Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.)

[miss managed]

If a person doesn't believe in the Trinity then they are not a Christian. They may call themselves one, but the Trinity is a cardinal doctrine of one religion and one religion only---Christian.

Your divisiveness deserves a thumbs up!

Mod edit: Please address the post and not the person posting. See rules #1.1; 2.1; 2.2

 

[Josheb]

Again, look at the Trinity triangle.

I have.

One problem with this Trinity doctrine is that many believers go whatever way they want with it.

That is not a problem with the doctrine. That is a problem with the many believers.

The doctrine DOES TEACH that Jesus is God but that Jesus is NOT God.

That is incorrect.

In fact the big shots even admit the doctrine isn't explicit. WIKI has it right...bold is mine...

While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, it is implicit in John, a Trinity and the New Testament possesses a triadic understanding of God and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas. The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians (mid-2nd century and later) and fathers of the Church as they attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.

We do not get our doctrine from Wiki. We get it from scripture. Scripture reports Jesus is God. He is the logos of God that is God. He is the I Am that was before Abraham, the power of God, he is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God's being by whom, through whom, and for whom creation was created.

Here's a quote from your buddies at Desiring God...

How do you know they are my buddies?

The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons mean...

Means your prior statement is false and you've just wasted another post not addressing your own error. You are quoted as saying, "A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father..." and now you are on record citing a Reformed Baptist source explicitly telling you they are not the same person.

, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but he is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God.

What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? How is it not a contradiction for God to be both three and one?

www.desiringgod.org

You got it wrong. The Trinity doctrine does not teach Jesus and the Father are the same person.

Now either correct your earlier mistake and acknowledge the doctrine of the Trinity teaches the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three different Persons or be ignored as someone who knowingly bears false witness and refuses to repent when the evidence warranting correct is provided. Until that correction occurs everything you post will be a strawman and the only response any of us should or need provide is to make note of the strawman and move on until the mistake is corrected.

 

[miss managed]

the Trinity is a cardinal doctrine of one religion and one religion only---Christian

Sure it is...Hinduism, the Neo-Pagan faith of Wicca also has a Triple Divinity.

How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

Many who believe in the Trinity are surprised, perhaps shocked, to learn that the idea of divine beings existing as trinities or triads long predated Christianity. Yet, as we will see, the evidence is abundantly documented.

www.ucg.org

 

[miss managed]

I have.

That is not a problem with the doctrine. That is a problem with the many believers.

That is incorrect.

We do not get our doctrine from Wiki. We get it from scripture. Scripture reports Jesus is God. He is the logos of God that is God. He is the I Am that was before Abraham, the power of God, he is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of God's being by whom, through whom, and for whom creation was created.

How do you know they are my buddies?

Means your prior statement is false and you've just wasted another post not addressing your own error. You are quoted as saying, "A trinitarian believes Jesus is the same person as God the Father..." and now you are on record citing a Reformed Baptist source explicitly telling you they are not the same person.

You got it wrong. The Trinity doctrine does not teach Jesus and the Father are the same person.

Now either correct your earlier mistake and acknowledge the doctrine of the Trinity teaches the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three different Persons or be ignored as someone who knowingly bears false witness and refuses to repent when the evidence warranting correct is provided. Until that correction occurs everything you post will be a strawman and the only response any of us should or need provide is to make note of the strawman and move on until the mistake is corrected.

Talk about either being in denial or simply NOT understanding what you believe in.

{Edit: violation for rules 2.1 and 3.2}

 

[miss managed]

This is from Desiring God your good brother John is a diehard Trinny....The doctrine clearly states that Jesus IS God but that Jesus is NOT God.

"The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but he is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God."

That statement is nothing but contradictory foolishness.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

The wide gate has nothing to do with Trinity and apostasy has nothing to do with Christianity.

The Barna survey simply shows that many believers have done their OWN homework and threw Trinity right out the window.

How does the Barna survey conclude that these people are truly regenerated?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Sure it is...Hinduism, the Neo-Pagan faith of Wicca also has a Triple Divinity.

How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

Many who believe in the Trinity are surprised, perhaps shocked, to learn that the idea of divine beings existing as trinities or triads long predated Christianity. Yet, as we will see, the evidence is abundantly documented.

www.ucg.org

Seems you have an agenda to push.

You should try being more humble in your statements.

 

[makesends]

miss managed said:
This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving millions OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity!

For whatever it is worth, @miss managed , we don't believe in a man-made demon devised Trinity, either. We believe in the Scriptures, and statements by others that say better what we have found and can't explain well, call it the doctrine of the Trinity. We agree with it because we found it in Scripture too. The fact that, as you said somewhere, one does their own homework, does not lend veracity to anything, except that they are probably not attending to orthodoxy.

Do you win arguments by shouting louder or sounding more vehement? We could just as well say that anti-trinitarianism was demon-derived and man-made. It is meaningless in a debate setting. If you are trying to shame us or curse us, this is not the place to do it. We (most of us) mean you no harm. We would like to understand your rationale, your studying, your use of scriptures —not your feelings about what you don't believe.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I know - it's difficult for Trinitarians to accept being debunked! Been pushed to the edge have you? They make a pill for everything these days - even for conditions as bad as yours.

Did you notice the title of this thread? Look -

Argument against the Doctrine of the Trinity. (And keep it clean, please.​

My statements are humble. Do you call it humble when one Christian demonizes and condemns the other over a man-made Catholic doctrine?

You have not debunked anything.

 

[miss managed]

miss managed said:
This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving millions OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity!

For whatever it is worth, @miss managed , we don't believe in a man-made demon devised Trinity, either. We believe in the Scriptures, and statements by others that say better what we have found and can't explain well, call it the doctrine of the Trinity. We agree with it because we found it in Scripture too. The fact that, as you said somewhere, one does their own homework, does not lend veracity to anything, except that they are probably not attending to orthodoxy.

Do you win arguments by shouting louder or sounding more vehement? We could just as well say that anti-trinitarianism was demon-derived and man-made. It is meaningless in a debate setting. If you are trying to shame us or curse us, this is not the place to do it. We (most of us) mean you no harm. We would like to understand your rationale, your studying, your use of scriptures —not your feelings about what you don't believe.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent\par

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.\par

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.\par

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

 

[miss managed]

You have not debunked anything.

Jesus did in the book of John...

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Hazelelponi]

@miss managed

Hello and welcome to the forum. For good reason I was not invited to the discussion so I'll make this a one off, but elsewhere on the forum an exegesis of the verse in question from Hebrews 4:15 was given so I will share it again:

Scripture clarifies how Jesus was tempted “in all points like us” (Hebrews 4:15, ESV) without possessing sinful flesh.

Scripture teaches three main roots of temptation: “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16). In His wilderness temptation (Matthew 4:1-11), Jesus faced each of these, fulfilling Hebrews 4:15:

Lust of the Flesh: Satan tempted Jesus to turn stones into bread to satisfy hunger (Matthew 4:3-4). This targeted physical desire, but Jesus, having no sinful nature, responded with God’s Word, “Man shall not live by bread alone” (Deuteronomy 8:3).

Lust of the Eyes: Satan showed Jesus the world’s kingdoms, offering them for worship (Matthew 4:8-10). This appealed to visual desire for power, yet Jesus, sinless, rebuked Satan, “You shall worship the Lord your God” (Deuteronomy 6:13).

Pride of Life: Satan urged Jesus to throw Himself from the temple to prove God’s protection (Matthew 4:5-7). This tested pride, but Jesus, without sinful inclination, replied, “You shall not put the Lord your God to the test” (Deuteronomy 6:16).

Jesus was tempted in all points like us, as these cover the spectrum of human temptation (1 John 2:16). However, He didn’t fall, not because He overcame sinful urges, but because He had no sinful nature. Scripture affirms Jesus “knew no sin” (2 Corinthians 5:21) and was “without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). Unlike us, who inherit sin through Adam (Romans 5:12), Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35), His human nature pure. Our “sinful flesh” (Romans 7:18) inclines us to sin, but Jesus’ temptations were external, not internal urges, yet He fully sympathizes with our weakness (Hebrews 4:15).

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Scripture does not teach that Jesus Christ of Nazareth, our Lord and Savior, our Creator and our God, needed to repent of sin, in fact quite the opposite, Scripture teaches us that Christ had victory over sin at the Cross when sinless, He was offered as the perfect Lamb without spot or blemish for the redemption of His people, for the praise of His Glory.

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent\par

Same answer as above. What the first Adam failed to do (keep the law perfectly) the second Adam did because He is God.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He didn't have anything to repent of, that's why He's our Lord and Savior, and our God.

I pray you find the discussions here edifying.

 

[makesends]

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

What is the verse saying? That God would not become man, in Jesus' case? No, it is saying that God is not like us. Don't proof-text out of context. Each passage is to be interpreted by the rest of Scripture, and by good sense, and by its literary construction and by a host of other things. You have not done that with this.

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent\par

Same as above.

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Same as above.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.\par

Same as above.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Same as above.

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.\par

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Same as above.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Yes, he, as a man on earth, lived in submission to his Father and his God, as we should. He did his Father's will. How does that prove he was not himself God? I'd submit that proves he WAS God, since he alone was able to do what no other man ever did.

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

Because, as it says in Philippians 2, "he gave up (or put aside) his 'God-ness'", as I put it:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth

We don't worship mere men. Not even angels. Only God.

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

See the above.

But, it can even be argued that God the Son in all eternity is in submission to the Father, quite apart from whether he was also become man, just as the Spirit of God is in submission to the Son. Submission does not disqualify one from being God. That one person even considers himself "lesser" than another person does not make him LESS.

 

[Arial]

And all along I was under the ASSUMPTION that believing in Jesus' virgin birth, his life and miracles, his trials, persecutions and crucifixion, his burial and resurrection, and his ascension to the Father was all I had to believe...

You don't have to understand it, but to openly call it a doctrine of demons as you do, is a whole other story. To deny his divinity and make him a creature, is to make the one who took us out of Adam, paid the debt we owed (that this we is millions of people over the course of time) by dying in our place as one of us, something a creature is able to do. It exalts a creature to the status of and equal to God. It presents God and a god, sharing God's throne. It would not be the Jesus of the Bible. It would be a god made in the image of a man. Do you worship Jesus?

Now you're telling me that I have to believe in a{ Editl} doctrine {edit}that perverts the words of Jesus who said the Father is greater and that he can do nothing on his own.

The Trinity doctrine in no way denies that God is Jesus' Father in his work of redemption as one of us.

 

[Arial]

Your divisiveness deserves a thumbs up!

Mod edit: Please address the post and not the person posting. See rules #1.1; 2.1; 2.2

There is no divisiveness in stating the fact that the Trinity doctrine belongs exclusively to Christianity and is a cornerstone of it. The divisiveness is in those who want to jettison that doctrine and claim they are Christian anyway.

 

[Arial]

Sure it is...Hinduism, the Neo-Pagan faith of Wicca also has a Triple Divinity.

How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

Many who believe in the Trinity are surprised, perhaps shocked, to learn that the idea of divine beings existing as trinities or triads long predated Christianity. Yet, as we will see, the evidence is abundantly documented.

www.ucg.org

A trtinity of gods is not the same thing as a tirune God.

 

[Arial]

This is from Desiring God your good brother John is a diehard Trinny....The doctrine clearly states that Jesus IS God but that Jesus is NOT God.

"The fact that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons means, in other words, that the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. Jesus is God, but he is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, but he is not the Son or the Father. They are different Persons, not three different ways of looking at God."

That statement is nothing but contradictory foolishness.

Here is possibly why you think it is contradictory foolishness:
1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

The Trinity, particularly the deity of Christ is revealed knowledge, just as Jesus said to Peter in Matt 16:13-18

 

[miss managed]

1 Cor 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Your reply is precisely the reason I want nothing to do with Christians. Many believe they're superior because they have the Spirit but for reason they disagree with one another on most things!

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Your reply is precisely the reason I want nothing to do with Christians. Many believe they're superior because they have the Spirit but for reason they disagree with one another on most things!

Then why come to a Christian forum?

Do you claim to be regenerated?

If not, you cannot possibly understand the things of the Spirit and are at enmity with the Living God.

 

[Arial]

Your reply is precisely the reason I want nothing to do with Christians. Many believe they're superior because they have the Spirit but for reason they disagree with one another on most things!

Of you want nothing to do with Christians why do you call yourself one, and why are you on a Christian forum?