Boudaries

[prism]

Where are the boundaries between antinomianism and living within God's grace?
When does freedom in Christ become libertine license?
Are we to have boundaries, or because we are under grace, nope?

 

[Hazelelponi]

"Most men love to hear of the doctrine of grace, of the pardon of sin, of free love, and suppose they find food therein; however, it is evident that they grow and thrive in the life and notion of them. But to be breaking up the fallow ground of their hearts, to be inquiring after the weeds and briars that grow in them, they delight not so much, though this be no less necessary than the other. This path is not so beaten as that of grace, nor so trod in, though it be the only way to come to a true knowledge of grace itself.
—John Owen, Overcoming Sin and Temptation, p. 282

Many in our day speak freely of grace—of forgiveness, freedom, and the love of God—and they are not wrong to do so. But there is a danger, and it is not new. It is the danger of talking much of pardon while avoiding the piercing work of holiness. It is the error of enjoying the idea of being washed, without ever submitting to the cleansing of heart and life. This, Owen tells us, is not a true understanding of grace, but an illusion. True grace breaks the hard soil of the soul. It exposes the weeds. It kills sin. And it produces a harvest of holiness.

We are surrounded by voices that pit grace against obedience, as if Christ’s love were opposed to His Lordship. But the Scriptures know no such division. The same grace that pardons also sanctifies. The same cross that removes guilt also delivers from bondage. As Paul writes, “But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” (Romans 6:17–18)

This transformation is not optional. It begins the moment a sinner is born again. At regeneration, the dominion of sin is broken, the heart is made new, and a life begins that cannot be content with rebellion. “You also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus… For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” (Romans 6:11, 14).

This is not perfection, but direction. We still stumble, but we no longer stumble freely. Sin no longer sits on the throne. Christ does. The Spirit dwells within, not as a silent guest, but as a holy fire—grieving over sin, striving against it, and leading us in paths of righteousness. To claim grace while loving sin is not liberty—it is slavery in disguise. It is to deny the very power of grace. Antinomianism errs here: it treats justification as a standalone act, detached from the Spirit’s work in the soul. But biblical grace not only justifies—it sanctifies. And any gospel that denies this is not the gospel of Christ.

And what has God done to bring about this transformation? The answer is found in 1 Corinthians 6:11, where Paul looks at former sinners and says, “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

Grudem observes that the order here is crucial. They were not simply declared righteous—they were also made holy. The Spirit of God did not merely free them from the penalty of sin but began freeing them from its power. The verb “sanctified” is in the perfect tense in the Greek, meaning it is a past action with present consequences. They were made holy, and they continue in holiness.

This is what the gospel does. It washes. It justifies. It sanctifies. And it does all of this in the name of Jesus and by the Spirit, not by human striving.

But this process is not passive. Grace empowers obedience. Paul says, “Just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.” (Romans 6:19)

Grudem notes the comparison: just as... so now. You once gave yourself fully to sin—now give yourself fully to righteousness. The idea that grace produces no effort, no striving, no growth—this is foreign to Scripture. It is not legalism to obey. It is love.

And this love bears fruit over time. Peter exhorts believers to make every effort to add to their faith virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly affection, and love. And then he says, “If these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter 1:8)

Here is grace that bears fruit. Not a fruitless confession, but a Spirit-driven, growing holiness. Not perfection, but increase. Not merit, but maturity.

This is the grace we contend for—not only the grace that justifies, but the grace that transforms. And this grace has boundaries. It is not lawless. It is holy. And it comes from the throne of Christ Himself.

Before going any further, we must name the errors clearly. For whenever grace is truly preached—biblical, sovereign, soul-renewing grace—it is always met with two dangers: antinomianism on one side, and legalism on the other.

Antinomianism teaches that because we are saved by grace and not by law, obedience no longer matters. It claims that since Christ fulfilled the law, we are now free to live as we please. It may not always say it so bluntly, but it does live that way. It minimizes repentance. It softens holiness. It detaches Christ’s saving work from His sanctifying power.

Legalism, on the other hand, teaches that our standing with God depends on our obedience. It adds law to grace. It looks not to Christ’s finished work, but to our performance. It breeds pride in the strong and despair in the weak.

But the gospel rejects both. Grace is not freedom from holiness, nor is obedience the price of God’s favor. The grace that saves is the grace that sanctifies. It is Christ who justifies us by His blood, and Christ who purifies us by His Spirit.

As Paul writes, “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness…” (Titus 2:11–12) Not law, but grace—training us.

So the boundary is this:

• Grace is the free, sovereign gift of God that pardons sin and renews the heart.
• Antinomianism is the denial that this renewal is necessary.
• Legalism is the claim that our obedience earns God’s pardon.

Both are lies. Both miss the glory of the gospel. For the gospel declares: “It is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) God works in us. And we work out what He has worked in.

But perhaps as you read, you feel the weight of it. You see the holiness of God and the weakness of your own heart. You begin to wonder: Have I loved a false grace? Have I been content with forgiveness but refused transformation?

Then let me speak to you not only as a warning, but as a sister in Christ—one who knows the sharp edge of conviction, and the sweetness of the Savior’s mercy.

If these words trouble your heart, then take courage. The Spirit does not wound except to heal. If the weeds are being exposed, it is because the Gardener has drawn near. He does not cast away the trembling sinner. He welcomes all who come—broken, weary, even ashamed—so long as they come to Him.

Charles Spurgeon once wrote:

“The grace that does not change my life will not save my soul. But O what grace it is that makes the foulest clean, and the weakest strong!”

Yes—grace that saves is grace that changes. But this change is not your own doing. It is the work of the living Christ in you. If you have wandered, return. If you’ve grown cold, come near to the fire again. If you have pretended at grace while clinging to sin, then confess it—and flee to the One whose wounds still plead for sinners.

The gospel is not only the door—it is the path. Christ did not save us to leave us in Egypt. He brings us out to bring us in. And He will finish what He began. The one who died to forgive you also lives to sanctify you. And He is patient, powerful, and kind.

So let grace train you.
Let grace humble you.
Let grace make you holy.

And may it never be said of us that we loved pardon, but rejected purity.4)

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well I wasn't done editing I don't know why that posted.

I was hours away from posting so just forgive all the errors if any.

 

[Josheb]

Where are the boundaries between antinomianism and living within God's grace?
When does freedom in Christ become libertine license?
Are we to have boundaries, or because we are under grace, nope?

Hmmmmm..... two questions:

What do you think is the meaning, the definition of grace, its application and its boundaries?
What do you understand boundaries to mean, its definition and application?

 

[Arial]

Where are the boundaries between antinomianism and living within God's grace?
When does freedom in Christ become libertine license?
Are we to have boundaries, or because we are under grace, nope?

1. Antinomianism has no place within Christianity and God's grace has no boundaries. It is the church that has boundaries and they are found between the covers of the Bible.

2.Never.

3.Our boundaries are set by the word of God. Both morally and as to doctrine. Not as commands morally, but imperatives as his children. And this comes about by his working in us by the Holy Spirit to conform us to the image of Christ in obedience. The grace in that is that as we learn and grow, is that we were saved by grace and nothing can condemn us to take us out of his hands.

 

[ReverendRV]

Where are the boundaries between antinomianism and living within God's grace?
When does freedom in Christ become libertine license?
Are we to have boundaries, or because we are under grace, nope?

That's a tough one...

One person Keeps one Day, another person Keeps another Day. Perhaps Antinomians don't Keep a Day at all...

 

[prism]

What do you understand boundaries to mean, its definition and application?

Where one crosses into the other.I don't know the answers, thus I'm asking.

 

[Josheb]

What do you understand boundaries to mean, its definition and application

Where one crosses into the other. I don't know the answers, thus I'm asking.

That answers the second question asked.

Relationship boundaries have two functions: 1) they define what is right and what is wrong, and 2) they define who a person is and is not. I am not you and you am not me. That sentence is an example of the second function. A "boundary" is simply some sort of defined limit, like the fence around a piece of property or the fact a human cannot jump from a height and expect to defy gravity unaided.

I asked the first question first because the application of grace is limited. God is infinite and to the degree grace is an attribute of God, grace is also infinite. Grace being infinite does not mean it has limitless application. For example, God's grace has been applied to every human being in that they breath air and pump blood enough to live one life in spite of sin. God could have eradicated the entirety of human existence the minute Adam disobeyed Him in the garden. By grace he did not. God could have also, instead, wiped Adam and Eve clean from sin the very same moment as an alternative to eradication. That would have been an act of, and application of grace. Because God permitted humans to continue being born and those surviving birth to continue living a life until their inevitable physical death dead in sin - at which time they all face judgment - that grace allowing sinners to live one lifetime is limited. At the end of that lifetime, judgment is faced in a state of condemnation and destruction is the consequence........ unless God has also added another application of grace to the sinner. We call that application of grace that avoids the wrathful consequences of condemnation salvation.

In between birth and death there are a variety of other applications. One example would be graciously permitting poseurs, people who claim to be saved but, in fact, are not saved. Some of them are consciously lying powers and some of them are deluded poseurs (I think they are conscious of their delusion but for the sake of this op I'll allow some diversity thereof). God also allows a variety of maturity among those genuinely saved. People claiming to follow Cephas, Apollos, Jesus or Paul are divided and probably to some degree being divisive (is not the claim to follow one but not another implicitly competitive?), yet all are treated as authentic converts to Christ and not poseurs. Their authenticity is not question despite the fact disputatious, dissenting, factious people (Gal. 5:20) should not expect to inherit God's kingdom. The Galatians 5 passage pertaining to the works of the flesh is another example of the limits of God's grace.

Galatians 5 provides examples positive applications of grace and the limitations of grace worded as negatives within the state of grace known as salvation. A person who is not save could be loving, joyous, at peace, patient, etc. bout those iterations would not be fruit of God's Spirit. They would be fruit of flesh and although those conditions are not listed in the works of flesh in verses 19-21, they would, nonetheless still be works of flesh. This is one dividing line between antinomianism and grace. The exact same behavior could be manifested by the flesh or manifested by the Spirit but only that which is worked by the Spirit is grace.

One potential problem with the op's inquiry is that "antinomianism" literally means "no law" or "against law," and the simple fact is no human ever lives an absolutely lawless existence. No one on earth can jump of a tall building and avoid the law of gravity. No one can murder a person and avoid the consequence of that sin. No one can murder a person, and then another, and another and more and more and not suffer the consequences prescribed by God when He designed and the created creation. It is quite possible Jeff Dahmer was the happiest man who has ever lived...... for very brief moments of time. He gave in to his impulses. He fed his lusts. He felt the joy of sin for a season, and in so doing learned that sort of joy is exceedingly brief and the resulting dissatisfaction is worse than the previous version. There isn't an addict alive who does not know lust is never satisfied but we look like freshmen compared to Dahmer. He could not live absent any and all law. Creation is itself a construction of laws, and laws of many varieties (physical, moral, relational, existential, etc.).


I am me and you am not me. I do not have to think the way you think, feel the way you feel, choose the way you choose, or act the way you act, and the exact same facts apply to you in reverse Neither one of us has to think, feel, choose, or act what God thinks, feels, chooses, or acts but every departure has consequences. Antinomianism is, therefore, best understood as a spectrum, rather than a fixed point or line where on one side law exists and on the other side law does not exist. There is no place where law does not exist. This informs the theological position Christians are no longer bound by the Law of Moses, or the even more generalized notion we are no longer bound by any moral law. The Law of Moses was simply a specific kind of elaboration of 1) God's character, 2) a witness or testimony of the coming Messiah, and 3) sin. Because of the law of non-contradiction, scripture never contradicts itself. It is all a revelation of God by God about God, and the Law Maker did not stop being a Law Maker just because He saved a bunch of folks from sin.

The measure of our lawfulness simply changed, not God.


God could line us all up next to one another on judgment day and measure every single one of us by the Law of Moses. We'd all fail, and God would nonetheless grant us entrance into His kingdom because we're all covered with blood of Christ. The problem is we get measured by a much higher standard. We think we're blessed to no longer be measured by Sinai, but Calvary is a much more egregious, much more merciless measure. When God lines us all up before His throne and measures us against His resurrected Son we all still fail. It is by grace we are saved so, being covered in the blood of Christ a lot of law-breaking people get allowed into the kingdom. Poseurs act like they're covered in blood but they're not.

Where are the boundaries between antinomianism and living within God's grace?

No one can live an unchanged life and also live within God's grace.

When does freedom in Christ become libertine license?

Never.

Are we to have boundaries, or because we are under grace, nope?

A boundaryless existence does not exist.

Christians - real Christians, actual Christians, genuine Christians, authentic Christians - have been bought. No Christians is his own. Christians argue a lot of false dichotomies discussing theology but one of the real, truth, blunt, radically inescapable true dichotomies scripture asserts from beginning to end is there is only slavery, never autonomy, and a person is either a slave of sin or a slave of God's. Greater truths within that dichotomy are that...

1. The slave of sin is a minion who imagines himself free when he is nothing more than an animated corpse plodding through what he wrongly imagines is a life on his way to lawful destruction. Every moment of his existence serves only the will and purpose of God as a piece of refuse whose duration on earth is prescribed without his knowledge.
2. The slave of God is, alternative a servant empowered with the power and authority of his Master, and due to the nature of the purchase was, by grace, permitted and endowed with adoption so as to become a son (or daughter).

That is the law. No one escapes that nomiam.

The trouble is telling who is what from outside the throne is difficult, if not impossible, and any attempt to move God over to create space sufficient enough for any of us to sit there is against the law , an antinomian effort that fails (and might get a person killed).

 

[prism]

That answers the second question asked.

Relationship boundaries have two functions: 1) they define what is right and what is wrong, and 2) they define who a person is and is not. I am not you and you am not me. That sentence is an example of the second function. A "boundary" is simply some sort of defined limit, like the fence around a piece of property or the fact a human cannot jump from a height and expect to defy gravity unaided.

I asked the first question first because the application of grace is limited. God is infinite and to the degree grace is an attribute of God, grace is also infinite. Grace being infinite does not mean it has limitless application. For example, God's grace has been applied to every human being in that they breath air and pump blood enough to live one life in spite of sin. God could have eradicated the entirety of human existence the minute Adam disobeyed Him in the garden. By grace he did not. God could have also, instead, wiped Adam and Eve clean from sin the very same moment as an alternative to eradication. That would have been an act of, and application of grace. Because God permitted humans to continue being born and those surviving birth to continue living a life until their inevitable physical death dead in sin - at which time they all face judgment - that grace allowing sinners to live one lifetime is limited. At the end of that lifetime, judgment is faced in a state of condemnation and destruction is the consequence........ unless God has also added another application of grace to the sinner. We call that application of grace that avoids the wrathful consequences of condemnation salvation.

In between birth and death there are a variety of other applications. One example would be graciously permitting poseurs, people who claim to be saved but, in fact, are not saved. Some of them are consciously lying powers and some of them are deluded poseurs (I think they are conscious of their delusion but for the sake of this op I'll allow some diversity thereof). God also allows a variety of maturity among those genuinely saved. People claiming to follow Cephas, Apollos, Jesus or Paul are divided and probably to some degree being divisive (is not the claim to follow one but not another implicitly competitive?), yet all are treated as authentic converts to Christ and not poseurs. Their authenticity is not question despite the fact disputatious, dissenting, factious people (Gal. 5:20) should not expect to inherit God's kingdom. The Galatians 5 passage pertaining to the works of the flesh is another example of the limits of God's grace.

Galatians 5 provides examples positive applications of grace and the limitations of grace worded as negatives within the state of grace known as salvation. A person who is not save could be loving, joyous, at peace, patient, etc. bout those iterations would not be fruit of God's Spirit. They would be fruit of flesh and although those conditions are not listed in the works of flesh in verses 19-21, they would, nonetheless still be works of flesh. This is one dividing line between antinomianism and grace. The exact same behavior could be manifested by the flesh or manifested by the Spirit but only that which is worked by the Spirit is grace.

One potential problem with the op's inquiry is that "antinomianism" literally means "no law" or "against law," and the simple fact is no human ever lives an absolutely lawless existence. No one on earth can jump of a tall building and avoid the law of gravity. No one can murder a person and avoid the consequence of that sin. No one can murder a person, and then another, and another and more and more and not suffer the consequences prescribed by God when He designed and the created creation. It is quite possible Jeff Dahmer was the happiest man who has ever lived...... for very brief moments of time. He gave in to his impulses. He fed his lusts. He felt the joy of sin for a season, and in so doing learned that sort of joy is exceedingly brief and the resulting dissatisfaction is worse than the previous version. There isn't an addict alive who does not know lust is never satisfied but we look like freshmen compared to Dahmer. He could not live absent any and all law. Creation is itself a construction of laws, and laws of many varieties (physical, moral, relational, existential, etc.).


I am me and you am not me. I do not have to think the way you think, feel the way you feel, choose the way you choose, or act the way you act, and the exact same facts apply to you in reverse Neither one of us has to think, feel, choose, or act what God thinks, feels, chooses, or acts but every departure has consequences. Antinomianism is, therefore, best understood as a spectrum, rather than a fixed point or line where on one side law exists and on the other side law does not exist. There is no place where law does not exist. This informs the theological position Christians are no longer bound by the Law of Moses, or the even more generalized notion we are no longer bound by any moral law. The Law of Moses was simply a specific kind of elaboration of 1) God's character, 2) a witness or testimony of the coming Messiah, and 3) sin. Because of the law of non-contradiction, scripture never contradicts itself. It is all a revelation of God by God about God, and the Law Maker did not stop being a Law Maker just because He saved a bunch of folks from sin.

The measure of our lawfulness simply changed, not God.


God could line us all up next to one another on judgment day and measure every single one of us by the Law of Moses. We'd all fail, and God would nonetheless grant us entrance into His kingdom because we're all covered with blood of Christ. The problem is we get measured by a much higher standard. We think we're blessed to no longer be measured by Sinai, but Calvary is a much more egregious, much more merciless measure. When God lines us all up before His throne and measures us against His resurrected Son we all still fail. It is by grace we are saved so, being covered in the blood of Christ a lot of law-breaking people get allowed into the kingdom. Poseurs act like they're covered in blood but they're not.

No one can live an unchanged life and also live within God's grace.

Never.

A boundaryless existence does not exist.

Christians - real Christians, actual Christians, genuine Christians, authentic Christians - have been bought. No Christians is his own. Christians argue a lot of false dichotomies discussing theology but one of the real, truth, blunt, radically inescapable true dichotomies scripture asserts from beginning to end is there is only slavery, never autonomy, and a person is either a slave of sin or a slave of God's. Greater truths within that dichotomy are that...

1. The slave of sin is a minion who imagines himself free when he is nothing more than an animated corpse plodding through what he wrongly imagines is a life on his way to lawful destruction. Every moment of his existence serves only the will and purpose of God as a piece of refuse whose duration on earth is prescribed without his knowledge.
2. The slave of God is, alternative a servant empowered with the power and authority of his Master, and due to the nature of the purchase was, by grace, permitted and endowed with adoption so as to become a son (or daughter).

That is the law. No one escapes that nomiam.

The trouble is telling who is what from outside the throne is difficult, if not impossible, and any attempt to move God over to create space sufficient enough for any of us to sit there is against the law , an antinomian effort that fails (and might get a person killed).

whatever.