A Question For Dispensationalists

[Arial]

This thread concerns only one aspect of dispensationalism, and that is the teaching that the thousand years in Revelation is a literal thousand years. And that during that thousand years, Jesus is reigning in Jerusalem; that it is a time when the church has been removed and God is dealing with geo/politcal Israel, fulfilling all the promises made to Israel in the OT, including possession of the land and a complete restoration of national Israel.

The question is: How do you deal with these passages concerning the land?

After Solomon had built the temple and his own house, prayed concerning it and the people of Israel, God appeared to him and spoke to him. This is in 1 Kings 9: 1-9.






9 As soon as Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, 2 the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 And the Lord said to him, “I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you have made before me. I have consecrated this house that you have built, nby putting my name there forever. oMy eyes and my heart will be there for all time. 4 And as for you, if you will pwalk before me, qas David your father walked, with integrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I have commanded you, and keeping my statutes and my rules, 5 rthen I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father, saying, ‘You shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.’ 6 sBut if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes that I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, 7 tthen I will cut off Israel from the land that I have given them, uand the house that I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight, vand Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 8 And this house will become a heap of ruins.1 Everyone passing by it will be astonished and will hiss, and they will say, w‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land and to this house?’ 9 Then they will say, ‘Because xthey abandoned the Lord their God who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt and laid hold on other gods and worshiped them and served them. Therefore the Lord has brought all this disaster on them.’ ”

1 Kings 10:6-8

So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the Lord and did not wholly follow the Lord, as David his father had. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountains east of Jerusalem. And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrifices to their god's.

 

[EarlyActs]

They only 'deal' with verses that favor their idea.

 

[CrowCross]

This thread concerns only one aspect of dispensationalism, and that is the teaching that the thousand years in Revelation is a literal thousand years. And that during that thousand years, Jesus is reigning in Jerusalem; that it is a time when the church has been removed and God is dealing with geo/politcal Israel, fulfilling all the promises made to Israel in the OT, including possession of the land and a complete restoration of national Israel.

From what I understand...The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill various promises God made to the world. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus’ 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept.

 

[Arial]

From what I understand...The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill various promises God made to the world. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus’ 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept.

What specific promises are you referring to? The OP question was specific.

 

[Tambora]

Land ho!

The problem with what is the land of Israel is that you get varying boundaries in scripture.
So which scripture of boundaries do you choose for it to be fulfilled?

 

[CrowCross]

What specific promises are you referring to? The OP question was specific.

"Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus’ 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept." The article I posted from which I just quoted spoke of them.

 

[CrowCross]

Land ho!

The problem with what is the land of Israel is that you get varying boundaries in scripture.
So which scripture of boundaries do you choose for it to be fulfilled?

I don't know the exact boundaries. Should I need to in order to make the prophecy true?

 

[Tambora]

I don't know the exact boundaries. Should I need to in order to make the prophecy true?

I would think one should know the physical boundaries before they could possibly claim it was physically fulfilled.

Or one could possibly say it only involved the city that Abraham was hoping for that he and his children would inherit.

Heb 11
(10) For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

 

[Arial]

"Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus’ 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept." The article I posted from which I just quoted spoke of them.

You still have not given anything specific. The OP gave specific scriptures and asked a specific question. This was the question:

The question is: How do you deal with these passages concerning the land?

The scriptures are 1 Kings 9:1-9 and 1 Kings 10:6-8. They are posted in the OP. Read them and answer the question.
Thanks

 

[Arial]

I don't know the exact boundaries. Should I need to in order to make the prophecy true?

The exact boundaries are given by God in your Bible. And to answer your question a prophecy would not be true concerning the land unless those exact boundaries God set for Israel become the exact boundaries of Israel.

 

[Eleanor]

Land ho!

The problem with what is the land of Israel is that you get varying boundaries in scripture.
So which scripture of boundaries do you choose for it to be fulfilled?

There were boundaries of possession (Josh 23:14, 21:43) and boundaries of occupation (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25).
Both were fulfilled (Josh 23:14, 21:43).

 

[CrowCross]

I would think one should know the physical boundaries before they could possibly claim it was physically fulfilled.

Doesn't the bible list boundries?

According to Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile River in Egypt to Lebanon (south to north) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (west to east). On today’s map, the land God has stated belongs to Israel includes everything modern-day Israel possesses, plus all of the territory occupied by the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. ref

Or one could possibly say it only involved the city that Abraham was hoping for that he and his children would inherit.

Heb 11
(10) For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

 

[CrowCross]

The exact boundaries are given by God in your Bible. And to answer your question a prophecy would not be true concerning the land unless those exact boundaries God set for Israel become the exact boundaries of Israel.

see the above post (12)

 

[CrowCross]

You still have not given anything specific. The OP gave specific scriptures and asked a specific question. This was the question:

Sheeze, I'll cut and paste it for you. Happy?

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
God has already fulfilled the personal aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant; Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the forefather of many nations. Several hundred years after Abraham, Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the Promised Land. But Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18–20 and Numbers 34:1-12. Not even Solomon ruled over this particular area (1 Kings 4:21–24). Although he did reign from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates, he did not hold the area from Mount Hor to Hazarenan (Numbers 34:7–9)—into present-day Lebanon and Syria. In addition, the covenant God made with Abraham was that he and his descendants would have the land forever (Genesis 13:15; 17:8; Ezekiel 16:60). The current Israeli state may be a step in this direction, but they still do not possess the boundaries God laid out.

The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7)
God’s covenant with David was that his line would never die out and that David’s heir would sit on the throne of Israel forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Biblical scholars agree that Jesus is the fulfillment of this covenant—one of the reasons His genealogy is given for both His adoptive father (Matthew 1:1–17) and His mother (Luke 3:23–38). The Jews understood this when they laid down palm branches and their cloaks as Jesus rode into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–17). They expected Him to be a military/political leader that would liberate them from the Romans and make Israel a great nation again. But they didn’t understand the nature of Jesus’ work at the time was for the New Covenant, not the Davidic Covenant. The 1,000-year reign will be the beginning of Jesus’ reign over Israel and the earth (Revelation 20:4, 6).

The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The work of the New Covenant—Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God—has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Isaiah 59:20–21 explains that this covenant is possible because of the Redeemer, and the reconciliation He provides will last forever. This covenant does not mean that every Jew will be saved. But it does mean that Israel as a nation will worship their Messiah. The Old Testament prophets who spoke of this covenant, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, all wrote that it will be fulfilled in the future. From their time on, Israel has yet to be an independent nation that worshiped its Messiah (Romans 9—11). They will be in the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Other Promises
Those are the covenants God made with Israel that are to be fulfilled in Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, but the Bible lists other promises that will be fulfilled, too. God promised Jesus He will make His enemies a footstool, and that Jesus’ followers will worship Him freely (Psalm 110). God promised the nations of the world that they would live in peace with Jesus as their ruler (Daniel 7:11–14). And He promised creation that the curse would be lifted (Romans 8:18–23), animals and the earth would be restored to peace and prosperity (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:13–15), and people would be freed from disease (Ezekiel 34:16). These, too, will be fulfilled during the 1,000-year reign.

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

 

[Tambora]

Doesn't the bible list boundries?

It does.
But as I stated in a previous post those boundaries vary.
I think most of them have been posted by you and others in this thread, although Ezekiel 47:13-23 is yet another.
To further complicate the matter, some of those places are now unknown to us.
And to complicate the matter ever further is the fact that the land originally allotted to Dan was in the middle left of Israel but they were never able to capture it due to the Amorites (apparently due to their lack of faith) so the tribe of Dan moved up north and settled in an area in Bashan (on the far northern border next to Mount Hermon).
By this time they were idol worshippers.
But some of them remained in ships on the Mediterranean Sea. (And some scholars and historians think they joined up with what was known as "the sea people", basically becoming a group of pirates that attacked several coastline cities.)

The following map shows their original land allotted that they never captured (middle left on map) and the place they ended up settling in (top right).

The "land inheritance" is a tricky subject considering all we read in scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

The "land inheritance" is a tricky subject considering all we read in scripture.

Yes it is. Do you think God knows the boundaries He set up?

 

[Arial]

Sheeze, I'll cut and paste it for you. Happy?

Why can't you use your own words since it was you (or anyone reading the OP) that I asked? No need to start posting in a condescending and defensive manner.

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
God has already fulfilled the personal aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant; Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the forefather of many nations. Several hundred years after Abraham, Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the Promised Land. But Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18–20 and Numbers 34:1-12. Not even Solomon ruled over this particular area (1 Kings 4:21–24). Although he did reign from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates, he did not hold the area from Mount Hor to Hazarenan (Numbers 34:7–9)—into present-day Lebanon and Syria. In addition, the covenant God made with Abraham was that he and his descendants would have the land forever (Genesis 13:15; 17:8; Ezekiel 16:60). The current Israeli state may be a step in this direction, but they still do not possess the boundaries God laid out.

This is all concerning something you brought into the thread that was not in the OP or the question asked. A discussion on the boundaries. It simply is a dispensationlist preparing the way to back off from the former predictions obtained by looking at the world in order to interpret the Bible, of announcing in 1947 that the land had indeed been restored to Israel. Therefore, the departure of the saints in a rapture was soon to come. He does after an interlude to discuss the Davidic covenant. (Do not, here, take the opportunity to sideline the OP and discuss the pre-trib rapture!!!)

The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7)
God’s covenant with David was that his line would never die out and that David’s heir would sit on the throne of Israel forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Biblical scholars agree that Jesus is the fulfillment of this covenant—one of the reasons His genealogy is given for both His adoptive father (Matthew 1:1–17) and His mother (Luke 3:23–38). The Jews understood this when they laid down palm branches and their cloaks as Jesus rode into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–17). They expected Him to be a military/political leader that would liberate them from the Romans and make Israel a great nation again. But they didn’t understand the nature of Jesus’ work at the time was for the New Covenant, not the Davidic Covenant. The 1,000-year reign will be the beginning of Jesus’ reign over Israel and the earth (Revelation 20:4, 6).

Well, is Jesus the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant or not?

What they expected the Messiah to be is not relevant to the discussion. However, dispensationalists have the very same expectation, just in a different way and at a different time. Think about that for a moment. The only land that the New Covenant has to do with is the entire earth. (Romans 8; Rev 21) That is what is future. So it does no good to give an interpretation of say, a thousand years, and then try and make everything fit that interpretation.

I am addressing the content of this post for the sake of courtesy. Not because it has anything to do with the OP or the question asked. It is in fact taking it far afield of that, and when I have posted it, I expect the conversation to return to the OP (hopefully I will be able to lead it back there) and not break off into a conversation of the details of the dispensational view of end times.

The Davidic covenant is not separate from the new covenant but a distinction in it. The Davidic covenant is a continuation of the spiritual aspects of the Abrahamic covenant "his faith was counted as righteousness." Which is a continuation of the covenant of Gen 3:15, "He will crush your head and you will bruise his heel." This author and you I presume are distinguishing covenants but are not distinguishing types of covenant.

To be cont.

 

[Arial]

The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The work of the New Covenant—Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God—has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Does this mean that the New Covenant is only with the nation of Israel? Surely you do not believe that. Considering the prophet Jeremiah has been prophesying a judgement to come on Judah; and considering that it came to pass in Jeremiah's time---the captivity in Babylon; and considering that the temple was destroyed; and considering that we see in Ezra and Nehemiah the return of a remnant and a rebuilding of the wall and the temple; much of what is said before verse 33 likely applies to that. But that is not the New Covenant and it is not when the New Covenant arrived.

So in verse 33 the prophecy jumps from that time period to a future time. And the fact that it names Israel does not restrict it to geopolitical Israel because we know the New Covenant is not restricted to them. Jeremiah is speaking what he is hearing and he is speaking to Israel. They are stuck in time so to speak, and cannot yet even understand the full meaning of something that has not yet been revealed. Which is that the New Covenant is here contrasted to the Old Covenant in that the first is for all nations and does what the old could not do----deal with the sinfulness of man. It could teach and convict, but it could not give eternal life or change a man's heart. (Heb 10:16; 2 Cor 3:3) The NT interprets the OT. The old covenant is written on stone tablets, the new on hearts.

I will say here, that does not mean that God ever loses his love for Israel. And it does not mean that there is not something unique planned for Israel that is not clearly stated in the scriptures. But that does not have to be in a geopolitcal sense; it does not have to be a set period of time in which Israel worships Christ in Israel while all other believers are in exile, so to speak, while Jesus becomes an earthly king instead of King over all, for a set number of years. And Jesus is not waiting at the right hand of God to be crowned King.

Other Promises
Those are the covenants God made with Israel that are to be fulfilled in Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, but the Bible lists other promises that will be fulfilled, too. God promised Jesus He will make His enemies a footstool, and that Jesus’ followers will worship Him freely (Psalm 110). God promised the nations of the world that they would live in peace with Jesus as their ruler (Daniel 7:11–14). And He promised creation that the curse would be lifted (Romans 8:18–23), animals and the earth would be restored to peace and prosperity (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:13–15), and people would be freed from disease (Ezekiel 34:16). These, too, will be fulfilled during the 1,000-year reign.

Off topic and continuing to engage with it will simply move it further off topic. It is for another thread. It presumes a literal thousand year reign.

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

Jesus has fulfilled those prophecies or he would not be the sacrifice for the new covenant. All the work has been done by him and all that is left to move the "right now" into what is now the "not yet" is his return. If you say that is during the 1000 years as an earthly king, (justs as unbelieving Israel thought he would be) then his return does not restore all things but there still remains a thousand years before that happens.

I am not sure what you mean by God's covenants were voluntary and one sided. It is very misleading. His covenants are voluntary for him---grace. But they are not voluntary for mankind. And they are most definitely all one sided. The old covenant---the Sinai covenant was concerning the land (and other things too all pertaining to him being their God as acting on their behalf) and it was conditional. It contained blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. So back to the 1 Kings passages of the OP. Israel broke the covenant and lost the land.

The new covenant is unconditional. God provides everything. And he never has two groups of "his people".

 

[Tambora]

Yes it is. Do you think God knows the boundaries He set up?

I think God had His prophets tell us the boundaries in His word, and according to the prophets the boundaries changed from time to time and many of those boundaries listed are now unknown to us.

I also think it was intentional that the boundaries are not clear to us because the real land that God wanted His people to inherit was by promise and not by the allotted land made by law.
In other words, the land promises of Israel were only a "type" of the real inheritance of God's people (those in Christ).
I think that lines up with the fact that we know much of what the prophets spoke of was not made entirely clear because if it was then they would not have crucified God's Son.
Afterwards things became clear as to what the prophets were pointing to and Paul tells us the real meaning of what the land of promise was really all about.

Gal 3​

(16) Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.​

​

Gal 3​

(18) For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.​

​

Gal 3​

(29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.​

Believers are to look for the same "land" Abraham sought by faith.

Heb 11​

(10) For he [Abraham] was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.​

So, does God keep His promises? Yes.

 

[CrowCross]

I think God had His prophets tell us the boundaries in His word, and according to the prophets the boundaries changed from time to time and many of those boundaries listed are now unknown to us.

I also think it was intentional that the boundaries are not clear to us because the real land that God wanted His people to inherit was by promise and not by the allotted land made by law.
In other words, the land promises of Israel were only a "type" of the real inheritance of God's people (those in Christ).
I think that lines up with the fact that we know much of what the prophets spoke of was not made entirely clear because if it was then they would not have crucified God's Son.
Afterwards things became clear as to what the prophets were pointing to and Paul tells us the real meaning of what the land of promise was really all about.

Gal 3​

(16) Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.​

​

Gal 3​

(18) For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.​

​

Gal 3​

(29) And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.​

Believers are to look for the same "land" Abraham sought by faith.

Heb 11​

(10) For he [Abraham] was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.​

So, does God keep His promises? Yes.

According to the bible during the 1000 year reign there will be other nations besides Israel.