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Another Question for the Arminian

When a vandal mars a creation, it is not "simply by [God's] creating what was vandalized." God created the vandal, too! There is no player in this story that God did not create.


I like to read and consider the things of God in my free time so I might add:

God is not merely the “First Cause” in some abstract chain of events, as if He set the world in motion and stepped back watching dominoes fall. He is both the beginning and the end—the Alpha and the Omega.

He ordained the whole story, not just the opening scene. Every creature, including the vandal as you rightly pointed out, exists by His will and decree. And while He is never the author of sin, He remains absolutely sovereign over it—even sin serves His purpose, though it arises from the creature’s will. That’s not a contradiction—it’s the mystery of providence (cf. Proverbs 16:4, Acts 2:23, Genesis 50:20).


First Cause", by the logic of the law of causation and its completely pervasive implications, logically demands meticulous determinism —at least in what I mean by it. ALL that comes to pass does so, one way or another, by God having knowingly created; thus he has intentionally caused to come to pass.

God's sovereignty is not merely in causality but in His personal authorship and teleological (end-directed) governance.

Being “First Cause” alone doesn’t logically necessitate determinism—what necessitates it is that God is not only the Alpha, but also the Omega. He is not merely the One who starts the chain of causes, like tipping over a row of dominoes; He is the One who upholds, directs, and consummates all things according to His purpose (Ephesians 1:11). That’s not cold causality—that’s sovereign, personal design.

He doesn’t merely set things in motion; He ordains the very end from the beginning.
 
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There's nothing better to do with my free time than read and consider the things of God, so I might add:

God is not merely the “First Cause” in some abstract chain of events, as if He set the world in motion and stepped back watching dominoes fall. He is both the beginning and the end—the Alpha and the Omega.

He ordained the whole story, not just the opening scene. Every creature, including the vandal as you rightly pointed out, exists by His will and decree. And while He is never the author of sin, He remains absolutely sovereign over it—even sin serves His purpose, though it arises from the creature’s will. That’s not a contradiction—it’s the mystery of providence (cf. Proverbs 16:4, Acts 2:23, Genesis 50:20).




God's sovereignty is not merely in causality but in His personal authorship and teleological (end-directed) governance.

Being “First Cause” alone doesn’t logically necessitate determinism—what necessitates it is that God is not only the Alpha, but also the Omega. He is not merely the One who starts the chain of causes, like tipping over a row of dominoes; He is the One who upholds, directs, and consummates all things according to His purpose (Ephesians 1:11). That’s not cold causality—that’s sovereign, personal design.

He doesn’t merely set things in motion; He ordains the very end from the beginning.
And this is what I (and many) consider psychopathic hyper Calvinism. You want us to, in the same breath. declare the goodness of God.. and that some poor victim chained in a basement somewhere, when a monster walks in with a skil saw to pour out the horror of Hell on them.. that That is "God's ordained, intentional, designed will for them". Its socio/psychopathic. No one that knows God believes this insanity.
 
To be clear, the "choosing" you refer to is God's choosing who to give to Christ. In order to retain your definition of "foreknew" you have to have read/ or not read the grammatical structure of the Greek in that passage and ignored it in order to stick to your claim. You also had to ignore the fact that the word translated "foreknew" is never used as God foreseeing things in the Bible, except, according to Arminianists, just that one place. The very thing you accused Calvinists of doing.

Only in the minds of those who reject God's electing of those it pleases him to give to Christ. Here is why that happens. And it speaks directly to our fallen nature that we still have, even as those who have been regenerated and placed in Christ. Also to the tendency to accept some passages that speak of God's sovereignty over his creation as comforting and beautiful . These they accept and trust, but when confronted with that same sovereignty in election, not so much.

I did a search on meticulous determinism since I had never heard that term. What I found was an article where the author John Frye, who is promoting Greg Boyds books on spiritual warfare, Boyd attributing to Sproul "everything, down to a single molecule's activity is decreed by God and is so decreed for God;s glory" then when Zosia, an alive young Jewish girl in the Warsaw ghetto, has her eyes gouged out by Nazi soldiers to make two rings---the loving God of the universe decreed this for his matchless glory". The quote is Boyd's.

Quick note here: this is what is usually done as a defense against election and the sovereignty of God over his creation. Pathos driven language is used to evoke moral outrage. Rhetorical tension, emotional imagery, and irony to challenge a view of divine determinism.

What Sproul actually said was, "If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God's sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled."

When a person reads something like what Boyd said, they automatically agree with it---I mean who wouldn't?--- and no investigation of what was actually said and within its context, and no study or examination or logic applied to the words thrown around: determinism, meticulous determinism, or even what was in the mind of the person when they said whatever was said about "foreknowledge" in relation to election, or in any of the Doctrines of Grace, or any "ism" or "ology". Those opposed do not even use legitimate logic but "logic" not actually followed through to its conclusion and based solely on emotional reactions. There conclusion iow is based on an emotional reaction, not an examination of anything. Basically they jump from "That makes God decree evil" to "He would never!, so election by his choice, (or determinism or meticulous determinism, or anything else) is not true." The presume the conclusion that what is in their mind, is th sesame thing that is the others mind. And concerning evil and its source ,to God decrees evil actions, as thought that were actually what was being said, instead of he governs/controls/uses them for his purposes since they do take place in a world that is fallen and full of evil and evil people, a world under just judgement.

So where do we bump up against our fallen nature in all of this? It boils down to our desire to be autonomous. Eve was deceived by the same deceptive offer of the serpent. Not to mention that all their Christian life these opponents of God's electing who to give to Christ, have counted on what they were taught (and nothing else was ever taught to them) that they are saved because they made that choice. They have been fed the lie and swallowed it whole. And so they come screaming that God ordained that man would have a free will to choose his own destiny, even though that is nowhere presented as God's will in Scripture and defies his self revealed character. And the cry of the fallen human, regenerated though he may be, is no different than the cry of the atheist. With the exception that it adds to that "My will must be totally free or I have no will at all." A blatant false equivalency.

Let's follow through to a logical conclusion of this sovereignty of God over all his creation, his decrees, and what not, and see if the "free will, free choice" argument has a better conclusion than the one they attach to Reformed theology.

We have a God who these opponents agree is omnipotent; one who is omniscient and omnipresent and sovereign. But one who also has of his own free will, determined that man's will is just as free, and does not wish to violate it, and won't. He sees the above mentioned Jewish girl and what is happening to her. He has the power to keep it from happening. But he values the free will of the perpetrators more than he values the free will of the Jewish girl who certainly does not will that her eyes be gouged out, and stands back and lets it happen. Is that better than the view you have of God if there is not a single molecule that is outside of his control? The difference is, that the above is a real and valid conclusion, while the one attached to Reformed theology is nothing more than a reactive conclusion that bears no resemblance to the actual, fully explored, teachings in it, so the conclusion the opposition reaches is empty of any substance.

How about we Christians just believe God, what he says clearly and plainly in his word, without inserting terms to be endlessly debated, and trust him, like we are meant to. Instead of asking all the "why"s and "hows" that have no answer to be found in our minds because they are beyond us, not opened by God to be peered into, even if our minds were capable of doing such a thing. Just believe what he says instead of trying to change what he says to better suit our idea of him, as though he were a man like us.
Sproul was wrong on this (among many things) he misapplies "no rogue molecules".. God upholds creation, He upholds the Actual "molecules". It's not meant to be extrapolated that God 'upholds' the horror of man's wickedness. He sends the rain on the righteous and the wicked alike (another quandary for Calvinists, who's 'righteous'?!) So, Sproul went down the wrong rabbit hole. Wasn't Sproul the one applying "eros" to God also? Yeah, i'll pass on that one..
 
And this is what I (and many) consider psychopathic hyper Calvinism. You want us to, in the same breath. declare the goodness of God.. and that some poor victim chained in a basement somewhere, when a monster walks in with a skil saw to pour out the horror of Hell on them.. that That is "God's ordained, intentional, designed will for them". Its socio/psychopathic. No one that knows God believes this insanity.

My life has been very hard. To say this is an understatement of course, no one really will ever be able to understand what all I have been through, and I live every day of my life in physical pain now from it, the likes of which is also barely explainable.

But it's here that God met me, and what He saved me out of.

The day Christ saved me, every minute of hardship was made worth it. Why? Because on that day, God—through His Son—stooped low and said, “You are Mine.

God was never the monster. I was. Before He made me alive, I was dead in sin, hostile to God, no better than the man who hurt me. The monster wasn't just out there—it was in me. But God, being rich in mercy, made me alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:4–5).

The doctrine of God’s sovereignty isn’t psychopathic—it’s the only hope for the truly broken. It means nothing is wasted. It means every valley has meaning, and every tear is counted by the One who ordains both the valley and the mountaintop (Psalm 56:8, Romans 8:28).

I don’t worship a distant god who simply permits evil—I worship the sovereign Lord who entered into it, bore it, and conquered it at the cross. Knowing that God has been worth everything.

What leads you to believe you're better than the psychopath as standing before a Holy God? Do you understand what sin is?

Sin isn't just those things we might not do or engage in.
 
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My life has been very hard. To say this is an understatement of course, no one really will ever be able to understand what all I have been through, and I live every day of my life in physical pain now from it, the likes of which is also barely explainable.

But it's here that God met me, and what He saved me out of.

The day Christ saved me, every minute of hardship was made worth it. Why? Because on that day, God—through His Son—stooped low and said, “You are Mine.

God was never the monster. I was. Before He made me alive, I was dead in sin, hostile to God, no better than the man who hurt me. The monster wasn't just out there—it was in me. But God, being rich in mercy, made me alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:4–5).

The doctrine of God’s sovereignty isn’t psychopathic—it’s the only hope for the truly broken. It means nothing is wasted. It means every valley has meaning, and every tear is counted by the One who ordains both the valley and the mountaintop (Psalm 56:8, Romans 8:28).

I don’t worship a distant god who simply permits evil—I worship the sovereign Lord who entered into it, bore it, and conquered it at the cross. Knowing that God has been worth everything.
I appreciate your experience, and sympathize with it.. I also have been through some 'Hell', but I was already a believer.. and I absolutely knew He was there, and I could intimately feel what His will was.. and He made clear it was NOT what the wicked were doing. He made clear He was the Shelter in the midst of the fallen world, and to that point.. the Born Again do Not have a 'fallen nature', we don't have '2 natures'. There is a hardwired 'flesh' that needs to be "conformed" to the new nature. These are very important things to know about new life in Christ, otherwise you are beset by contradictions. New heart, new spirit, new mind, new nature.. New Creation. But no, someone being butchered by demons in the flesh is not having a "redeeming experience". They won't 'grow closer to God' from such. Hell want's you to think such is "God's will", wants the world to... it's SLANDER.
 
Let us assume for a minute that God had a beginning. A long, long, time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Just humor me and tell me how this could possibly have happened.

Unless you are one of those who does not believe God was behind the creation of everything and there were other forces of work, how could that have happened?

Or perhaps some god like Baal created Him?

I dont think so... but while you are musing on things figure this one out also.

If we are on the right side of things and we die we assume we will go to heaven or somewhere where there is a forward eternity.

How is that possible or will we all just die out sometime in eternity future.

If it has no end, certainly it might have no beginning.

But here is another for your think cap. Do you think we are the only ball of mud that we walk on that God created a lifeforce with a mind and thought pattern.

The only one in all the universes, Solar systems and galaxies out there we are the only life?

With all of the expanse of space that they try to date, but I am sure they are wrong, we are the only life?

Does it never cross anyone's mind to ask why?
It was a rhetorical question. I was making a point to Makesends who was asking me to 'explain how the sausage was made' with regard to God's omniscience/omnipotence. The "point" being, some things we can't 'explain' and 'no beginning' is one of them. Don't try to explain it, you can't. Just know it's true.
 
They won't 'grow closer to God' from such.

Stephen was granted peace and true sight in the very moment of his suffering. As his body was struck he beheld the glory of Christ standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55–56). He wasn't farther from God in that moment—he was nearer than ever. And it wasn’t unique to Stephen. The history of Christian martyrs bears the same witness: peace in the fire, songs in the prison, joy in the agony—not because suffering is good in itself, but because God was powerfully with them in the midst of it.

God decrees our rebirth through the trials of a fallen world, not apart from them. He never promised to keep us from suffering—He promised to keep us through it (Isaiah 43:2, John 16:33). That’s not weakness on God’s part. Fallen man isn’t running loose, thwarting God’s beautiful plan. Quite the opposite—every part of the story, even the dark valleys, are within His sovereign design.

The only ones marring beauty are those who, in their pride, suppose they know better than God and speak lies in the face of truth. They recoil at the doctrines of grace because they do not know what sin truly is. They imagine themselves more moral, more deserving—as though salvation came by merit and not mercy. But Scripture silences every claim to self-worth: “None is righteous, no, not one... no one seeks for God” (Romans 3:10–11).

Salvation is not a prize for the good. It is a gift for the guilty. And until that humbling truth is grasped, the offense of the cross will remain unbearable.
 
Stephen was granted peace and true sight in the very moment of his suffering. As his body was struck he beheld the glory of Christ standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55–56). He wasn't farther from God in that moment—he was nearer than ever. And it wasn’t unique to Stephen. The history of Christian martyrs bears the same witness: peace in the fire, songs in the prison, joy in the agony—not because suffering is good in itself, but because God was powerfully with them in the midst of it.

God decrees our rebirth through the trials of a fallen world, not apart from them. He never promised to keep us from suffering—He promised to keep us through it (Isaiah 43:2, John 16:33). That’s not weakness on God’s part. Fallen man isn’t running loose, thwarting God’s beautiful plan. Quite the opposite—every part of the story, even the dark valleys, are within His sovereign design.

The only ones marring beauty are those who, in their pride, suppose they know better than God and speak lies in the face of truth. They recoil at the doctrines of grace because they do not know what sin truly is. They imagine themselves more moral, more deserving—as though salvation came by merit and not mercy. But Scripture silences every claim to self-worth: “None is righteous, no, not one... no one seeks for God” (Romans 3:10–11).

Salvation is not a prize for the good. It is a gift for the guilty. And until that humbling truth is grasped, the offense of the cross will remain unbearable.
There's no way to rationalize that God designs and effects , and Wills the very things He decries, demands and commands that the wicked NOT do. It's inanity.. and so easy to see.
* Let me ask you, why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?
 
There's no way to rationalize that God designs and effects , and Wills the very things He decries, demands and commands that the wicked NOT do. It's inanity.. and so easy to see.
* Let me ask you, why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Biblically, the tensions between God’s preceptive will (what He commands) and His decretive will (what He ordains) are not contradictions but the mystery of His holy will. Christ’s lament over Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) is not evidence of divine frustration or helplessness but an outpouring of His absolute holiness—the holy grief of the sovereign Judge, whose justice is perfect and whose compassion is genuine.

Christ decrees judgment yet takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). He commands all to repent, even where, in His sovereign wisdom, He has not gifted repentance. This is not incoherence but the unfathomable glory of a God who is both just and merciful, sovereign and compassionate, never at war with Himself but always acting in perfect wisdom.
 
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Biblically, the tensions between God’s preceptive will (what He commands) and His decretive will (what He ordains) are not contradictions but the mystery of His holy will. Christ’s lament over Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37) is not evidence of divine frustration or helplessness but an outpouring of His absolute holiness—the holy grief of the sovereign Judge, whose justice is perfect and whose compassion is genuine.

Christ decrees judgment yet takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). He commands all to repent, even where, in His sovereign wisdom, He has not granted repentance. This is not incoherence but the unfathomable glory of a God who is both just and merciful, sovereign and compassionate, never at war with Himself but always acting in perfect wisdom.
Why would He weep when His "elect" will be just fine? Just to confuse everyone?
 
Why would He weep when His "elect" will be just fine? Just to confuse everyone?

Why would a parent cry about kicking their adult child out of their house because the adult child had taken advantage of them and abused every kindness shown?

Just to confuse everyone? Or perhaps it was they took no pleasure in punishing the guilty.
 
Why would a parent cry about kicking their adult child out of their house because the adult child had taken advantage of them and abused every kindness shown?

Just to confuse everyone? Or perhaps it was they took no pleasure in punishing the guilty.
According to you, it's God's will.. not a "regret". He Designed their expulsion.. meticulously.. no 'ragrets'.
 
Sproul was wrong on this (among many things) he misapplies "no rogue molecules".. God upholds creation, He upholds the Actual "molecules". It's not meant to be extrapolated that God 'upholds' the horror of man's wickedness.
Sproul was not extrapolating that God"upholds" the horror of man's wickedness. That is your conclusion, not his.

It is amazing how someone can read a post that points out that very thing is being done by the opposition and they read it, turn around and do it some more. It uses catastrophic and confrontational language to give it weight, rather than addressing any actual issues brought up by the post it is responding to. It creates a diversion away from a topic by attacking a person (Sproul) who can in no way defend or explain his own words.
He sends the rain on the righteous and the wicked alike (another quandary for Calvinists, who's 'righteous'?!)
It is not even the slightest quandary to the Calvinist. Why do you speak for Calvinists as to what is the operation of their mind? General mercy over all his creation is not the same thing as the specific mercy that is given to the elect in salvation. You do realize, I hope, that all good things come from God----including the rain and the grain, and life itself. All things live and move and have their being in him.
So, Sproul went down the wrong rabbit hole. Wasn't Sproul the one applying "eros" to God also? Yeah, i'll pass on that one..
I cannot believe the arrogance and self importance of a person who has likely not done a tenth of the work put into "getting it as close to right as able" as Sproul did over his lifetime, to announce that Sproul was wrong and went down a rabbit hole. If you are going to make the claim against Sproul about him applying "eros" to God, then you darn well better not leave it there by saying you will pass on that one. That is dishonest and disingenuous. That is pretty much the way all these "debates" go on this subject, by those opposed to Reformed theology. They only have paper swords to fight with, so what else can they do?
 
Sproul was not extrapolating that God"upholds" the horror of man's wickedness. That is your conclusion, not his.

It is amazing how someone can read a post that points out that very thing is being done by the opposition and they read it, turn around and do it some more. It uses catastrophic and confrontational language to give it weight, rather than addressing any actual issues brought up by the post it is responding to. It creates a diversion away from a topic by attacking a person (Sproul) who can in no way defend or explain his own words.

It is not even the slightest quandary to the Calvinist. Why do you speak for Calvinists as to what is the operation of their mind? General mercy over all his creation is not the same thing as the specific mercy that is given to the elect in salvation. You do realize, I hope, that all good things come from God----including the rain and the grain, and life itself. All things live and move and have their being in him.

I cannot believe the arrogance and self importance of a person who has likely not done a tenth of the work put into "getting it as close to right as able" as Sproul did over his lifetime, to announce that Sproul was wrong and went down a rabbit hole. If you are going to make the claim against Sproul about him applying "eros" to God, then you darn well better not leave it there by saying you will pass on that one. That is dishonest and disingenuous. That is pretty much the way all these "debates" go on this subject, by those opposed to Reformed theology. They only have paper swords to fight with, so what else can they do?
Apologies, it was Piper.
 
Apologies, it was Piper.
It was Piper what? Applying eros to God. That doesn't change the fact that you need to demonstrate that with quotes of Piper saying it and the source of the full context of where he said it. Otherwise it remains dishonest as to an argument, and disingenuous.
 
It was Piper what? Applying eros to God. That doesn't change the fact that you need to demonstrate that with quotes of Piper saying it and the source of the full context of where he said it. Otherwise it remains dishonest as to an argument, and disingenuous.
"[Our love for Jesus].. that love is "erotic" to the core.." Google it. There is no proper 'context' for such a statement.
 
According to you, it's God's will.. not a "regret". He Designed their expulsion.. meticulously.. no 'ragrets'.
Did you ever consider that God's plan of redemption might just be bigger than, and serve an even greater purpose than simply the well being of ant like men? That maybe men are his servants in accomplishing his purpose? Instead of, he is our servant to bend to our every need and desire? If you missed it, from Gen 3:15 everything, all Gods; decrees, and the things he ordains, and the things he uses to move the plan unbroken forward are moving towards, and contributing to, Rev 21: 1-27; 22.

Have you ever paused to seriously ponder the impact of Col 1:16 For by him (Jesus) all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.


The egocentricity of fallen man is astonishing!
 
"[Our love for Jesus].. that love is "erotic" to the core.." Google it. There is no proper 'context' for such a statement.
Google it?!!!! How archaic. That could take an inordinate amount of time to get a contextual result, and possible with no success. So I used ChatGPT. It will give you a direct answer to the direct question. Then it will even ask you "Would you like me to----" and give options. You can ask it questions if you need more information. So what I found was in saying what you did it was just more pathos language intended to present something one way when it was another way entirely. It was another case of what something means to a person who hears it, being superimposed onto the speaker as though they mean the same thing you do. But here is what I found. There is no transcript of the entire session or conversation but there is a video. So I can only put it into its contextual meaning by quoting the full set of sentences in which the remark was contained. The following is from ChatGPT.






What Piper Actually Said​

  • Context: At the Shepherds Conference (early 2024), Piper addressed pastors about the aim of spiritual leadership—not merely obedience but a deeper, relational love for Jesus. James W. Walraven+3The Patriot Light+3Free Republic+3
  • Quote (paraphrased):

    “That love is not equal to obedience, and it’s not equal to agape. That love is erotic to the core. Eros means I find pleasure in you, Jesus. I find pleasure in you, Jesus. You are my preciousness. And there comes obedience.” Free Republic+1James W. Walraven+1
  • Piper appeared to clarify immediately that calling the love "erotic" was "an overstatement"—indicating he didn’t intend a purely literal or sexual sense, but rather a metaphor for intense passion rooted in desire for Christ. James W. Walraven

 
Google it?!!!! How archaic. That could take an inordinate amount of time to get a contextual result, and possible with no success. So I used ChatGPT. It will give you a direct answer to the direct question. Then it will even ask you "Would you like me to----" and give options. You can ask it questions if you need more information. So what I found was in saying what you did it was just more pathos language intended to present something one way when it was another way entirely. It was another case of what something means to a person who hears it, being superimposed onto the speaker as though they mean the same thing you do. But here is what I found. There is no transcript of the entire session or conversation but there is a video. So I can only put it into its contextual meaning by quoting the full set of sentences in which the remark was contained. The following is from ChatGPT.






What Piper Actually Said​

  • Context: At the Shepherds Conference (early 2024), Piper addressed pastors about the aim of spiritual leadership—not merely obedience but a deeper, relational love for Jesus. James W. Walraven+3The Patriot Light+3Free Republic+3
  • Quote (paraphrased):

  • Piper appeared to clarify immediately that calling the love "erotic" was "an overstatement"—indicating he didn’t intend a purely literal or sexual sense, but rather a metaphor for intense passion rooted in desire for Christ. James W. Walraven

Totally inappropriate, horrible judgement.. indefensible. And those that seek to defend it, or him in this instance, how much error are you willing to defend? Right is right, wrong is wrong.
 
Totally inappropriate, horrible judgement.. indefensible. And those that seek to defend it, or him in this instance, how much error are you willing to defend? Right is right, wrong is wrong.
Maybe it is a jarring word to use given that our culture is obsessed with sex. He did however, clarify his meaning and what he meant is what counts, regardless of anyone's judgmental, legalistic, self righteous opinion. Have you never used a word that had nuances of meaning that you wished with deep embarrassment that you had not used? Would you want to judged so harshly as you are judging Piper?

The fact is, that was not even the reason why you posted it in the first place, so you are back peddling yourself. You used it to give the impression that Piper was suggesting that our love for Jesus is erotic, sexual. And you did so simply because he is a Calvinist and you don't like his theology. You used it as a weapon.
 
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