They pretty much all stated that their teachings as fresh revelations from God replaced the NT now
Are there modern day prophets and Apostle then today?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
true, as each and all of them claimed that they were given the task from and by God to "restore the true church", and that their group would be the one true church
Greetings JesusFan...just thought for you
Of course there are modern apostles and prophets today. However, you will normally only find them within the true Body of Christ, where the Lord Himself has placed them.
They generally do not attend the visible institutional church because that system derives its power and authority from the state, not from the Head, Christ Yahshua. Just look at her today in all her worldly glory.
If you want to see this in Scripture, consider Ephesians 4:7-16:
“But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift… And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ…”
Paul makes it clear that these five-fold graces are given for the equipping and building up of the Body — and they continue “until” we all reach the full stature of Christ. One look at the visible church today shows it has not yet come anywhere close to that maturity.
Those who claim we no longer need apostles and prophets because we have the Bible are missing this key point. The original apostles laid the foundation (Ephesians 2:20), but the Body is still being built upon that foundation. The work is not yet complete.
The visible church has largely joined itself to the systems of this world and the rulers of darkness. In contrast, true apostles and prophets are called to build up the Body into maturity and love, revealing the hidden wisdom of God for this hour.
They do not bring new Scripture — the Bible we have is sufficient. But they do bring fresh revelation and direction that helps the Body grow into the fullness of Christ in every age.
If someone has not encountered them, it may simply be that they are not yet in the place where these ministries are operating. As for those who insist they are no longer needed, they remain in a place of limitation until they open their hearts to what the Lord is actually doing in His Body today.
Thomas...
- Joined
- May 27, 2023
- Messages
- 9,321
- Reaction score
- 8,614
- Points
- 175
- Faith
- Christian/Reformed
- Country
- US
- Politics
- conservative
Define how you are using "apostles" in that sentence.
Define how you are using "prophets" in that sentence.
What determines the "true body of Christ?
On what are you basing that statement? And when you say "just look at her in all her worldly glory" what specifically are you referring to?
Paul is writing to the Ephesians at a specific time in history---the beginning and establishment of the teachings/doctrines of Christ's church. Paul is an apostle appointed by Jesus for this specific work as were the other apostles. And the passage does not say "and they continue until". That is inserted as an interpretation. It simply says until we all attain to the unity of faith----. That foundation was laid by the apostles and is contained within our NT. Those given to the church post the Apostolic period preach and teach that same foundation. That is the unity of faith. And it does not say "Until we all reach the full stature of Christ" it says "to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ".
Define what you mean by "apostles" and "prophets".
Be specific about how the visible church has joined itself to the systems of this world and the rulers of darkness. Be specific about how modern day apostles and prophets build up the body into maturity and love and how they reveal the hidden wisdom of God for this hour. You are too vague and overreaching. There is no way to debate or even know what to debate about. It is nothing but an opinion piece with nothing, not even definitions, specified.
Give an example of not bringing new Scripture but "fresh revelation and direction that helps the body grow into the fullness of Christ". That could mean any number of things to you and not one single person on here is a mind reader.
I have encountered plenty who claim to be apostles and prophets and then teach antithetical to the doctrines of the apostles, and do so by misusing Scripture to do so. Not only do they not cause growth in the knowledge of God, they pervert it and stymie it.
Greetings Arial...nice to see you...thank you for the questions, that is a lot of questions, I tried to answer them all in brief according to my understanding.
When I use the word “apostles” in that sentence, I mean exactly what the New Testament means: Apostles are spiritual fathers and builders whom Christ Himself gives to His Church. They are called and sent by the Lord to:
- Lay or strengthen the foundation of Christ "in people" and gatherings (1 Corinthians 3:10-11)
- Equip believers to find and walk in their unique gifts and callings
- Bring order, vision, and maturity so the Body can grow up into the full stature of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13)
They function like wise, fatherly leaders who help plant and establish healthy expressions of the Church.
When I use the word “prophets,” I mean:
Prophets are those Christ gives to speak His timely words under the direction of the Holy Spirit. They:
- Bring fresh revelation and direction from God that is always rooted in Scripture
- Call the church back to purity, love, and obedience
- Help the Body hear what the Holy Spirit is saying right now, so it can grow in maturity and unity
True apostles and prophets never add to the Bible. They simply help the Church live out the Bible with power and freshness in our time.
They are not flashy titles or self-appointed positions. They are quiet, humble servants placed by the Lord inside the true Body of Christ, where their fruit can be seen over time.
Thomas...
That’s a great question. The “true Body of Christ” is not a building, a denomination, or any human organization. According to the New Testament, it is the living, spiritual reality of all who truly belong to Jesus.
Here’s how Scripture defines it: The true Body of Christ consists of every person who has been born again by the Holy Spirit — those who have sincerely repented, trusted in Jesus’ finished work on the cross, and received Him as Lord and Savior. They are joined to Christ by faith and indwelt by the same Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Ephesians 1:13-14).
What reveals whether someone (or a group) is truly part of that Body?
- Christ is the only Head — They look to Yahshua alone for direction, authority, and life, not to traditions, leaders, or the systems of this world (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18).
- Love for one another — Yahshua said, “By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:34-35). Real members care for each other with genuine, sacrificial love.
- Obedience to God’s Word — They hunger to live out the Scriptures, walk in holiness, and bear the fruit of the Spirit rather than copying the ways of the world (John 8:31; Romans 12:2; Galatians 5:22-23).
- Dependence on the Holy Spirit — Their life and gatherings are marked by the presence and power of the Spirit, not just programs or outward forms.
In short, the true Body is wherever Christ is truly reigning as Head and His people are growing together in love, maturity, and obedience — even if they meet in simple homes or small gatherings.
The visible institutional church may contain many true believers, but the “true Body” itself is defined by spiritual reality, not by size, name, or official status.
Does this help clarify it?
Thomas...
My statement comes from what the New Testament teaches about Christ's Kingdom.
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). Today, the visible institutional church often gets its legal status, protection, and much of its power from the government — through things like incorporation and tax-exempt status. This means it depends on the state instead of depending only on Christ as its true Head (Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18).
When I say “look at her in all her worldly glory,” I’m talking about the things people can easily see: big, expensive buildings, polished programs, famous pastors, and close connections with government rules or popular culture. These things often make the church look successful in the same way the world’s systems do.
In the New Testament, the early church met simply in homes and depended completely on the Holy Spirit and the leadership of Jesus (Acts 2:42-47). The Bible tells us not to copy the ways of this world (Romans 12:2) and warns that being friends with the world makes us enemies of God (James 4:4).
I’m not judging the many sincere believers who attend these churches. A lot of them truly love the Lord. I’m simply pointing out that the system itself often gets its strength and identity more from the world than from Christ alone.
Thomas...
I appreciate your thoughts. Let’s look at the actual words in Ephesians 4:11-13.
Paul says Christ “gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints… to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”
The word “until” is in the text. Paul is saying these five gifts continue until the church reaches full unity in the faith and grows up into the full stature and maturity of Christ.
I agree the original apostles laid the foundation. But the passage does not limit these gifts to the early church. It connects them to the ongoing goal of building a mature Body that has not yet fully arrived at “the fullness of Christ.”
That’s why I believe these graces are still needed today — to equip every believer until we all reach that maturity.
Thomas...
Thank you for asking for specifics. Here’s what I mean:
How the visible church has joined the systems of this world:
- Many churches register as government corporations and depend on the state for tax breaks and legal protection instead of relying only on Christ as Head (John 18:36; Colossians 1:18).
- They often copy worldly methods: huge buildings, entertainment-style services, celebrity pastors, and political connections.
- This creates “friendship with the world,” which James 4:4 calls enmity with God.
According to Ephesians 4:11-13, Christ gives them to equip believers until the whole church reaches maturity and “the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.”
- Apostles lay strong spiritual foundations in people and help healthy gatherings grow.
- Prophets speak God’s timely words to encourage, correct, and reveal His current wisdom for this hour (1 Corinthians 2:7).
I’m not judging sincere believers inside those churches. I’m only pointing out that the system often depends more on the world than on Christ alone.
Thomas...
You’re right — I’ll try to give an example. “Fresh revelation and direction” does not mean new Scripture. The Bible is complete and sufficient. You have to remember that these people are called and anointed by the Lord for this, just like everyone else is called with a purpose. They too are raised up into their calling become more mature, more like the Lord.
Here’s what it might look like in practice, this is basic: A true prophet, speaking under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, might deliver a timely word like this to a divided church:
“I have seen the strife and the hardness of your hearts. Return to your first love! Forgive one another as I have forgiven you. Lay down your pride and walk in unity and love, for I am even now building My Body into one mature man — full of My glory and My love in this generation.”
This is not new Scripture. It is the Holy Spirit taking the written Word (Ephesians 4:1-3, John 13:34-35, Revelation 2:4) and speaking it with fresh fire and urgency for this hour. It cuts to the heart, brings repentance, and releases direction so the church can actually grow into the fullness and maturity of Christ.
An apostle might speak with fatherly care like this:
“I see some of you feeling lost, not knowing where you fit. Some of you are called to serve with compassion, some to teach with clarity, some to pray with power, and some to reach out to the broken. Come, let me help you discover your unique place in the Body. Let’s walk together so you can grow strong in your gift and we can all mature together into the full stature of Christ, full of love for one another.”
This is not new Scripture. It is fresh apostolic direction that builds on the foundation already laid (1 Corinthians 3:10-11). Apostles act like spiritual fathers — patiently equipping and training each believer to find and live out their special role so the whole Body grows up in love and unity (Ephesians 4:11-16).
Thomas...
I hear you, and I’m truly sorry you’ve encountered people who claimed to be apostles and prophets but ended up twisting Scripture and hurting the faith of others. That kind of misuse is painful and honestly grieves the heart of God. No true gift from Christ ever perverts His Word — it should always lead people deeper into the knowledge and beauty of Jesus.
At the same time, I gently push back with this: bad examples don’t cancel the real thing.
Just as there have always been false teachers, false prophets, and even false apostles (2 Corinthians 11:13), their existence doesn’t remove the genuine ministries Christ is still giving to His Church. The Lord didn’t say, “I will give some apostles and prophets… until people start misusing the gifts.” He said He gives them “until” we all come to the unity of the faith and the full measure of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13).
True apostles and prophets don’t draw attention to themselves or twist doctrine. They point people back to Christ with fresh fire and fatherly care. They help believers discover who they really are in the Body, equip them in love, and build something that actually looks and smells like Yahshua — mature, unified, and full of life.
If all we’ve seen are counterfeit versions, it’s easy to become cynical. But I believe the Lord is raising up the authentic ones in this hour — humble, Scripture-saturated, and passionate for the pure growth of His people. Maybe the real ones are operating in quieter, less flashy places right now.
My heart is simply this: Don’t let the counterfeit rob you of hunger for the genuine. The Body of Christ still needs fathers and voices that help us grow up into the fullness of who Yahshua is.
Thomas...
Josheb
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2023
- Messages
- 7,130
- Reaction score
- 3,899
- Points
- 150
- Location
- VA, south of DC
- Faith
- Yes
- Marital status
- Married with adult children
- Politics
- Conservative
I'm with @Arial. My very first thought was "How are those terms defined?" because a lot of people misuse or abuse the terms.
How would that differ from anyone here laying a foundation of Christ in people and gatherings as 1 Cor. 3:10-11 describes, equipping believers to find and perform their calling with their God-given gifts, and bring order, vision, and maturity to the body of Christ so the body can achieve all the many things described in Ephesians 4:11-13 and more.
I do those things on a near-daily basis yet neither I nor my fellow siblings in Christ consider or call me an apostle. I certainly do not hold any such title, formerly or otherwise.
Lots of people do that, not just prophets.
????? Many of the apostles and prophets added to the Bible. The entire New Testament portion of the Bible was added by the apostles. Do you mean modern apostles never add to the Bible? If so, then perhaps that answers the question asked = there are no modern apostles or prophets because the canon of scripture is closed. Since neither apostle nor prophet can add anything new to the Bible and that is what apostles and prophets did prior to the closing of scripture.....
.....there are no modern-day prophets or apostles.
I also have a question about the use of Ephesians 4:11-13. Several leadership positions are listed in the passage, but there is nothing in the passage indicating those are the only positions doing what is listed, and all five positions do all those listed tasks. What specifically does an apostle do? What does an apostle do that separates that position from an evangelist, or a teacher, or an administrator or deacon or elder?
- Joined
- May 27, 2023
- Messages
- 9,321
- Reaction score
- 8,614
- Points
- 175
- Faith
- Christian/Reformed
- Country
- US
- Politics
- conservative
I don't hunger for apostles. I hunger for Jesus and the knowledge of God and his own self-revelation in his word is sufficient for that. You still have said nothing concrete because you have your own idea of what an apostle is and have not made clear what that is. You have your own idea of what a genuine apostle would be teaching but don't say what that is. Apostle in Scripture is an office and there were only 12 plus Paul who was equipped and sent to the Gentiles. They had to meet certain criteria and that is given in Acts. They had to have been with Jesus during his earthly life and been eye witnesses of his resurrection and appointed by Jesus himself. In the case of Paul he had an personal interaction and commission from the resurrected Christ.
Anyone else who calls themself an apostle is a self-appointed apostle and a fraud who expects people to accept his word as though it were God himself speaking.
What is "fresh fire"? It is a charismatic buzz word. Discovering who we really are and building "something that actually looks and smells like Yahshua, unified and full of life" is self-centered, not Christ centered. And the minute a person stands up and says he is an apostle, he is drawing attention to himself and away from Christ.
- Joined
- May 27, 2023
- Messages
- 9,321
- Reaction score
- 8,614
- Points
- 175
- Faith
- Christian/Reformed
- Country
- US
- Politics
- conservative
That is a man speaking the words as though it were God speaking and God never spoke those words. We have the words he spoke. Those words are not in the Scripture. That isn't from Scripture and it isn't fresh revelation or fresh direction. I am surprised someone who claims they are mature and know God would have the nerve to do something like that. It shows they know him not at all.
One doesn't have to be an apostle to speak what the word actually says. And the Holy Spirit did the job perfectly the first time and gave it to us in the Bible. The Spirit does not take from his word and reapply it to "this hour". It all applies as written every hour. Hit You Tube and check out sermons and teachings of people like R.C, Sproul and Voddie Bucham and Sinclair Fergueson and then come back and tell me who knows what it means to be taught and grown with the word. And they no better than to have the audacity to call themselves apostles. They teach the word. And that is what the church needs. That is what grows people to maturity. The doctrines of Christianity that have been all but lost.
Well, how is he going to do that? What is he going to say to them? Notice in that statement all the "you's"? What you can have, what you can do, who you are, what is your gift and place? Is that about Christ? Is that focused on who God is and who Christ is and what he did and how he did it and why he did it and why it was the only way to do it. Does it focus on the grace of God to rescue us from our deplorable standing before a holy God? Does it teach on justification, the atonement, propitiation, sanctification, imputation, resurrection? Or is it just another self-help seminar?
It isn't even touching on the foundation that the apostles laid. It ignores it all together and probably the "apostle" doesn't even know what that foundation is.
- Joined
- May 21, 2023
- Messages
- 5,819
- Reaction score
- 5,991
- Points
- 138
- Faith
- Monergist
- Country
- USA
- Marital status
- Widower
- Politics
- Conservative
There is a barely mentioned implication in this thread, in the terms and the offices, 'Prophet', and 'Apostle', and that is the authority vested in them. This is a huge reason, if not the main reason, to reject the Roman Catholic Church. We who are in Christ deal directly with Christ. We don't need a go-between, nor anyone to be our conscience for us, nor anyone to read the Scriptures for us. I'm not talking about the nice terms, "fatherly guide" and, "loving", "unified" and so on.
This thread sounds to me, to be suggesting wolves in sheep's clothing.
Liberty of conscience is a BIG deal, to me.
This thread sounds to me, to be suggesting wolves in sheep's clothing.
Liberty of conscience is a BIG deal, to me.
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2024
- Messages
- 453
- Reaction score
- 729
- Points
- 93
- Location
- NE Ohio
- Faith
- Regenerated
- Marital status
- Married
There are none today.
I have seen many "true" apostles, so they say.
Always wondered why they do not go into hospitals and the like and heal diseased and dying people. I am certain they would say that the person does not have enough faith.
According to 2 Corinthians 12:12, they should be able to do signs, wonders and miracles.
2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
Sounds like people want to put themselves on a pedestal aso other see adn believe how spiritually mature they are.
As @makesends said, wolves in sheeps clothing.
I have seen many "true" apostles, so they say.
Always wondered why they do not go into hospitals and the like and heal diseased and dying people. I am certain they would say that the person does not have enough faith.
According to 2 Corinthians 12:12, they should be able to do signs, wonders and miracles.
2 Corinthians 12:12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
Sounds like people want to put themselves on a pedestal aso other see adn believe how spiritually mature they are.
As @makesends said, wolves in sheeps clothing.
