil. But now after the 'fall' of man, we are created with free will, but do not have it to exercise as Adam before sinning.

It's lip-service to God's creation of man in His image. Unmlike Adam, 'fallen' man has no free will to choose to do good or evil nor to repent of doing evil, and do the good. It's an ameteurish petty distinction without a difference: man is indeed created with free will by God as Adam, but has no free will to choose to do good or evil as Adam.

It's the necessary precurser for his paganist predeterminism and prechoosing by God, for who will do evil without repentance, and who will repent unto life.

But, I love how the Bible always exposes the lying hyposcrisies of all false teaching about the Bible.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Calvin gives lip-serivce to man's creation with free will in the image of God, but then unlike Adam, man loses that gift coming into the world.

The Bible says othrwise. Man is still created with free will of God as Adam, and still comes into the world lightened by Christ as Adam.

Every child still has the free will to choose to do good or evil, just as Adam and Eve. No man has ever lost the gift of God's free will.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

He gave it to Adam to exercise for his own life with God or death, and does so today for every child born into the world.

In other words, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for even remotely insinuating Calvin denied free will or suggesting fatalism has anything to do with Calvin's teachings.

You show willingness distort Calvin's own words, even as the Bible, just to keep your own imagination.

Calvin believed humanity was endowed with free will. He believed the freedom of the will was lost due to sin, not God making humans without free will.

As I said. His lip service to God still creating man with free will, but coming into the world without it.

I wonder if Calvin also taught the sin-nature thingy as reason for all men sinning.

 

[Ghada]

It's obvious you do not know much about Calvinism.

Aghast!

I'm learning more about him though. I now see he taught the trifecta of unrighteous salvation and justification without Christ:

Not only does he teach no predestinated pagan fatalism, but also no free will for man from the womb. And the real stunning surporse is also faith alone salvation, without justification by works!

I always thought he had a reputation for preaching living righteously and holy in all manners of life. Must have been lip-service at best.

If we don't need to do good to be justified with Christ, then who needs salvation from sinning?

 

[Carbon]

I'm learning more about him though. I now see he taught the trifecta of unrighteous salvation and justification without Christ:

Whatever your learning from is stunting your growth. That's not true about Calvin.

Not only does he teach no predestinated pagan fatalism, but also no free will for man from the womb. And the real stunning surporse is also faith alone salvation, without justification by works!

Ha, no idea what you're talking about.

I always thought he had a reputation for preaching living righteously and holy in all manners of life. Must have been lip-service at best.

If we don't need to do good to be justified with Christ, then who needs salvation from sinning?

Enjoy yourself.

 

[Josheb]

When people don't take God's words seriously in prophecy, neither will they in doctrine.........................................................................................................................................................

The facts in evidence are not being addressed. Horrible, baseless, unproven things were posted in the op. They are indefensible. They have nothing to do with Calvin or his teachings and the mods should be asked to delete the op.

Exodus 20:16
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

.

 

[Josheb]

True.

Then the op is incorrect.


The facts in evidence are not being addressed. Horrible, baseless, unproven things were posted in the op. They are indefensible. They have nothing to do with Calvin or his teachings and the mods should be asked to delete the op.

Exodus 20:16
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

.

 

[Josheb]

Seriously? False teachers do not qualify their teaching, as manipulation of Scripture.

Calvin's predestination of who will be created unto salvation, created unto destruction doctrine, is a derailed scholar's effort to answer why some sinners do repent, and others do not.

He's basically applying the reason why angels cannot repent, to men that choose not to.

We see in Scripture that no angel that sins, has any space to repent.

God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The facts in evidence are not being addressed. Horrible, baseless, unproven things were posted in the op. They are indefensible. They have nothing to do with Calvin or his teachings and the mods should be asked to delete the op.

Exodus 20:16
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

.

 

[Josheb]

Then you're not listening to the Calvinists that are denying free will.

No, you're not listening to them.

Just because someone claiming to be a Calvinist denies free will does not mean they are Calvinists. In other words, both of you are wrong!!!!! Don't assume someone claiming to be Calvinist has correctly asserted Calvinism! Strict determinism is no more Calvinist than Pelagianism is Arminianism. You'd know that if any Calvin had been read. The fact is I posted Calvin's views from Calvin's own words to demonstrate the errors in the op. The correct response it, "My bad, I guess I should verify my facts before baselessly posting false accusations about things for which I know nothing...... Thank you for the information, Josh." But that is NOT the response.

The facts in evidence are not being addressed. Horrible, baseless, unproven things were posted in the op. They are indefensible. They have nothing to do with Calvin or his teachings and the mods should be asked to delete the op.

Exodus 20:16
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

.

Jesus said, "The truth will set you free."
@Ghada says, "No, Jesus believed the truth would not set you free. He believed it would enslave anyone who believed it."
Calvin said, "we do not admit the term Fate, both because it is of the class of which Paul teaches us to shun, as profane novelties, and also because it is attempted, by means of an odious term, to fix a stigma on the truth of God. But the dogma itself is falsely and maliciously imputed to us."
@Ghada says, "Calvin gives lip-serivce to man's creation with free will in the image of God."

Wretched op.

It's obvious you do not know much about Calvinism.

Listen to him, @Ghada. This op has NOTHING to do with Calvinism.

 

[Ghada]

Calvinism has nothing to do with the pagan view of the fates and the determinism of fate.

"Those who would cast obloquy on this doctrine, calumniate it as the dogma of the Stoics concerning fate. The same charge was formerly brought against Augustine. We are unwilling to dispute about the words; but we do not admit the term Fate, both because it is of the class of which Paul teaches us to shun, as profane novelties, and also because it is attempted, by means of an odious term, to fix a stigma on the truth of God. But the dogma itself is falsely and maliciously imputed to us. ​

Ha! This is great. I'm not the first one accusing Calvin of teaching pagan fatalism. And he acts churlishly indignant the same as others by just denying such blasphemy against his most scholarly self. He doesn't at all prove it, by simply teaching free will of man today from the Bible.

I see such learned debate skills from others: When anyone shows the Bible contradicts the teaching, and exposes it for what it is, then just deny, deny, deny, and then deny most vehemently. Without refuting it by just teaching otherwise.

It's the same as those who justify themselves while sinning, but indignatnly delcare they are not justifying their sinning.

This kind of more scholarly-than-thou petulance comes from being exposed for what they are truly teaching, when stripped of all their theo-speak and pretty speeches.

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

For we do not with the Stoics imagine a necessity consisting of a perpetual chain of causes, and a kind of involved series contained in nature, but we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, - that from the remotest eternity, according to His own wisdom,​

He doesn't even show how he doesn't teach against free will, by just teaching free will of man from the Bible. At least he's not an ignorant hypocrite like some, who forgets he specifically said free will for man today is delusional doctrine.

Some people teach one thing at one time, and then the exact opposite another time, as if they just make things up that sounds good at the time.

What he does is bypasses the whole free will issue, and Instead goes on to teach a twisted way of leading into the pagan doctrine of no free will for man.

He decreed what He was to do, and now by His power executes what He decreed." (Book 1; Chapter 16)​

God has indeed decreed what He will surely do, and performs His own will in heaven and on earth. And that has nothing to do with man also having free will of purpose to do so on earth.

Calvin perverts the truth of God doing all things as He decrees, into God decreeing what all men will do before creation, whether unto life or destruction. And then compounds the accusation against God, that He will ensure each man does exactly what He has already fatally decreed.

That is a Christianized modernizing of the decreed will of the pagan fates for all men. And now that I see it from Calvin's own words, I will use his words as he does.

Calvin's predeterminism is by God's decree of what every man will do on earth, and ensures it comes to pass as He purposed before the world began.

And so, with those decreed to sin unto death, we have God being the tempter of men that do evil, as well as the power willing them to do so: the god of this world and prince of the power of the air...the spirit that is now working in the children of disobedience:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death

 

[Ghada]

The facts in evidence are not being addressed.

Nor the things you say at one time, and then ignore later.

Horrible, baseless, unproven things were posted in the op. They are indefensible.

Next think you know, I'll be teaching against Augustine.

They have nothing to do with Calvin or his teachings and the mods should be asked to delete the op.

And the final move of wannabe dominators of faith. Get rid of the dissenters!

Delete something for teaching against Calvin? They don't even do that for teaching against the Bible, except for calling Jesus accursed.

They do hear complaints for teaching something about others, that others never said. But that's your M.O., Not mine.

I don;t try to silence dissenters, because many times I learn more of Bible truth by being corrected, or accurately correcting their errors.

Only them that resent correction, seek to silence dissent of what they want to believe.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother...

 

[Ghada]

Calvin never did away with free will.

Not with lip service to God creating man with it, but certainly doing away from practicing it after the manner of Adam.

"But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion,"

Calvin explained why some do evil and some do good but nowhere is a single word Calvin ever wrote found anywhere in this op.

You directed me to a good source for his words, as well as providing his own quotes exposing him for fatalist predeterminism.

There are some that certainly agree today on this sight, that Calvin does so. You want to silence them to?

You even provide proof other Christians of the day already accused him of it.

You going to have them posthumously barred from repeating such blasphemy against your Calvin?

The entire op is a series of baseless false accusation.

You're the one ignoring Calvin's own words, not me. I want to hear more of them to see where he went wrong. If he were here, he would be scourging you for saying he teaches there is free will for all men on earth today, as there was with Adam.

"But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion,"

Whether the teaching is true or not, I at least acknowledge exactly what is being taught, before agreeing or disagreeing from the Bible.

Got scripture for that?

"Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read..."

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Shall a man choose gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

 

[Ghada]

Is it good and acceptable to accuse others without evidence?

Rebuking doctrines of others, is not accusing others of evil living.

Only people with chips on the shoulders get offended when their beliefs are corrected.

I have learned that is especially the case with sinful Christians, that justify themselves by their doctrinal salvation by faith alone, that is always set apart from their works.

Since their entire life trusts solely in their doctrine justifying them from condemnation of their sinful works, then their consciences depend on not having their doctrine being corrected in any way.

They take any challenge to their doctrine as a personal attack on their soul. I don't take things so personally, because my conscience isn't pricked by doctrinal challenges, but only by my own deeds.

 

[Ghada]

3 things I did not know about Calvin, before being shown his own words:

"Those who would cast obloquy on this doctrine, calumniate it as the dogma of the Stoics concerning fate. The same charge was formerly brought against Augustine. We are unwilling to dispute about the words; but we do not admit the term Fate, both because it is of the class of which Paul teaches us to shun, as profane novelties, and also because it is attempted, by means of an odious term, to fix a stigma on the truth of God. But the dogma itself is falsely and maliciously imputed to us.

Calvin was accused of Christianizing old pagan fatalism, by teaching God decrees how all men will live, before being created.

But those who, while they profess to be the disciples of Christ, still seek for free-will in man, notwithstanding of his being lost and drowned in spiritual destruction, labour under manifold delusion,

Calvin called the doctrine of man having free will on earth, a delusion.

"This power and office of the intellect and will in man before the fall. Man's free will." (chapter 15 of Book 1).

Calvin taught man could exercise free will on earth, only before Adam sinned. After Adam's transgression and man's 'fall', no man has any free will to exercise on earth as Adam did, before he disobeyed God.

The Christians of his own day and today are correct about Calvin's predetermism revitamping old dead pagan fatalism in Christian garb.

Calvin teaches that God decrees beforehand, how everyone will live on earth unto the end, whether for good or evil. And He will also ensure His predetermined will is done by every person on earth.

This is by decree and practice the old dead power of the pagan fatalist fates: determining the fated lives of every person on earth, with power to see that all people act according to their predetermined purposes. The 'fates' were all-powerful, so that even the Gods had to bow to them, because they also were subject to their predetermined will.

It was a very old lie of the devil against the true God and Creator of heaven and earth. And it has been revitalized by Calvin in Christian form.

It enslaves men to the will of someone before them, and more powerful than them, who already decreed how they could and would act and live. It causes people to accept their 'lot' in life, and just leave it up the 'fates' as to their own outcome. For those favored in life, they count themselves blessed, and for those ill-favored in life, they count themselves cursed.

It was first rebuked by Gen 1 teaching all men everywhere are created in the image of the true God, with free will to choose how we will behave in life, whether good or evil. It was also exposed as a lie by the book of Job.

And now we have Calvin and his followers to thank for such old predeternmined decrees of men's personal lives. Christains wanting to believe it for their own good, then believe they are fated by decree of the Lord forever to be saved unto life, without having any choice in the matter, and to the exclusion of how they live.

And there are even Christians believing it for their own evil, that then believe they cannot repent of their sinning now today, because they don't know if they are one of God's favorites chosen from the foundation of the world.

 

[Josheb]

Ha! This is great. I'm not the first one accusing Calvin of teaching pagan fatalism. And he acts churlishly indignant............

The salient fact is evidence has been provided proving Calvin did not teach what the op says and now that proof is being mocked and ad hominem employed.


You are trolling. I bid you adieu.

 

[Ghada]

The salient fact is evidence has been provided proving Calvin did not teach what the op says and now that proof is being mocked and ad hominem employed.

You're the only one ignoring Calvin's words that I have quoted to you twice.

You're one of those hounding followers, that only address someone to disagree with them, and deny Bible words to do so.

And in this case, even Calvin's own words about saying the doctrine of man having free will today, is a delusion.

You are trolling. I bid you adieu.

Trolls butt into conversations of others just to be a pest.

Responding to trolls is a courtesy that only lasts so long.