• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

A Question for the Evolutionist (of any stripe)

J Bauer sought an example of:
and (b) someone substituting macroevolution for microevolution.

Just to clear up some confusion before trying to find this: the problem would be the person who assumes that a million cases of micro mean that macro took place. I have listened for 5 decades and I don't recall any one saying one is the other. But if a person does not believe in God the creator, one of the main reasons is macroevolution; that the universe has an inherent life-force in it (this dates back at least to the German 'vril'--the inherent force in life to dominate, of which German monism believed the Aryan race was the prime example; this is where the term co-evolution began, whether Haeckl flopped or not), that through mutation life forms have gradually become more complex and the 'proof' of this is said to be the LTEE. All you have to do is look at the latest panspermia theory to see what they think happened here, that 'nature' just happen to hit earth when it ejaculated life particles around. And the same happened here and there around the universe.
 
[Google AI said:] Yes, scientific theories are based on hypotheses. But a theory is a well-substantiated explanation that has been extensively tested and supported by a vast amount of evidence, while a hypothesis is a tentative, testable explanation that serves as a starting point for an investigation. Essentially, a hypothesis is the precursor to a theory; it's an educated guess that, if repeatedly supported by experiments, can evolve into a full-fledged theory.

Google AI was wrong—unsurprisingly. However, since a semantic debate is off-topic, I have responded to Google’s claim in a separate thread (here).

Have we repeatedly tested and observed evolution?

Yes.

Think of the heliocentric theory of our solar system. We have these really strange but regular motions of celestial objects in the sky. How do we make sense of what we’re seeing? That is the role of a theory. It makes sense of—and predicts—these planetary (i.e., “wandering”) paths across our sky. It is “just a theory” but it explains the data so well that we can intercept planets with satellites and rovers, land scientific instruments on distant comets, and even calculate the location and orbit of tiny Kuiper belt objects several billion kilometers away with enough accuracy to perform a relatively close photographic fly-by (e.g., 486958 Arrokoth). Whatever the truth turns out to be, heliocentrism certainly approximates it more closely than any other theory ever has. It may be just a theory, but it’s the best scientific explanation we have for all these observations that are true. We had observable evidence in need of an explanation. Whether or not the theory itself is true, the evidence that the theory explains certainly is true.

The same thing applies to evolution. Whether or not it’s true, the theory is the best scientific explanation we have for all these things that are true—the empirical facts of paleontology, population and developmental genetics, biogeography, molecular biology, paleoanthropology, and so on. These are the observations made of the real world. But how are we to understand and make sense of all these categorically different observations being made? That is the role of a scientific theory, a conceptual structure that provides a way of organizing, interpreting, and understanding the massive wealth of data we possess, drawing all the relevant facts together into a coherent scientific model that makes sense of them or explains them—an explanation so powerful that it makes predictions which result in new, previously unknown evidence being discovered (e.g., Tiktaalik)—which then adds to the credibility of the theory.

What were our initial observations?

I believe it was natural philosophers (as scientists were then called) observing that organisms could be grouped into nested hierarchies based on shared traits. Why is it that mammals resemble other mammals more than reptiles, and reptiles resemble other reptiles more than insects? Why do we observe structured pattern rather than chaos? There were also biogeographical observations, the fact that distinct yet related species clustered geographically (e.g., Australian marsupials). Artificial selection was raising questions, too, with farmers and breeders demonstrating that selective pressure could dramatically alter organisms within observable timeframes. And there were, of course, discoveries being made in the fossil record.

Those are just some of the initial observations.

Side note: Interestingly, Darwin did not invent the theory of evolution. The notion that species change over time long predates him. Greek thinkers such as Anaximander and Empedocles suggested over two thousand years ago that life originated in simpler, aquatic forms and developed into more complex land forms. In the early eighteenth century, Benoît de Maillet was among the first modern writers to argue explicitly that species are not fixed, proposing that life arose in the sea and that land animals descended from aquatic ancestors. Compte de Buffon later entertained the possibility of species transformation, and Erasmus Darwin proposed a form of common descent in Zoonomia. Diderot speculated that organisms might change in response to their environment, though he never articulated a coherent mechanism or a systematic theory. The first full evolutionary system before Darwin was Lamarck’s (1809), which wrongly grounded change in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. What Darwin and Wallace contributed—independently—was the first rigorous mechanism of evolution: natural selection, a population-level explanatory framework integrating variation, heritability, differential survival, and divergence. That is what transformed scattered ‘transformist’ ideas into a mature scientific theory of evolution.
 
By reusing the term “descent,” I would say your restatement is inaccurate.

Then your argument is with @CrowCross, for he is the one who used that term (“descent with modification from a lesser ancestor”). The only thing I addressed (and changed) was the word “lesser” (to “common”) because it does not belong in science.

Your statement just above this, about the indistinguishability of life, violates a very strong theme in the Bible you are reading—that “kinds” are not to be mixed.

I don’t know where you’re getting this “indistinguishability of life” from, but it wasn’t something I said. (This is why you’re supposed to quote the person to whom you are responding.) Life most certainly is distinguishable. Just ask Linnaeus.

And I have never said anything about “kinds,” primarily because I have no idea what that term is even supposed to mean. Young-earth creationists are infamous for not defining that term, with some creationists saying it means x and other creationists saying it means y (and still others saying it means x sometimes and means y other times). What I use are terms like species, genus, family, order, and so on.

[Kinds being mixed] is a perversion that is identified about the ante-deluvian society and, through that, becomes prohibited in Moses law.

Please provide a biblical reference for this claim about antediluvian society, that they mixed kinds. I am aware of the ‘amalgamation’ view of Ellen G. White (illicit hybridization before the flood), but you are not a Seventh-Day Adventist.

As you may know, many pagan cultures around the world (e.g., Squamish, near Seattle) have a narrative that men mixed species, that this was a form of evil and turned into further evil, and that the Creator had to intervene and end it. The name for this activity translates as ‘form-changing.’

No, I don’t know that. This is the first time I’ve heard such a thing. As a skeptic, I will obviously dig into this.

Unless you’re talking about shape-shifters, which I do know something about (vis-à-vis Pacific Northwest Coast religions). And mythic shapeshifting is a totally different thing from cross-species hybridization.

I would like to know if Bauer has responded to the Seegert presentation on mutation, requested several months ago. … These are at the Youtube channel of Apologetics Forum of Snohomish County, WA.

Yes, I did—several months ago (2025, Aug 27).

Were the 70% of Christians who accept biological evolution asked about the offset I feature?

I have no idea what that means. What offset?

[Re: natural history] When was the ‘spreading out’ and why was there no life between the spreading out and Genesis 1?

Honestly, I don’t understand your view at all, which severely limits my ability to answer questions that involve it.

Why is Genesis 1 in the form of a natural history description, if it was about covenantal redemption?

I don’t accept your premise that Genesis 1 was “in the form of a natural history description.”

If your real interest is only in citations, why do you bother spending time here where [we] don’t have them and may not be able to produce them?

My real interest is the truth. I ask for cited quotes because I want to know that the person really said what you’re claiming he said. As I have demonstrated before (2025, Aug 28), you have proven yourself to be an unreliable source for things that were said or done. That is why I ask for cited quotes: I am interested in the truth.

There is a classic error about handling biblical truth, that of placing a theology system in charge of the text. I did not expect to find a person placing ‘natural history’ as a theology in charge of a text which is by all accounts an ordinary (not metaphoric) description of nature!

I don’t know where you encountered such a person. I have certainly never placed natural history as a theology—which is a fundamentally incoherent idea—much less in charge of any biblical text.

It is certainly possible, however, that you have misunderstood my position.

This goes back to some of my original questions about your posts—whether you understood what Schaeffer meant by neo-orthodox theology and its implications.

—which is a question that I answered.
 
Not one of the 70%—let me repeat: not one (which includes you)—can explain the fall of mankind and our sin nature.

Yes, I can. And I would start with Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15.

The problem of your assumed 70% …

It’s not assumed. That number is derived from polling.

… you have to walk away from, or allegorize, what is presented in Genesis in order to follow your atheistic-based religion of evolutionism.

[MOD HAT: This is a violation of rule 5.2. Any repeat violation of this rule will incur a formal warning and points.]

As the record clearly demonstrates, I fully embrace what is presented in Genesis. The interpretation under which I operate simply differs from that under which you operate.

We’re suppose to have ‘faith’ in man’s fallible science …

According to whom? Not me, nor you—nor anyone else in these forums.

I wonder how many "Christians" will also proclaim Jesus didn't resurrect from the dead because science has clearly demonstrated that it's impossible.

That’s a curious thing to wonder about. But, hey, you do you.
 
Violation of rule 5.2. Accused member of interpreting Scripture using atheistic science.
As the record clearly demonstrates, I fully embrace what is presented in Genesis. The interpretation under which I operate simply differs from that under which you operate.
Te premise from which you inteperate....isn't biblical. It's based upon atheistic science.

I've asked you several questions and you still haven't answered.
 
The premise from which you inteperate....isn't biblical. It's based upon atheistic science.

I don’t know what word you meant to type there. In either case, the premise from which I “interpret” or “operate” is not based on atheistic science—which would be metaphysical naturalism, something for which I have no use or tolerance. I am a Christian who subscribes to Reformed confessional orthodoxy; I have already presupposed the triune God of Scripture long before I get to science.

I have asked you several questions and you still haven't answered.

I saw you pose questions for a theistic evolutionist. Since I am a creationist, not an evolutionist, those were not questions for me to answer. If you had questions for me somewhere, I missed them.
 
J Bauer sought an example of:
and (b) someone substituting macroevolution for microevolution.

Just to clear up some confusion before trying to find this: the problem would be the person who assumes that a million cases of micro mean that macro took place. I have listened for 5 decades and I don't recall any one saying one is the other. But if a person does not believe in God the creator, one of the main reasons is macroevolution; that the universe has an inherent life-force in it (this dates back at least to the German 'vril'--the inherent force in life to dominate, of which German monism believed the Aryan race was the prime example; this is where the term co-evolution began, whether Haeckl flopped or not), that through mutation life forms have gradually become more complex and the 'proof' of this is said to be the LTEE. All you have to do is look at the latest panspermia theory to see what they think happened here, that 'nature' just happen to hit earth when it ejaculated life particles around. And the same happened here and there around the universe.
Mod Hat: Use the @ sign when referring to other members in posts.
 
I don’t know what word you meant to type there. In either case, the premise from which I “interpret” or “operate” is not based on atheistic science—which would be metaphysical naturalism, something for which I have no use or tolerance.

You leave plenty of room in Genesis for evolutionism to be the way life was created...leaving its path fossilized in the stones. That is atheistic science. Sorry if you disagree.
I am a Christian who subscribes to Reformed confessional orthodoxy; I have already presupposed the triune God of Scripture long before I get to science.
Good for you. I'll look for you in the rapture.
I saw you pose questions for a theistic evolutionist. Since I am a creationist, not an evolutionist, those were not questions for me to answer. If you had questions for me somewhere, I missed them.
What do you mean by "creationist"?
Adam was made from the dust the Eve from Adams side?
The sun was made on day 4?
A day is 24 hours long?
The animals were formed fully formed?
.....as I said...What do you mean by "creationist"?
 
You leave plenty of room in Genesis for evolutionism to be the way life was created, leaving its path fossilized in the stones.

[MOD HAT: That is a violation of rule 2.2. Any repeat violation of this rule will incur a formal warning and points.]

This is false. As I said explicitly and very clearly, “I emphatically reject that view. Evolution does not map onto Genesis.”

That is atheistic science. Sorry if you disagree.

No, it is not. I will allow Denis R. Alexander to answer here, since he did so more clearly than I could:

There is nothing that I can see in evolutionary theory that supports atheism. Of course, if we view evolution through an atheistic lens, we shall inevitably interpret it within an atheistic framework, as Dawkins does when he writes that in evolution he sees “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.” How could it be otherwise? The conclusions are built into the starting presupposition. This is what the atheistic worldview delivers; it is not what evolution itself delivers. …

When I walk into my laboratory I do not suddenly stop believing in God—far from it, I go in as the Christian explorer looking forward to uncovering more of the wonders of God’s world. The more we discover, the more we glorify God by revealing his thoughts in the created order.

We don’t call Christian accountants “naturalistic” because of the absence of theological terminology as they check the company accounts, any more than we expect our doctor to use theological language when she tells us that we’ve got the flu, or the mechanic to refer to biblical texts when servicing our car. The absence of specific references to God does not render our lives suddenly “naturalistic.” Quite the opposite: Christians walking with God in the power of the Spirit will be only too aware of God’s presence and leading, permeating every aspect of their daily lives. Naturalism is the philosophy that there is no God in the first place, so only an atheist can provide truly naturalistic explanations for anything.

Denis R. Alexander, Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose?, 2nd ed. (Oxford: Monarch, 2014), pp. 213–217.

What do you mean by "creationist"?

Evolutionary creationism is a form of old-earth creationism, referring to the conviction that the earth is ancient and that God is its creator and sustainer; within that broad category, progressive creationism rejects evolution while evolutionary creationism affirms it.

That being said, a creationist is someone who believes that the universe, and particularly Earth and its biodiversity, is the creation of God (creatio ex nihilo) who sustains it every moment by the word of his power (creatio continua). And evolution is a scientific explanation of the origin of species by descent with modification from a common ancestor.

An evolutionary creationist, then, is someone who holds both as true.

Good for you. I'll look for you in the rapture.

I will look for you in Paradise, but there will not be a rapture of saints being removed from the earth.
 
Then your argument is with @CrowCross, for he is the one who used that term (“descent with modification from a lesser ancestor”). The only thing I addressed (and changed) was the word “lesser” (to “common”) because it does not belong in science.



I don’t know where you’re getting this “indistinguishability of life” from, but it wasn’t something I said. (This is why you’re supposed to quote the person to whom you are responding.) Life most certainly is distinguishable. Just ask Linnaeus.

And I have never said anything about “kinds,” primarily because I have no idea what that term is even supposed to mean. Young-earth creationists are infamous for not defining that term, with some creationists saying it means x and other creationists saying it means y (and still others saying it means x sometimes and means y other times). What I use are terms like species, genus, family, order, and so on.



Please provide a biblical reference for this claim about antediluvian society, that they mixed kinds. I am aware of the ‘amalgamation’ view of Ellen G. White (illicit hybridization before the flood), but you are not a Seventh-Day Adventist.



No, I don’t know that. This is the first time I’ve heard such a thing. As a skeptic, I will obviously dig into this.

Unless you’re talking about shape-shifters, which I do know something about (vis-à-vis Pacific Northwest Coast religions). And mythic shapeshifting is a totally different thing from cross-species hybridization.



Yes, I did—several months ago (2025, Aug 27).



I have no idea what that means. What offset?



Honestly, I don’t understand your view at all, which severely limits my ability to answer questions that involve it.



I don’t accept your premise that Genesis 1 was “in the form of a natural history description.”



My real interest is the truth. I ask for cited quotes because I want to know that the person really said what you’re claiming he said. As I have demonstrated before (2025, Aug 28), you have proven yourself to be an unreliable source for things that were said or done. That is why I ask for cited quotes: I am interested in the truth.



I don’t know where you encountered such a person. I have certainly never placed natural history as a theology—which is a fundamentally incoherent idea—much less in charge of any biblical text.

It is certainly possible, however, that you have misunderstood my position.



—which is a question that I answered.

@John Bauer
Honestly, I don’t understand your view at all, which severely limits my ability to answer questions that involve it.

The offset and my view have been summarized. So again (since I can't mention the other thing here):

1, The English is an unfortunate way to make conclusions about Gen 1. Transliteration is key.
2, There is a literary style documented by Cassuto in FROM ADAM TO NOAH, which has to do with the early tribe's verbal recitation of their origins. Part of that style is the heading. A heading is not action;, it is a section title.
3, 1:2 as confirmed by the LXX rabbis was describing a pre-existing situation, just as Rebekkah's youth and beauty and relatives were described in her chapter, before the action of the story.
4, Since Job-Psalms-Isaiah regularly mention a spreading out event (about the universe), and know that earth 'hangs upon nothing', and since the verb 'spreading out' (from agriculture, planting) differs sharply from the deliberate placing of the local objects, the event which brought the lifeless distant objects into being was random and separate and earlier than Creation Week. The next nearest usage of the verb for setting the local objects is when Eve placed the apple in Adam's hand.
5, the earth before Day 1 was in such darkness that none of the distant light was reflecting off its waters yet. That is a timestamp. On Day 1 some light appeared. The day was marked by the showing of Sirius. More would come later. The timestamp is a piece that can solve the amount of time between 'spreading out' and Day 1. While its light takes 9 years to arrive, the question of the distance from our galaxy to the apparent 'center' of a 'spreading out' is a range in thousands.
6, the local objects were placed on the 4th. To show that he did not mean the distant ones, these objects are 'shama' while the distant ones are merely mentioned in a dangling afterthought as the 'kavov.' The 'kavov' are not mentioned again until ch 15 when they are representing the vast number of Abraham's seed that would be in Christ (to use all Biblical information about this, Gal 3).
7, All this is explained to Adam on Day 6 when all local systems are in place and complete, and thriving, and being curious, Adam wanted to know how. God explained it, as the passage says, a transcript.

(I have not included that the LXX rabbis believed that the earth was 'submerged' which explains the water, but does not tell us totally of prior activity like the internally rhyming 'tohu wa-bohu' indicates. Ps 104 and 2 Peter 3 show us a water-berthed earth, but not in enough detail to say if some prior event was the reason for this, as with the cataclysm. We do know from 2P3 that the 'stoicheians' worshipped the earth as a perfectly uninterrupted object, which Peter was quick to disrupt 3 times (creation, cataclysm and 2nd coming are all interventions from a 'uniform' existence).

8, the custody of the text is fairly tight; Adam preserves it until Noah; Noah until a few son's sons pass it on to Abraham.

The passage is a natural history narrative into which God acts. Ps 104 confirms that His activity was on the surface of things already there, describing creation as an event like the cataclysm, unless you conclude it means only the cataclysm. The image of God which humans have, means the place is God's as a possession; 'the earth is the Lord's and all it contains.' Ancient kings placed 'images' as boundary-markers. It connects to other celestial knowledge by holding the timestamp of Sirius about Day 1 light, by not exceeding the furthest readings back of C14 (@ 56K), and that there are lists of features of the local objects which show they are recently made (ocean salinity, the 'shine' of Saturn's surfaces, the radiation level of Jupiter, etc). Another list deals with the 'spreading out' (the spiralized shape of galaxies, geologic earth layers not affected by the 'recent' cataclysm etc). The last I recall, a Norwegian survey put the 'surface' as the outer 9km. It takes disruptive events to make fossils.

I differ from YECs because of the information in 1:2. If it is lifeless, I have no problem with extending the amount of time backwards. That is my offset; earth is there but lifeless until Creation Week. Astronomer S Psarris says that Gen 1 is not referring to microbials, and I would agree, because he does not hold that they 'developed' into Creation Week's results in a naturalistic sense.

In September 2025, I was able to speak with Joel Brown of the Glendale, AZ, CRS, and at the end, the question came back to what a 'gap' was and whether the verse implied additional time. It is unfortunate for his YEC view, I think, that at the point, he came back to 'because it is the Word.' What I mean is that he meant 'it is the English word' and my 7 years in advanced study of Greek and LXX and Josephus was not recognized, while he was not familiar with the Hebrew word choices. I hope he will see that exploring by transliteration will not lead to embracing naturalistic evolutionary cosmology.
 
Violation of CCAM Forums Rules & Guidelines (2.1) and (2.2). Repeatedly misrepresents the views of others.
[MOD HAT: That is a violation of rule 2.2. Any repeat violation of this rule will incur a formal warning and points.]

This is false. As I said explicitly and very clearly, “I emphatically reject that view. Evolution does not map onto Genesis.”
In this post of yours you said..."Yes, all creatures are the result of evolutionary processes, "

How is that a violation of rule 2.2?
No, it is not. I will allow Denis R. Alexander to answer here, since he did so more clearly than I could:

There is nothing that I can see in evolutionary theory that supports atheism. Of course, if we view evolution through an atheistic lens, we shall inevitably interpret it within an atheistic framework, as Dawkins does when he writes that in evolution he sees “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.” How could it be otherwise? The conclusions are built into the starting presupposition. This is what the atheistic worldview delivers; it is not what evolution itself delivers. …

When I walk into my laboratory I do not suddenly stop believing in God—far from it, I go in as the Christian explorer looking forward to uncovering more of the wonders of God’s world. The more we discover, the more we glorify God by revealing his thoughts in the created order.

We don’t call Christian accountants “naturalistic” because of the absence of theological terminology as they check the company accounts, any more than we expect our doctor to use theological language when she tells us that we’ve got the flu, or the mechanic to refer to biblical texts when servicing our car. The absence of specific references to God does not render our lives suddenly “naturalistic.” Quite the opposite: Christians walking with God in the power of the Spirit will be only too aware of God’s presence and leading, permeating every aspect of their daily lives. Naturalism is the philosophy that there is no God in the first place, so only an atheist can provide truly naturalistic explanations for anything.

Denis R. Alexander, Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose?, 2nd ed. (Oxford: Monarch, 2014), pp. 213–217.
How does Denis R. Alexander explain the arrival of mankind...Adam and Eve?

From what I read.... Alexander advocates for theistic evolution, a position that holds that God used the process of evolution to bring about the diversity of life on Earth, including humans. This perspective acknowledges the scientific evidence for evolution while maintaining that God is the ultimate cause and sustainer of the universe.

How does Alexander square this with the account of creation presented in Genesis and other verses of the bible?

Alexander suggest that the entrance of sin and suffering into the world, as described in the Christian narrative of the Fall, is a result of humanity's misuse of free will......where does the bible teach this?

It appears Alexander is using the atheistic T.o.E. as a model...then tries to use the bible as a means of explaining the fall changing what is presented in Genesis to shoe horn it into evolutionism contradicting biblical knowledge.
[MOD EDIT: Rules-violating content struck.]

Evolutionary creationism is a form of old-earth creationism, referring to the conviction that the earth is ancient and that God is its creator and sustainer; within that broad category, progressive creationism rejects evolution while evolutionary creationism affirms it.
The problem is Alexander and you severely distorts Genesis...which would include the world wide flood...which answers the critics of Genesis in favor of evolutionism.
That being said, a creationist is someone who believes that the universe, and particularly Earth and its biodiversity, is the creation of God (creatio ex nihilo) who sustains it every moment by the word of his power (creatio continua). And evolution is a scientific explanation of the origin of species by descent with modification from a common ancestor.
Which as I mentioned and have mentioned distorts genesis and forces it to conform to the atheistic model of the formation of earth and the plants and creatures that reside on earth.
[MOD EDIT: Rules-violating content struck.]
An evolutionary creationist, then, is someone who holds both as true.
It presents a contradictory view...where the account presented in Gen 1 and 2 as well as Gen 7 to not be true.
I will look for you in Paradise, but there will not be a rapture of saints being removed from the earth.
Once again your views contradict 1 Thes 4:13-18
 
Last edited by a moderator:
re local tribe creation narrative distinguishes distant universe from local objects
As it happens, I was in downtown Juneau yesterday and a friend wanted a picture of a city banner and its totems about the local tribe's creation beliefs and an 1800s breach of Lake Taku which flooded the area.

The original one from 10 years ago that I saw on a visit was gone. A new one has replaced it, mostly about the carvings themselves. However a short paragraph explains this:

Raven (the clever Creator) captured the sun and moon and later released them to their spots. He also scattered the distant stars.

I mention this because there is a unity here with the Genesis narrative. It is established enough in tribal memory to be the one feature relating the local objects to the distant ones. Notice the intentionality of the term 'spots' when compared with the random 'scattering' of the distant stars.
 
re local tribe creation narrative distinguishes distant universe from local objects
As it happens, I was in downtown Juneau yesterday and a friend wanted a picture of a city banner and its totems about the local tribe's creation beliefs and an 1800s breach of Lake Taku which flooded the area.

The original one from 10 years ago that I saw on a visit was gone. A new one has replaced it, mostly about the carvings themselves. However a short paragraph explains this:

Raven (the clever Creator) captured the sun and moon and later released them to their spots. He also scattered the distant stars.

I mention this because there is a unity here with the Genesis narrative. It is established enough in tribal memory to be the one feature relating the local objects to the distant ones. Notice the intentionality of the term 'spots' when compared with the random 'scattering' of the distant stars.
I believe this distortion occurred as a result of the Tower of Babel and the spreading of mankind across the globe. Through the 'whisper down the lane" process the creation account was severely distorted yet retained some of the truth about creation.
We see the same thing with the many flood accounts as presented by almost every people group in the world.
 
When I first began to discuss these things with @John Bauer, I asked him if he had read Lewis' "Science and Religion" in GOD IN THE DOCK, the analogy of the coin drawer in the office that gains the same coin each day. Lewis said the mathematicians claim that 100 days from now there will be 100 more coins, and if that were the only circumstance, they would be right. (Or, you could say 100 days ago, there were 100 less).

But the hinge of the analogy is that something else has happened and a mathematician cannot explain it. It takes a detective or a psychiatrist. He can quantify how many coins went where, but that's not an explanation, and Genesis 1 is an explanation of the natural order in an ordinary sense.

In the same way, Joseph, Jesus' earthly father, could not account for Mary's pregnancy except to realize that something else had happened.

Something 'else' happened that resulted in the pre-existing condition of earth in 1:2. It was other than the marked seasons and weeks that followed. This alters what we know about fossils, because many layers of geology are altered, and it takes a hydrological event to trap a creature and result in a fossil. They have been found down to 9000km.
 
How is that a violation of rule 2.2?

Because you said that I leave “plenty of room in Genesis for evolutionism,” which so badly misrepresents my view that it actually contradicts it. I couldn’t have stated my position any more clearly, having rejected that notion explicitly and saying, “Evolution does not map onto Genesis.” In other words, my view leaves no room in Genesis for evolution.

How does Denis R. Alexander explain the arrival of mankind...Adam and Eve?

He explores the different viable options in his book, and provides hints of the direction he leans. I provided a complete citation of his book, so you know what to look for at ChristianBooks.com or Amazon.com. If you want the relevant page numbers, I can provide those.

From what I read, Alexander advocates for theistic evolution …

You neglected to cite where you read that.

… a position which holds that God used the process of evolution to bring about the diversity of life on Earth, including humans. This perspective acknowledges the scientific evidence for evolution while maintaining that God is the ultimate cause and sustainer of the universe.

That is not unique to theistic evolution. For example, evolutionary creationists affirm the same thing—the view with which Alexander identifies.

How does Alexander square this with the account of creation presented in Genesis and other verses of the Bible?

He answers that quite comprehensively in his book. Again, if it’s page numbers you need, just ask.

(I am not engaging such questions here because they target Alexander, who is not the topic of this thread.)

Alexander suggest that the entrance of sin and suffering into the world, as described in the Christian narrative of the Fall, is a result of humanity’s misuse of free will. Where does the Bible teach this?

I have a more pertinent question: Where does Alexander suggest that?

It appears Alexander is using the … theory of evolution as a model, then tries to use the Bible as a means of explaining the Fall, changing what is presented in Genesis to shoehorn it into evolutionism, contradicting biblical knowledge.

Alexander is using the theory of evolution as a model for what?

And he does not “use” the Bible as a means of explaining the Fall. The Bible itself explains it, and Alexander points the reader to what the Bible says. I doubt you would do any different, if someone asked you about the Fall: You would point to Scripture. Why? Because it’s from the Bible that we learn of the Fall.

The problem is Alexander (and you) severely distorts Genesis, …

Your gross misrepresentation of my view severely distorts Genesis. My actual view does not.

[Your view of evolution], as I mentioned, distorts Genesis …

It can’t distort Genesis because, in my view, evolution and Genesis are addressing categorically different things. Again, “Evolution does not map onto Genesis.”

… and forces it to conform to the atheistic model of the formation of earth and the plants and creatures that reside on Earth.

In your effort to score rhetorical points, you’re not only violating the rules—repeatedly—but also contradicting yourself, labeling my view as theistic evolution and calling it … [checks notes] … atheistic? Alrighty then.

It presents a contradictory view, where the account presented in Genesis 1 and 2 as well as Genesis 7 to not be true.

False. For the last time, evolution does not map onto Genesis.

Once again your views contradict 1 Thes 4:13-18

No, they do not. And this is definitely off-topic.
 
When I first began to discuss these things with John Bauer, I asked him if he had read Lewis’s “Science and Religion” in God In the Dock, the analogy of the coin drawer in the office that gains the same coin each day. Lewis said the mathematicians claim that 100 days from now there will be 100 more coins, and if that were the only circumstance, they would be right. (Or, you could say 100 days ago, there were 100 less).

But the hinge of the analogy is that something else has happened and a mathematician cannot explain it. It takes a detective or a psychiatrist. He can quantify how many coins went where, but that's not an explanation, and Genesis 1 is an explanation of the natural order in an ordinary sense.

In the same way, Joseph, Jesus' earthly father, could not account for Mary's pregnancy except to realize that something else had happened.

Something 'else' happened that resulted in the pre-existing condition of earth in 1:2. It was other than the marked seasons and weeks that followed. This alters what we know about fossils, because many layers of geology are altered, and it takes a hydrological event to trap a creature and result in a fossil. They have been found down to 9000km.

Back when you had asked me that question, I answered in the affirmative because I have that book.

Lewis does not disagree with my position about the laws of nature being a reliable guide for inferring what will happen (or has happened), provided that nothing interferes, he said. “[The laws of nature] can’t tell you whether something is going to interfere,” he said, or has interfered. And I agree with him. To answer how likely nature is to be (or has been) interfered with from outside, he said, “you must go to the metaphysician” (i.e., theologian)—because that is a theological question, not a scientific one. [1] “For Christians,” Moore said, “the facts of nature are the acts of God. Religion relates these facts to God as their Author, science relates them to one another as integral parts of a visible order. Religion does not tell us of their interrelations, science cannot speak of their relation to God.” [2] And that was the whole point of the analogy: The explanatory level must match the kind of question asked. We don’t use science to study what the Bible says, and we don’t use theology to study how nature works. Lewis was distinguishing levels of explanation, which is determined by the nature of the questions being asked.

As for the question as to whether “something happened” prior to Genesis 1:2, that is a textual question answered with biblical exegesis. And you have provided that argument a number of times, an argument I don’t pretend to understand at all.

That being said, my view finds more agreement with Moore than Lewis, for he said that “the common distinction between the natural and the supernatural is unreal and misleading.” I completely agree. If God is providentially sustaining and governing all of creation, then to contemplate divine interference is to sing theologically off-key. It introduces a theological dissonance. Since creation is not in any way autonomous, there is no sense in which God could “interpose” upon himself. As Moore said,

There are not, and cannot be, any divine interventions in nature, for God cannot interfere with himself. His creative activity is present everywhere. There is no division of labor between God and nature, or God and law. … The plant which is produced from seed by the “natural” laws of growth is his creation. … We need hardly stop to remind ourselves how entirely this is in accord with the relation of God and nature, always assumed in the Bible. What strikes us at once, trained as we are in the language of science, is the immediateness with which everything is ascribed to God. He makes the grass to grow upon the mountains. To him the young ravens look up for food. He holds the winds in the hollow of his hand. Not a sparrow falls without his knowledge. He numbers the hairs of our head. Of bird and beast and flower, no less than of man, it is true that in him they ”live and move and have their being.” O Lord, how glorious are thy works! For the Christian theologian the facts of nature are the acts of God. [3]

I don’t see any room in a coherent, self-consistent Reformed theology for a two-tiered ontology of the created order, natural and supernatural. As Alexander observed, “There is only one great ‘dualism’ in biblical thought—that which describes the relationship between God the creator and everything else that exists.” [4] I think this is articulated in Reformed covenant theology as the Creator–creature distinction. There is God, and there is everything he has made. There is nothing else. To bifurcate creation into natural and supernatural realms is unnecessary.

And I don’t think such a concept is found in Scripture. It was a drift that began in the 12th–13th centuries as Aristotelian categories were imported into Christian theology. Reformed orthodoxy doesn’t really cohere with that kind of ontology. Rather, we affirm the original and patristic view of creation as upheld by and contingent at every moment upon the creator’s willing. Like Augustine and others, we treat nature as the continuous theater of providence. Even in Old Testament times, there was no idea of a self-existing, stable “natural order” into which God would intervene. They believed, as did later Christianity, that deity pervades the world. “The Israelites, along with everyone else in the ancient world, believed instead that every event was the act of deity—that every plant that grew, every baby born, every drop of rain and every climatic disaster was an act of God,” explains Walton. There are no “natural” laws governing the cosmos; God does that. And there are no miracles in the sense of events deviating from that which was “natural,” there are only signs of God’s activity (either favorable or not):

The idea that deity got things running then just stood back or engaged himself elsewhere (deism) would have been laughable in the ancient world because it was not even conceivable. As suggested by Richard Bube, if God were to unplug himself in that way from the cosmos, we and everything else in the cosmos would simply cease to exist. There is nothing “natural” about the world in biblical theology, nor should there be in ours … [because God] is thoroughly involved in the operations and functions of the world. [5]

Those who defend this idea of occasional interventions by God seem to have failed to notice that “a theory of occasional intervention implies as its correlative a theory of ordinary absence,” Moore noted. Indeed! And that mindset reflected the deism prevalent in the 18th century which, even when trying to sound orthodox, spoke of God much like an absentee landlord who doesn’t mind his property as long as the rent comes in. “Yet anything more opposed to the language of the Bible and the fathers can hardly be imagined.” [6]

“As a result,” Walton says, “we should not expect anything in the Bible or in the rest of the ancient Near East to engage in the discussion of how God’s level of creative activity relates to the ‘natural’ world.”

The categories of “natural” and “supernatural” have no meaning to [the people of the Old Testament], let alone any interest (despite the fact that in our modern world such questions take center stage in the discussion). The ancients would never dream of addressing how things might have come into being without God or what “natural” processes he might have used. Notice that even the biblical text merges these perspectives when Genesis 1:24 says, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures” but then follows up with the conclusion in the very next verse, “So God made the animals.” All of these issues are modern issues imposed on the text, and not the issues in the culture of the ancient world. We cannot expect the text to address them, nor can we configure the information of the text to force it to comply with the questions we long to have answered. We must take the text on its own terms—it is not written to us [though it was written for us.] Much to our dismay, then, we will find that the text is impervious to many of the questions that consume us in today’s dialogues. Though we long for the Bible to weigh in on these issues and give us biblical perspectives or answers, we dare not impose such an obligation on the text. God has chosen the agenda of the text, and we must be content with the wisdom of those choices. If we attempt to commandeer the text to address our issues, we distort it in the process. [7]

Let me tie this back into what Lewis was arguing. His point was that the laws of nature, studied scientifically, describe the workings of the created order through secondary causes—a distinction that is itself theological, since it directs one’s attention to the primary cause, namely, God. The explanatory level must match the kind of question asked. The laws of nature tell us what follows within the created realm, all else being equal. If the result departs from what would ordinarily arise under those same conditions, then the conditions themselves have changed. In some cases—such as the virgin birth—the shift is not a breakdown of natural law but an instance of God employing an extraordinary mode of providence. The explanatory level moves accordingly

Moore’s argument exposes the hidden and ultimately needless assumption operating in Lewis’s analogy. If creation is never autonomous, then talk of “interference” misconstrues the relation between Creator and creature. The entire framework of “outside” and “inside” dissolves. What Lewis treated as a metaphysical question becomes, in a coherent Reformed ontology, a straightforward matter of providence. God does not step into a system running on its own; the system has no independent existence apart from his sustaining will. The created order is not a vast machine engineered by a distant Designer but a sacred kingdom upheld and governed by a sovereign Ruler. In that sense, Moore does not so much contradict Lewis as carry the logic of providence to its proper conclusion. Lewis was right to distinguish explanatory levels; once the ontology is clarified, the levels align without strain. Science addresses the regularities of secondary causation, while theology speaks of the God who grants both ordinary and extraordinary providence their existence, purpose, and meaning. Miracles are not breaches in the natural order but particular, purposeful expressions of the same sovereign agency that upholds all things.



References:

[1] C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics (Eerdmans, 2005), 74.

[2] Aubrey L. Moore, Science and Faith: Essays on Apologetic Subjects, 6th ed. (1889; London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., 1905), 185. Emphasis mine.

[3] Moore, ibid., 225–226. Emphasis mine.

[4] Denis R. Alexander, Creation or Evolution: Do We Have to Choose?, 2nd ed. (Oxford: Monarch, 2014), 216.

[5] John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One: Ancient Cosmology and the Origins Debate (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2009), 18.

[6] Moore, ibid., 184–185.

[7] Walton, ibid., 18–19. Emphases mine.
 
In my view? No, they were not the first humans.



In my view, they were created by God the same way that you were.



Correct, they were not—because nobody is formed from evolutionary processes. As I have said multiple times now, populations are formed by evolution, not individuals.



If you aren’t seeing it, then it’s because you are not looking (and creationist material is not informing you), because it is there to be seen. For example, the hybrid cordgrass Spartina × townsendii underwent a genome duplication event—which is added DNA—that restored fertility and created a stable, reproductively isolated species, Spartina anglica (now classified as Sporobolus anglicus after a taxonomic revision in 2014).



I can almost agree with that. In my view, the origin of species, of complex traits, of life, the earth, the solar system, the entire universe, God brought forth all of it through perfectly natural processes—but not purely natural. (For me, there is no such thing as “purely” natural. I am not a deist.) The same goes for you and me (God knit us together in the womb), or rain and snow (God’s storehouses). We describe these through biological and meteorological processes, respectively.



It is not a question of either this or that, it’s a matter of both this and that. God created the genome contained in each species and he produced each species, both through evolutionary processes.
jesus stated that Adam and Eve were created directly by God, was he wrong then?
 
Yes, all creatures are the result of evolutionary processes, just as all humans are the result of reproductive processes and all weather is the result of meteorological processes. While evolution has continued since the time of Adam, it did not begin then. Evolution began over three billion years prior to Adam.



For the record, I emphatically reject that view. Evolution does not map onto Genesis.
So Genesis 1:24 means
God said, “Let the earth produce living creatures after their kind, livestock, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind;” and it was so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: QVQ
In my view? No, they were not the first humans.



In my view, they were created by God the same way that you were.



Correct, they were not—because nobody is formed from evolutionary processes. As I have said multiple times now, populations are formed by evolution, not individuals.



If you aren’t seeing it, then it’s because you are not looking (and creationist material is not informing you), because it is there to be seen. For example, the hybrid cordgrass Spartina × townsendii underwent a genome duplication event—which is added DNA—that restored fertility and created a stable, reproductively isolated species, Spartina anglica (now classified as Sporobolus anglicus after a taxonomic revision in 2014).



I can almost agree with that. In my view, the origin of species, of complex traits, of life, the earth, the solar system, the entire universe, God brought forth all of it through perfectly natural processes—but not purely natural. (For me, there is no such thing as “purely” natural. I am not a deist.) The same goes for you and me (God knit us together in the womb), or rain and snow (God’s storehouses). We describe these through biological and meteorological processes, respectively.



It is not a question of either this or that, it’s a matter of both this and that. God created the genome contained in each species and he produced each species, both through evolutionary processes.
Per the Bible, God created Adam first divinely, and then Eve from Adam, true or false?
They had no prior parents that gave physical birth to them true or false?
 
Back
Top