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A Question for the Evolutionist (of any stripe)

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A person can affirm or deny that God created the world (initial condition).

Technically, and for the sake of completeness, that is a false dilemma. There is a third option:
  • A person can neither affirm nor deny that God created the world (i.e., “I don’t know”).
Such a person could admit that a creator is more probable than not, yet be unable to affirm such a proposition apart from being convinced.

Process:

1) Atheist: Deny God as creator and affirm evolution as the process.
2) Theistic Evolutionist: Affirm God as creator and affirm evolution as the process
3) Sola Scriptura [Creationist]: Affirm God as creator and affirm Genesis as the process.

… Two separate questions, 1) Who created it? 2) How was it created?

None of those options account for my position, so there is a fourth option:
  • The Sola Scriptura Creationist: Affirm God as creator and affirm evolution as the process.
I am committed to a Reformed covenant theology, which stands on the five Solas—one of which is sola scriptura.
 
Well, that is covenantal language, which is meaningless apart from a covenant relationship. Humans evolved over a few hundred thousand years, and then roughly 6,000 years ago God entered into a covenant relationship with mankind, inaugurated with Adam as our federal head. Prior to that, no covenant relationship existed. So, I would say that @CrowCross is right, “The Bible does a very good job at explaining why we sin”—which is exactly the same Bible that this evolutionary creationist uses.
Evolutionist don't use Gen 2:7 or Gen 2:22. So, I would not say it is the same bible.
 
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Technically, and for the sake of completeness, that is a false dilemma. There is a third option:
  • A person can neither affirm nor deny that God created the world (i.e., “I don’t know”).
Such a person could admit that a creator is more probable than not, yet be unable to affirm such a proposition apart from being convinced.



None of those options account for my position, so there is a fourth option:
  • The Sola Scriptura Creationist: Affirm God as creator and affirm evolution as the process.
I am committed to a Reformed covenant theology, which stands on the five Solas—one of which is sola scriptura.


It was not the process, as the text says, so you are not sola scriptura. When you say that you actually subvert the text to your understanding of biology, and it is that biology that is saying what the process was.

That is why the question 'Did God interrupt nature' question is more fundamental than what you are saying. But it is not an interruption of nature, if nature does not have the 'vril'--the late 19th century German term saying that there was a life-force in nature by itself that would have resulted in life on earth. Haeckl thought so. It became part of pan-Germanism because then there was no answer to them as a race that can and should dominate. They were nature! There is extensive literature on this; there was so much, I made an annotated bibilography about this. Malone mentioned it in his doc on THE MOSES CONTROVERSY because it was a German archeologist who intentionally buried the evidence of a Semitic tribe under the newer level of the Egyptian city of Goshen. He couldn't allow anything that validated Exodus!

The nature that occurred because of the 'spreading out' was lifeless. The conditions found before creation week in 1:2 are lifeless (bohu). This is one of my fundamentals. That means that when the spreading out happened, the lifeless universe was distributed from a center, but not life, not earthen life (there were already principalities and powers). This is why we find earth in the form it was in 1:2 and there is no life until some days later.
When YECs don't see that the period from the spreading out to Day 1 was lifeless, they are actually caving to the mistaken view of the universe. They are actually afraid to allow that this period exists because (to them, because of secular influences) it means that nature by itself would result in life. It would not. This is confirmed in Ps 104 and in 2 Peter 3. I have previously attempted to show that what Peter is saying to the 'stoicheans' is that all three events--creation, cataclysm and the coming judgement--are disruptions of nature. The stoicheans did not want this to be the case.

Why didn't Peter just say creation quietly just existed from a long time ago? Because he was talking about the spreading out and all he needed was the verb 'to be.'. When it came time to talk about the creation of this world in its human-inhabitable form, it is like a potter working with clay; a disruption. A 'drop' as a potter would say, to make it moldable. This matches Ps 104.

There was no process. "Developmentalism was made plausible through a sort of trick" as Lewis once described what you are saying, in "Two Lectures" in GOD IN THE DOCK.

These are all points I have tried to have you address in the past, and everything you have put up has been unsatisfactory--that is unBiblical. It always defaults to what you think are natural, evolutionary processes and your attempt to make those two (Genesis and vril) one and the same. And you have not dealt with the exegetical details raised, I think, because you think Genesis 1 is merely liturgical poetry, instead of an ordinary description which a farmer (Adam) could grasp.
 
Evolutionist don't use Gen 2:7 or Gen 2:22. So, I would not say it is the same bible.

But evolutionary creationists (like me) use those passages, so what I said continues to hold.
 
[Evolution] was not the process, as the text says, so you are not sola scriptura. When you say that, you actually subvert the text to your understanding of biology, and it is that biology that is saying what the process was.

1. Affirming sola scriptura does not require accepting your unique interpretation of Genesis.

2. In my view, evolution does not map onto Genesis. I should not have to say this again.

[MOD HAT: Misrepresenting my view again will incur moderation.]

That is why the question 'Did God interrupt nature' question is more fundamental than what you are saying.

Indeed. In fact, it is deeper than even you suppose.

And the answer is still, “No.” It is theologically impossible for God to “interrupt” nature. Such a notion is utterly incoherent.

The nature that occurred because of the 'spreading out' was lifeless. The conditions found before creation week in 1:2 are lifeless (bohu). This is one of my fundamentals.

That belongs to your interpretation, which I happen to reject. So do a lot of other sola scriptura creationists.

It always defaults to what you think are natural, evolutionary processes and your attempt to make those two (Genesis and vril) one and the same.

[MOD HAT: Again, any further misrepresentations of my view will incur moderation.]

And you have not dealt with the exegetical details raised, I think, because you think Genesis 1 is merely liturgical poetry, instead of an ordinary description which a farmer (Adam) could grasp.

I have not addressed any of the “exegetical details” you raise because I simply don’t understand your view or your argument. I can’t respond to something that isn’t even intelligible to me.

And I’m still shocked to hear you characterize liturgy in that way (“merely liturgical”), as if it’s an inferior thing. In my view, calling something liturgical is an elevation; I believe liturgy is one of the highest modes of truth-claim—certainly far superior to science.
 
1. Affirming sola scriptura does not require accepting your unique interpretation of Genesis.

2. In my view, evolution does not map onto Genesis. I should not have to say this again.

[MOD HAT: Misrepresenting my view again will incur moderation.]



Indeed. In fact, it is deeper than even you suppose.

And the answer is still, “No.” It is theologically impossible for God to “interrupt” nature. Such a notion is utterly incoherent.



That belongs to your interpretation, which I happen to reject. So do a lot of other sola scriptura creationists.



[MOD HAT: Again, any further misrepresentations of my view will incur moderation.]



I have not addressed any of the “exegetical details” you raise because I simply don’t understand your view or your argument. I can’t respond to something that isn’t even intelligible to me.

And I’m still shocked to hear you characterize liturgy in that way (“merely liturgical”), as if it’s an inferior thing. In my view, calling something liturgical is an elevation; I believe liturgy is one of the highest modes of truth-claim—certainly far superior to science.

John, this needs to be done with a moderator. I am done accepting your dictations. For ex., on interrupting nature: if you'd read Lewis, you'd see there is a huge problem in what you do. There is nothing incoherent about it at all, and you do not decide for me what is coherent. Babies are naturally concieved through male-female conception, but God interrupted and Mary conceived without that.

You can't just dictate 'there is no interruption;' you have to give reasons. At present, I say you don't give reasons because you can't defend it.
 
I don’t know how to take that value judgment because I don’t know what harsh means in this context.



I think part of the difficulty here is simply how the language is functioning. I am trying to be careful about this because the theory of evolution is often misunderstood by so many creationists (because it was misrepresented to them by their teachers). When someone reduces population-level processes to individual ontology, a category mistake is introduced that ends up confusing the discussion.

Many sincere objections to evolution stem not from the scientific theory in its own terms but from a caricature thereof. If our objections and critiques find no traction when dealing with evolution under its own terms, then we may have already lost the core of the argument—and, more importantly, we risk building our understanding on a foundation that isn't true.

Properly speaking, Adam is a human, and it is humans that are the product of “many evolutionary generations.” If Adam has parents in this scenario, then he is the product of a single generation, not many—his parents. (And if the phrase “evolved Adam” is meant as shorthand for that, then the shorthand obscures more than it clarifies, which is why I push back on that wording.)



I would say that you are asking two different questions. In my view, moral cognition developed among anatomically modern humans less than 100,000 years ago, and man was made in the image of God around 6,000 years ago, which is also when God entered into the covenant relationship with mankind that defines sin.

And describing Adam’s father as “a mere advanced animal” sounds dehumanizing, as if he was a different species. But we are talking about 6,000 years ago. Why would he be any less human than Adam? At that time, Homo sapiens were the only extant humans.



Correct.



Well, that is covenantal language, which is meaningless apart from a covenant relationship. Humans evolved over a few hundred thousand years, and then roughly 6,000 years ago God entered into a covenant relationship with mankind, inaugurated with Adam as our federal head. Prior to that, no covenant relationship existed. So, I would say that @CrowCross is right, “The Bible does a very good job at explaining why we sin”—which is exactly the same Bible that this evolutionary creationist uses.
Biblical example though would be that Adam and Eve were the very first humans, and were created by act of God Himself directly
 
I don’t think a person who insists on their view and prohibits dissent should be on staff here. It seems like at a minimum, if a staff person are going to hold a view, they should be able to explain calmly. Like the pastoral letters say.

If they find themselves misrepresented, just explain more instead of claiming the other person doesn’t present you right. Provide reasons not declarations about what they are allowed to think. An old Jewish rabbinic story says it takes 3 questions to be sure of what we are hearing.
 
I am committed to a Reformed covenant theology, which stands on the five Solas—one of which is sola scriptura.

Amen to that. I hope you don't mind my jumping in here and taking this from where my understanding lies. Perhaps it will be something positive for everyone, myself included.

Romans 5, in my reading of Scripture, does not portray Adam as a merely elected representative chosen from among pre-existing humans. Paul's reasoning demands a deeper, organic unity: all humanity derivatively present in Adam as its natural head.

The logic is tight: Through one man's trespass, condemnation came to all; death spread to all because all sinned (Rom. 5:12, ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον). This only holds if humanity flows from Adam as its source—the headwaters of the race—not as parallel lines independent of him.

Scripture reinforces this elsewhere: God "made from one man every nation of mankind" (Acts 17:26), and genealogies trace back to Adam as "the son of God" (Luke 3:38).If Adam instead emerged from or was selected into a pre-existing biological population, Paul's framework unravels. Pre-Adamites would either:
  • Share in guilt without organic connection to Adam's sin (arbitrary and unjust),
  • Remain innocent while Adam introduces sin (contradicting universality: sin/death through "one man"),
  • Or exist outside Adam's lineage entirely (fracturing human unity and implying multiple origins, contra Acts 17:26).
No option fits Scripture.The premier biblical analogy is Hebrews 7:9–10: Levi "paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor." This is covenantal-seminal realism: Levi truly participated because seminally present in Abraham as progenitor—not mere appointee. Paul applies the same to Adam: "By one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:19); "in Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22). "In Adam" (ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ) is union language—both federal and natural.

Historic Reformed theology affirms this dual headship: remove the natural/organic, and the federal becomes ungrounded and arbitrary.

Population-origin models face insoluble dilemmas:
  • If the population was sinful pre-Adam, Adam introduces nothing (Romans 5 collapses).
  • If innocent, guilt attaches without organic unity (unjust).
  • If only descendants are guilty, universality fails—some humans escape sin's origin in "one man," undermining redemption's scope.
Finally, the Adam-Christ typology demands Adam as the first man, not a selected one. Adam heads the old creation unto death; Christ, the last Adam, heads the new unto life (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:45). Fracture Adam's sole progeniture, and humanity's unity splinters—Christ redeems one lineage among many.

Yet just as we are "in Christ" by vital union, so all were "in Adam" by origin.

Typology requires symmetry: Christ fulfills what Adam began as the head of all humanity.
 
I hope you don't mind my jumping in here and taking this from where my understanding lies.

I don’t mind at all.

Just as an aside: I can detect AI-generated content in your response. [1] Arguing with AI is okay—I get into it with ChatGPT a lot—but I would prefer that you indicate which content is yours.

Romans 5, in my reading of Scripture, does not portray Adam as a merely elected representative chosen from among pre-existing humans. Paul's reasoning demands a deeper, organic unity.

While we do find Paul speaking of Adam as a covenantal representative, both here and elsewhere, your inclusion of “merely” is curious. It suggests that Adam is not only a covenantal representative but also something else. What additional thing is required to make sense of the covenantal logic of Reformed theology? You seem to think the “sole progeniture” of Adam is needed, as if covenant theology “unravels” without that. But that simply does not follow. Let’s explore the weaknesses of the argument that the AI reasoning model produced. I will call him Airm.

The logic of Romans 5 requires Adam to be the headwaters​

Airm tried to argue that the logic of Romans 5 “only holds if humanity flows from Adam as its source, the headwaters of the race.” But in my Reformed evolutionary creationism, Adam most certainly is the headwaters—covenantally and forensically. While his contemporaries were “independent of him” biologically, nobody is independent of him covenantally. He is the federal head and covenant representative of all humanity; like everyone else, his contemporaries were “in Adam” covenantally. So no, they cannot “remain innocent while Adam introduces sin.”

Airm is simply wrong. It is neither arbitrary nor unjust that Adam’s contemporaries share in guilt without an “organic” connection to him. It is not arbitrary because Adam’s federal headship is God’s sovereign, juridical appointment rooted in his eternal covenant of redemption, and it is not unjust because justice is constituted by God’s covenantal ordering of humanity. If God constitutes humanity under representative heads, either Adam or Christ, then covenantal imputation is an expression of justice, necessarily, not a violation of it.

Moreover, consider the other side of this covenantal coin, namely, Jesus Christ. Believers share in righteousness without any seminal connection to Christ—all of his contemporaries and everyone after were “independent of him” biologically—yet you wouldn’t call that arbitrary or unjust. If it is unjust for Adam’s sin to be imputed to those not connected to him biologically, it must be equally unjust for Christ’s righteousness to be imputed to those not connected to him biologically. Moreover, those condemned in Adam ratify his sin by their own actual sins, just as those justified in Christ ratify his righteousness by bearing fruit accordingly. The symmetry of biblical soteriology and imputation is crucial (v. 14). Paul explicitly yokes the two, so rejecting one shipwrecks the other.

Scripture never grants the premise that justice requires biological dependence. Judgment (v. 16), condemnation (v. 18), and constitution (v. 19, κατεστάθησαν) are acts of divine adjudication. The only relevant question in Pauline theology is, “Under what head does God reckon you?” Nobody is independent of either—covenantally and forensically.

“From one man” in Acts 17:26​

Here, too, Airm is mistaken, an interpretive error stemming from a transmission error. He quotes Acts 17:26 as saying, “God made from one man every nation of mankind.”

This is another one of those obvious and compelling texts that I had to take seriously when developing my view. I learned from the historical-grammatical exegesis of this text that the word “man” (or sometimes “blood”) does not exist in the earliest and best manuscripts. It is an interpolation, perhaps a marginal note that was later inserted into the text itself. So, I would want to emphasize, here, that it was the original texts that were inspired by God. By definition, interpolations are not original. I think my implication is clear.

Yes, God made of one every nation of men—but one what? I believe the surrounding context (vv. 24-29) provides that answer (cf. Mal 2:10), especially a historical understanding of the first-century Athenians and their religious ideas. (I highly recommend the Expositor's Bible Commentary by W. R. Nicoll.) Against the Stoics and Epicurians (v. 18), Paul explained (a) that we are all of one God, not many gods, (b) that the visible world is not identical to God but is rather his purposeful creation, and (c) that God is personally and deeply invested in this world. This message would also constitute a subversive polemic against these Athenians who maintained a sharp, radical distinction between themselves and the outside barbaric world. No, said Paul, from one were all the nations of the earth made, one whose providential care "determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live," etc.

Having said that, I would also remind everyone of the work done by Swamidass who showed that, even if we would like Acts 17:26 to be a reference to Adam, it would not prove that he was the first human nor disprove billions of years of natural history. Why? Because, as can be argued biblically and demonstrated scientifically, we are all the genealogical progeny of Adam and Eve who lived 6,000 years ago—even in light of evolution being true. Let that sink in.

Side note: Yes, the genealogies trace back to Adam as “the son of God” (Luke 3:38). But while tracing back to Adam supports that he existed, it does not support that he was the first human.

In the loins of his ancestor​

The premier biblical analogy is Hebrews 7:9–10: Levi “paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor.” This is covenantal-seminal realism: Levi truly participated because seminally present in Abraham as progenitor—not mere appointee.

Appealing to Hebrews 7 to require “seminal presence” actually undermines covenant theology. Again, if representation requires biological participation, Christ cannot represent humanity—and the Adam–Christ parallel in Romans 5 falls apart. The appeal to “loins” replaces covenant with biology and ends up denying the very federal logic it is meant to defend.

And now for some miscellany​

Historic Reformed theology affirms this [federal and natural union].

True. My view definitely is at odds with Reformed tradition.

However, it doesn’t follow that the federal union becomes ungrounded and arbitrary if you remove the natural/organic union.

If the population was sinful pre-Adam, Adam introduces nothing (Romans 5 collapses).

True. But humans were not sinful pre-Adam.

If innocent, guilt attaches without organic unity (unjust).

False, as I’ve shown. It cannot be unjust. Again, guilt attaches without organic union to Adam just as righteousness attaches without organic union to Christ. Imputation is covenantal, not biological.

If only descendants are guilty, universality fails.

True. But the premise is rejected: It is not just his descendants who are guilty.

Adam heads the old creation unto death; Christ, the last Adam, heads the new unto life (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:45).

True. But that doesn’t require natural/organic union; it requires covenantal union—which does not demand Adam as the first human. Existing outside Adam’s lineage does not fracture human unity anymore than existing outside Christ’s lineage.



[1] For example, “The logic is tight.” That is a known LLM meta-assessment trope. Humans typically demonstrate tight logic rather than declare it mid-argument, whereas AI frequently inserts these evaluative signposts to frame coherence. Another example: The trilemmas with parenthetical refutations is very characteristic of AI reasoning patterns.
 
Just as an aside: I can detect AI-generated content in your response. [1] Arguing with AI is okay—I get into it with ChatGPT a lot—but I would prefer that you indicate which content is yours.

Just to be clear, this is my argument. What I ask AI to do is clean up grammar to provide clarity in my speaking so that I am understand.

I asked it to remove all the you's I said and make sure nothing I said could be construed as accusatory - I started initially with aome you's (it's often just the way I talk) so I asked ChatGPT to remove that type of language.

I also ask it to source my Scripture paraphrases and to add Scripture references - I have Scripture in paraphrases by memory but not by chapter and verses so it's easier to have the AI look up the Scripture itself, it's got the Bible in its memory and paraphrases tells it all it needs to look it up so I've taken the easy way out there.

Also, I gave it Wallace's Greek Grammar, beyond the basics and a Hebrew Lexicon and I ask it to add anything helpful, but I'm thinking nothing to not much was added here.

I did ask it to sharpen my logical argument more, as it originally seemed a little weaker but it didn't change very much, a couple lines of argument.

I have been working on this for a while, since I first saw you give your population argument because it's a main problem I have with your argument.

I've never read the scholar you mentioned, that's one of the reasons I asked you for a potential reading list. I've never seen any of these arguments. I don't believe in evolution and have never read arguments either for or against outside of your posts.
.
I started reading your posts because I respect your opinion and you are the first believer I have ever met that believes in evolution.

That's what AI does for me. It's my eyes and my grammar check.

I can skip using a but I won't be able to do as much because I still can't see. I talk too much and have a tendency to meander, AI does fix that.
 
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Amen to that. I hope you don't mind my jumping in here and taking this from where my understanding lies. Perhaps it will be something positive for everyone, myself included.

Romans 5, in my reading of Scripture, does not portray Adam as a merely elected representative chosen from among pre-existing humans. Paul's reasoning demands a deeper, organic unity: all humanity derivatively present in Adam as its natural head.

The logic is tight: Through one man's trespass, condemnation came to all; death spread to all because all sinned (Rom. 5:12, ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον). This only holds if humanity flows from Adam as its source—the headwaters of the race—not as parallel lines independent of him.

Scripture reinforces this elsewhere: God "made from one man every nation of mankind" (Acts 17:26), and genealogies trace back to Adam as "the son of God" (Luke 3:38).If Adam instead emerged from or was selected into a pre-existing biological population, Paul's framework unravels. Pre-Adamites would either:
  • Share in guilt without organic connection to Adam's sin (arbitrary and unjust),
  • Remain innocent while Adam introduces sin (contradicting universality: sin/death through "one man"),
  • Or exist outside Adam's lineage entirely (fracturing human unity and implying multiple origins, contra Acts 17:26).
No option fits Scripture.The premier biblical analogy is Hebrews 7:9–10: Levi "paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor." This is covenantal-seminal realism: Levi truly participated because seminally present in Abraham as progenitor—not mere appointee. Paul applies the same to Adam: "By one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:19); "in Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22). "In Adam" (ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ) is union language—both federal and natural.

Historic Reformed theology affirms this dual headship: remove the natural/organic, and the federal becomes ungrounded and arbitrary.

Population-origin models face insoluble dilemmas:
  • If the population was sinful pre-Adam, Adam introduces nothing (Romans 5 collapses).
  • If innocent, guilt attaches without organic unity (unjust).
  • If only descendants are guilty, universality fails—some humans escape sin's origin in "one man," undermining redemption's scope.
Finally, the Adam-Christ typology demands Adam as the first man, not a selected one. Adam heads the old creation unto death; Christ, the last Adam, heads the new unto life (Rom. 5:14; 1 Cor. 15:45). Fracture Adam's sole progeniture, and humanity's unity splinters—Christ redeems one lineage among many.

Yet just as we are "in Christ" by vital union, so all were "in Adam" by origin.

Typology requires symmetry: Christ fulfills what Adam began as the head of all humanity.

This is pretty good stuff, Hazel...

I noticed a couple things that I have come across. The Christian geneticist R Carter(?) was studying DNA historically when he came across the realization that there is a bottleneck at Noah's generation. This means that Paul in Acts 17 might have meant Noah as the one man (not in Rom 5, but just in Acts 17). Greek culture had the Deucalion narrative about a very, very similar flood, which Peter partly validated in 2 Peter 3, referring to Tartarus. Notice how Acts 17's talk ends, with God judging the world through another single man, Christ, hinting at a parallel to Noah. It can thus provide another indication that the apostles considered their generation to be the last; that the world needed warning, like Noah to his generation. This was expected right after the destruction of Jerusalem, Lk 23:28.

2, the Hebrew verbs about the sudden, abrupt arrival of life by God's hand in creation week, use the robust form 'swarm with swarms.' Because of that, and because there are the references to 'making a city' among other cities as soon as Cain's sin (that's very early!), I have come to believe that other people were formed at the same time, though not all were put in proximity to the garden and its tree, to that temptation. Likewise other life was simultaneously created, trees, birds, animals, etc, across the globe.
 
Technically, and for the sake of completeness, that is a false dilemma. There is a third option:
  • A person can neither affirm nor deny that God created the world (i.e., “I don’t know”).
Such a person could admit that a creator is more probable than not, yet be unable to affirm such a proposition apart from being convinced.
Technically, there is a 3rd to the 2nd place option

A person can absolutely affirm evolution as both initial conditon and process then affirm Genesis as liturgy, allegory, myth
There are propositons that are anathema to faith such as:
"There were men before Adam but not men, because no one told them what sin was, they were innocent of sin."
The fact that man has a conscious is a defining characteristic of man, therefore a man without conscious is not man, so by all the convuluted arguments that abound, the men before Adam were not men, merely apes in man clothing.

The premise of this option is that Evolution is Absolutely True. the One Truth and Genesis, to be true, must conform to evolution

There is the 3rd to the 3rd place option

A person can affirm the theory of evolution is myth storytelling, speculation.
Evolution stands or falls on its own.
To blend the two is not meant to lend "scientific" to Genesis but to tack an incoherent theory onto a Truth (Genesis) and thereby lend the theory legitimacy.
 
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Technically, there is a 3rd to the 2nd place option

A person can absolutely affirm evolution as both initial conditon and process then affirm Genesis as liturgy, allegory, myth
There are propositons that are anathema to faith such as:
"There were men before Adam but not men, because no one told them what sin was, they were innocent of sin."
The fact that man has a conscious is a defining characteristic of man, therefore a man without conscious is not man, so by all the convuluted arguments that abound, the men before Adam were not men, merely apes in man clothing.

The premise of this option is that Evolution is Absolutely True. the One Truth and Genesis, to be true, must conform to evolution

There is the 3rd to the 3rd place option

A person can affirm the theory of evolution is myth storytelling, speculation.
Evolution stands or falls on its own.
To blend the two is not meant to lend "scientific" to Genesis but to tack an incoherent theory onto a Truth (Genesis) and thereby lend the theory legitimacy.


I don't know of any evolutionists who are the least concerned of legitimacy and Genesis is the last place they would beg from.
 
Just to be clear: this is my argument. … I did ask it to sharpen my logical argument more …

When you asked the AI reasoning model to sharpen the logic of your argument, it went a bit further than you intended and ended up pressing the argument in a way that doesn’t fully align with your own Reformed commitments. That is simply one of the dangers of using a tool that has no theological convictions of its own: AI can introduce theological drift without realizing it. That is why I interacted with the argument as if it belonged to “Airm,” not you. I am familiar with your theological commitments.

But that is also why I took the argument seriously and interacted with it, because I knew the core of it represented your concern, namely, the need for Adam and Eve to be the sole progenitors of mankind. (It is a familiar Reformed objection.)

I also ask it to source my Scripture paraphrases and to add Scripture references. I have Scripture in paraphrases by memory but not by chapter and verses, so it's easier to have the AI look up the scriptures itself. It has the Bible in its memory and paraphrases tell it all it needs to look it up. So, I've taken the easy way out there.

And that is totally okay. I often use it for exactly that reason. For example, I will ask it something like, “Where in the Bible does it say that God chose a set number of Gentiles?” Because I have a vague memory of Romans 11:25 (cf. Acts 15:14) but it’s not clear enough for me to locate it myself.

I have been working on this for a while—since I first saw you give your population argument—because it's a main problem I have with your argument.

That is why I think a continued exchange between us would be helpful—not only to ourselves (I truly do love having my argument scrutinized for any holes), but to the readers as well. Honestly, I don’t mind people using AI—it is unavoidable, really—but I prefer knowing where the content shifts to AI, and mostly because I don’t want to attribute to the author any errors the AI makes. (It does make errors often. I had DeepSeek swearing up and down that Charlie Kirk was not murdered but still alive and well. Utterly delusional.)

I've never read the scholar you mentioned. That's one of the reasons I asked you for a potential reading list.

I believe you are referring to S. Joshua Swamidass, whose book I referenced in my last post. [1] But in that DM exchange you asked for a list of reading materials you should familiarize yourself with before discussing evolution with me, adding that you “care nothing for any books that aren’t dealing with Scripture itself.” As I said at the time, that requirement effectively reduces the reading list to zero—because “the Bible is not concerned with biology or natural history in the modern sense. Scripture simply has nothing to say about evolution; its subject is Christ and redemptive history.”

Quid scriptura dicat (what Scripture says): If you want to know how I understand Genesis 1–3, there are excellent books on how those chapters function theologically within Scripture itself: sacred space, covenant, the image of God, federal headship, and the Christological trajectory of it all. That inquiry belongs to hermeneutics and exegesis. It asks, “What does this text say, and how does it say it?” It does not adjudicate evolutionary science, because that question lies outside the scope of the text (redemptive history).

Quid credendum sit (what must be believed): If you want to know how I understand evolutionary science and natural history in light of Scripture and within Reformed theological commitments, there are excellent books on that, too. [2] But that inquiry necessarily operates at the level of dogmatics, asking, “Given the whole of Scripture, what must be affirmed (or ruled out)?” Natural history is the stage, not the play. Redemptive history is the play, the main character of which is Christ. In other words, the cross governs history teleologically, standing over it as its ordained telos (i.e., nature is structurally cruciform).

Natural history is not redemptive history—these are distinct categories—but it’s also not theologically indifferent. The world unfolds under a cruciform providence: death, limitation, and futility belong to the structure of the world as ordained within a decree that included judgment and promise, anticipating the eschatological consummation secured in Christ, the hub on which all of history turns.

I've never seen any of these arguments. I don't believe in evolution and have never read arguments either for or against outside of your posts.

Then let me reiterate here a refrain that is common for me: I have no interest in converting anyone to this view. My interest lies only in exploring any weaknesses that this view could possibly have, either theologically or biblically. If it withstands valid and legitimate scrutiny, then I will be most pleased—even if nobody else adopts this view.

I started reading your posts because I respect your opinion and you are the first believer I have ever met that believes in evolution.

I genuinely appreciate the sentiment, my beloved sister in Christ. I hope that I can continue earning that respect (although I know you operate on the principle of Christ-centered grace, not merit).

I can skip using AI, but I won't be able to do as much because I still can't see. I talk too much and have a tendency to meander; AI does fix that.

Please, don’t feel pressured to stop using AI. Again, I use it myself in many ways—daily, in fact, when checking my writing for compliance with the Chicago Manual of Style. As I said, I just want to know where the content shifts to AI “because I don’t want to attribute to the author any errors the AI makes.”



[1] S. Joshua Swamidass, The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry (IVP Academic, 2019).

[2] For example, Gijsbert van den Brink, Reformed Theology and Evolutionary Theory (Eerdmans, 2020). I also highly recommend Denis R. Alexander, Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose?, 2nd ed. (Oxford: Monarch, 2014). But, again, these are not dealing with Scripture so much as theology.
 
A person can absolutely affirm evolution as both initial condition and process, then affirm Genesis as liturgy, allegory, myth.

Just to be perfectly clear: I understand Genesis 1 alone to be liturgical, not chapters 2 or 3 or the rest of Genesis.

There are propositons that are anathema to faith such as:
  • "There were men before Adam but not men, because no one told them what sin was, they were innocent of sin."
The fact that man has a conscious is a defining characteristic of man, therefore a man without conscious is not man. So, by all the convuluted arguments that abound, the men before Adam were not men, merely apes in man clothing.

For what it’s worth, I would argue against that position, too.

The premise of this option is that Evolution is Absolutely True. the One Truth and Genesis, to be true, must conform to evolution

That is definitely anathema!

There is the 3rd to the 3rd place option
  • A person can affirm the theory of evolution is myth storytelling, speculation.

Actually, that sounds like it would fall under the second option (theistic evolutionist).
 
Actually, that sounds like it would fall under the second option (theistic evolutionist
Evolution doesn't have any more to do with Theistic than Grimms fairy tales.

Affirming Grimms Fairy Tales as myth, storytelling and speculation (entertainment for the masses) isn't any part of Theistic.
Affirming the Theory of Evolution is myth, storytelling and speculation (entertainment for the masses) has nothing to do with Theistic.
 
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I don’t think a person who insists on their view and prohibits dissent should be on staff here.

For the record:
  • I do not prohibit dissent. Moreover, I do not prohibit anything.
  • It is the rules that contain prohibitions, and nowhere is dissent one of the things prohibited.
  • Misrepresenting the views of others is prohibited, though.
  • All moderators, including myself, enforce those rules—including 2.2.
MOD HAT: Since this line of discussion violates the rules, anything further in this vein will be moved to the Questions/Concerns/Suggestions forum, which is designed for precisely these concerns.

It seems like, at a minimum, if a staff person are going to hold a view, they should be able to explain calmly. Like the pastoral letters say.

Feel free to quote where I lost my composure. I will not hold my breath, though, because my record for explaining my view calmly is pretty established.
 
Just to be perfectly clear: I understand Genesis 1 alone to be liturgical, not chapters 2 or 3 or the rest of Genesis.
To be perfectly clear, I define Theistic Evolutionist to be people who are raised in a religion such as Christian, then taught evolution.
I was taught evolution strictly without any reference to god or gods who were myths created in the mind of man through fear and ignorance to explain natural forces and morals were speculation about chemicals in the brain or cultural, nature versus nuture.
However, there are some very serious problems with evolution.

1) Like begets Like. Natural fact.

Darwin claimed Like begets UnLike
GMO and other genetic manipulation has resulted in 3 results for both the claim and the methods. The Unlike 1) is sterile Or 2) reverts to type (repairs the damage) 3) deselected (dies)

2) And Darin claimed the begetting took a very very long time
However, most processes evolution has claimed took a billion billion years can be done in day or weeks under the same initial condition and procecesses.

That raises an interesting question
If the evolutionary processes can be done in a few weeks or days, then why don't we see any evolution?
The Darwinist answer is that it is toooo slow to see.
Evolution being so slow may be because evolution is not happening and we can wait around until the hot place freezes over to prove or disprove that assertion, according to Darwin.
 
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