Augustine of Hippo: predestination is not opposed to preaching

[Carbon]

But they say that the “definition of predestination is opposed to the advantage of preaching,”—as if, indeed, it were opposed to the preaching of the apostle! Did not that teacher of the heathen so often, in faith and truth, both commend predestination, and not cease to preach the word of God?

Because he said, “It is God that worketh in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure,” did he not also exhort that we should both will and do what is pleasing to God? or because he said, “He who hath begun a good work in you shall carry it on even unto the day of Christ Jesus,” did he on that account cease to persuade men to begin and to persevere unto the end?

Doubtless, our Lord Himself commanded men to believe, and said, “Believe in God, believe also in me:” and yet His opinion is not therefore false, nor is His definition idle when He says, “No man cometh unto me”—that is, no man believeth in me—“except it has been given him of my Father.” Nor, again, because this definition is true, is the former precept vain. Why, therefore, do we think the definition of predestination useless to preaching, to precept, to exhortation, to rebuke,—all which things the divine Scripture repeats frequently,—seeing that the same Scripture commends this doctrine?

Augustine of Hippo, A Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance (c. 428-29), 34 in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1, 5: 538-39.

 

[Josheb]

WHAT!!?!???

Perserverance is a gift? How many gifts is that Guy giving away?

 

[Carbon]

WHAT!!?!???

Perseverance is a gift? How many gifts is that Guy giving away?

You don't see perserverance as a gift? This is something you can do just fine of yourself. okay

 

[Josheb]

You don't see perserverance as a gift? This is something you can do just fine of yourself. okay

Well, sure. If my still unregenerate sinful flesh can come to God in its own might and believe God as is then I can certainly persevere in my own effort once regenerated. If not, how would any not persevere?

 

[Carbon]

Well, sure. If my still unregenerate sinful flesh can come to God in its own might and believe God as is then I can certainly persevere in my own effort once regenerated. If not, how would any not persevere?

Paul said, “ I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” Phil 4:13 . God’s power indwells us in the person of the Holy Spirit, whom we received at conversion.

His power strengthens me to run the race in a way that glorifies Him. This, of ourselves we are not able to do.

If you believe you can bro, then I don't know what more to say.

 

[Carbon]

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6.

Scripture does not teach He handed the torch off to us.

 

[Josheb]

Paul said, “ I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” Phil 4:13 .

Yep. I'm the one doing all the things .

God’s power indwells us in the person of the Holy Spirit, whom we received at conversion.

Yep. I chose it and did it with my unregenerate fleshly will!

His power strengthens me to run the race in a way that glorifies Him. This, of ourselves we are not able to do.

Right! He powered me up to run the race. Running of the bulls, baby .

If you believe you can bro, then I don't know what more to say.

What? Wishful thinking isn't good? Are you sure?


I think I can. I think I can. I think I can. (man, that's tiring)

 

[Josheb]

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6.

Scripture does not teach He handed the torch off to us.

Prove it.

 

[Carbon]

Well, sure. If my still unregenerate sinful flesh can come to God in its own might and believe God as is then I can certainly persevere in my own effort once regenerated. If not, how would any not persevere?

If you have a chance read Sproul on the subject. https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tulip-and-reformed-theology-perseverance-saints

 

[Carbon]

Prove it.

Well, you're a different type of reformed then , since this is a joke to you. Have fun with it.

 

[Josheb]

Well, you're a different type of reformed then , since this is a joke to you. Have fun with it.

Join me. Might help some to see the absurdity.

 

[Carbon]

Join me. Might be help for some to see their own absurdity.

 

[A branch]

If God predestined some to believe that would mean He also predestined some not to. I would not believe God did that.
I believe predestination was for all mankind to come to the belief of Jesus Christ, however freewill keeps some from reaching that belief.

 

[Josheb]

If God predestined some to believe that would mean He also predestined some not to.

No, it does not.

None believe. The pool of people from which God chose some to believe was a pool 100%, uniformly, wholly, everywhere and all times never believing.

Genesis 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 53:2-3
God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there is anyone who understands, Who seeks after God. Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 102:18-20
This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the LORD. For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death...

Isaiah 53:1, 6
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ......All of us, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the LORD has caused the wrongdoing of us all To fall on Him.

Romans 3:10-12
...as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

1 Peter 2:25
For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.


Noah was not chosen because he believed; he believed because he was chosen. From the beginning of the Bible people are chosen by God without their ever knowing they were chosen. They are never asked if they want to be chosen; they are chosen without their awareness of having been chosen. Not only are they chosen without their knowledge and consent, but they are then called and commanded, again, without their knowledge and without their consent and all of them while still in the sinfully dead state. Only AFTER they have been chosen, called, and commanded are they ever asked anything (and sometimes that occasion occurs many years after their being chosen.

The "pre-" in "predestined," means they were destined to X prior to, and the uniform example found throughout scripture from beginning to end is that they were all chosen unawares, and all of them chosen from a pool of people who were all sinful, all unbelieving.

AND.....

.....in every single example those chosen, called, commanded, redeemed, regenerate, justified, sanctified, predestined, sealed, adopted, covered, created in Christ still sinned and could not believe themselves out of that condition.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Salvation by grace through faith is NOT of yourself.

I would not believe God did that.

Good because it a baseless argument not supported by reason or logic. It is fallacious. It's a red herring.

I believe predestination was for all mankind to come to the belief of Jesus Christ, however freewill keeps some from reaching that belief.

Think that through. What that means is that sin defeats God. The sinful flesh also defeats God. God predestined one thing ("all mankind to come to belief in Jesus Christ"), but the flesh, the sinful flesh prevents what God has predestined from happening.

Do I need to go through the scripture proving that impossible and irrational?


God predestining some to believe from a pool of dead unbelieving people does not mean He also predestined some not to. ALL have sinned and fall short of His glory and had He not acted none at all would believe.

 

[Carbon]

I believe predestination was for all mankind to come to the belief of Jesus Christ, however freewill keeps some from reaching that belief.

Really? Please show this teaching in scripture?

Thanks

 

[Arial]

If God predestined some to believe that would mean He also predestined some not to. I would not believe God did that.
I believe predestination was for all mankind to come to the belief of Jesus Christ, however freewill keeps some from reaching that belief.

Everyone already didn't believe in the person and work of Christ. So God chose some to save and inherit His kingdom, dwell in His house forever, and the rest He left in their natural condition. He did not predestine them to salvation.

Is there a place in which it could be said that He predestined them not to believe? Sure. But He did not make them not believe.