2 Cor 5:19

[HIM]

2 Cor 5:19 says God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Us in Christ. God in Him that the world might believe. For He have put in us the word of this reconciliation. Then we as ordained ambassadors for Christ, through God pray be reconciled unto God. For God had made Jesus to be Sin for us that WE be made the righteousness of God IN Him. SO let's not receive this grace of God in vain. For in this day of salvation He is succouring us, our help presently that we give no offense in anything that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God. For WE are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. For it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. And greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world.

2Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath PUT IN us the word of reconciliation.
2Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you through us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
2Cor 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
2Cor 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2Cor 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
2Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Josheb]

Let's study these verses.

1. To whom does the "us" in verses 5:19, 20, and 21 refer?
2. To whom does the "we" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:1 refer?
3. To whom does the "you" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:16 refer?
4. To whom does the "ourselves" in verse 6:4 refer?
5. To whom does the "I" in verse 6:16 refer?
6. Which verse is it that says God is in Christ so the world might believe (I'm not seeing it in the passage quoted)?

Do you think it is important to have a correct understanding of the differences between the apostles and those to whom they ministered? How about between the apostles and those of us Christians who live two millennia later?

 

[Ghada]

Let's study these verses.

1. To whom does the "us" in verses 5:19, 20, and 21 refer?
2. To whom does the "we" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:1 refer?
3. To whom does the "you" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:16 refer?
4. To whom does the "ourselves" in verse 6:4 refer?
5. To whom does the "I" in verse 6:16 refer?

2 Tim 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
God's Book from the beginning is written to all men created in His image.

But all men are not as us who believe and do His will, beginning with wicked Cain and righteous Abel.

1Jo 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Do you think it is important to have a correct understanding of the differences between the apostles and those to whom they ministered?

Yes. The difference between God's chosen prophets and apostles to write His Scripture, is that all men must believe the words of God they wrote. No man has to believe what anyone says about what they wrote, and any man saying something different than what they wrote, is a false teacher, prophet, apostle, etc...

Other than an office chosen for by the Lord, there is no difference between the saints in Christ Jesus. Every member of His body is equally saved by grace through faith in Him, and living righteous and holily by His grace and faith.

How about between the apostles and those of us Christians who live two millennia later?

The Scripture has not changed, and so neither is the relationship with God through Jesus Christ. All who repent to do His will are the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. Whether a thousand years ago or a thousand years from now.

The words and gospel of Jesus Christ will never change.

Mat 24:35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Rev 14:6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

[HIM]

Let's study these verses.

1. To whom does the "us" in verses 5:19, 20, and 21 refer?
2. To whom does the "we" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:1 refer?
3. To whom does the "you" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:16 refer?
4. To whom does the "ourselves" in verse 6:4 refer?

Those to whom are experiencing the Gospel

1. To whom does the "I" in verse 6:16 refer?

God through Christ

1. Which verse is it that says God is in Christ so the world might believe (I'm not seeing it in the passage quoted)?

John 17

 

[Mr GLee]

Let's study these verses.

1. To whom does the "us" in verses 5:19, 20, and 21 refer?
2. To whom does the "we" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:1 refer?
3. To whom does the "you" in verses 5:20, 5:21, and 6:16 refer?
4. To whom does the "ourselves" in verse 6:4 refer?
5. To whom does the "I" in verse 6:16 refer?
6. Which verse is it that says God is in Christ so the world might believe (I'm not seeing it in the passage quoted)?

Do you think it is important to have a correct understanding of the differences between the apostles and those to whom they ministered? How about between the apostles and those of us Christians who live two millennia later?

The us that have not gone out from us.

Even today If God has given a desire to preach the gospel then you are a apostle sent messenger. UPS, Western Union, Pony express, My wives errand boy etc.

The word apostle was changed by the Pharisee's in violation the loving commandment (Deuteronomy 4:2 )not to add or subtract the meaning from one word .It can change all the prophecies. Christ protecting the integrity of one word from plagiarism spiritual) The do not add or subtract in Revelation 21 protects the integrity of the whole .Two working as one.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
During dialogue with a Jewish man several years ago, I was asked a very pertinent
question that went like this:

"Jesus died for your sins up to the point of your conversion. What about the sins
you are committing now?"

That's a reasonable question coming from a Jew because Levitical atonements had
to be repeated over and over again. Even Yom Kippur, the great day of atonement,
is only useful up to that point and from thence Jews began accumulating sins
towards the next Yom Kippur.

Now supposing God had stopped compiling the Jews' sins on Yom Kippur? Well, that
would've been be the cat's meow because then they would've needed to avail
themselves of the great day of atonement but one time only rather than repeatedly
year after year.

Well; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus,
Numbers, and Deuteronomy doesn't allow for God to stop compiling His people's
sins; whereas Christ's crucifixion is much better than Yom Kippur because it does
allow for God to stop.

● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting
men's sins against them. (cf. Jer 30:33 & Heb 10:1-18)

The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to inventory, i.e. an indictment.
Well, needless to say; without an indictment, prosecutors have no grounds for
hauling someone into court.

* There's a bit of a moral hazard under these circumstances. Due to the fact that
Jesus' followers are on an honor system instead of a legal system, they have an
incentive to become ever more sinful; hence Paul's urging them to cultivate self
restraint.

● Rom 6:1-3 . . What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may
increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

● Rom 6:12-14 . . Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil
desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness,
but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to
life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

● Gal 5:13 . .You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom
to indulge the sinful nature.

FAQ: If God is no longer compiling the sins of His son's followers, then what's with
1John 1:5-10?

REPLY: God desires fellowship with His son's followers; which of course requires
transparency on their part. (cf. isa 1:18 & Ps 32:5-6)

But the important thing is: according to John 5:24 nothing Jesus' followers do now
goes in the books to be used against them later on down the road because their
sins are no longer criminal matters, instead; now they're family matters.
_

 

[Mr GLee]

.
During dialogue with a Jewish man several years ago, I was asked a very pertinent
question that went like this:

"Jesus died for your sins up to the point of your conversion. What about the sins
you are committing now?"

That's a reasonable question coming from a Jew because Levitical atonements had
to be repeated over and over again. Even Yom Kippur, the great day of atonement,
is only useful up to that point and from thence Jews began accumulating sins
towards the next Yom Kippur.

Now supposing God had stopped compiling the Jews' sins on Yom Kippur? Well, that
would've been be the cat's meow because then they would've needed to avail
themselves of the great day of atonement but one time only rather than repeatedly
year after year.

Well; the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus,
Numbers, and Deuteronomy doesn't allow for God to stop compiling His people's
sins; whereas Christ's crucifixion is much better than Yom Kippur because it does
allow for God to stop.

● 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting
men's sins against them. (cf. Jer 30:33 & Heb 10:1-18)

The Greek word translated "counting" pertains to inventory, i.e. an indictment.
Well, needless to say; without an indictment, prosecutors have no grounds for
hauling someone into court.

* There's a bit of a moral hazard under these circumstances. Due to the fact that
Jesus' followers are on an honor system instead of a legal system, they have an
incentive to become ever more sinful; hence Paul's urging them to cultivate self
restraint.

● Rom 6:1-3 . . What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may
increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

● Rom 6:12-14 . . Do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil
desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness,
but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to
life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

● Gal 5:13 . .You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom
to indulge the sinful nature.

FAQ: If God is no longer compiling the sins of His son's followers, then what's with
1John 1:5-10?

REPLY: God desires fellowship with His son's followers; which of course requires
transparency on their part. (cf. isa 1:18 & Ps 32:5-6)

But the important thing is: according to John 5:24 nothing Jesus' followers do now
goes in the books to be used against them later on down the road because their
sins are no longer criminal matters, instead; now they're family matters.
_

Goes against what books later down the road ?

What do you mean by no longer criminal ?

 

[Josheb]

Those to whom are experiencing the Gospel

Where does the text state that?

Before doing anything else, would you please clarify, exactly and specifically, what it is you mean when using the phrase "experiencing the gospel."

• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written to non-believers?
• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written to non-believers?
• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written about believers?
• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written about non-believers?

Simple yes or no will suffice.

God through Christ

Correct. Therefore, the verses we're discussing pertain solely to those in whom "God through Christ" is dwelling. The verse, therefore, do not apply to anyone in whom God through Christ is not dwelling.

John 17

I see. So, what you've done is splice to disparate passages together to eisegetically justify your position.

• Would you say that the already-saved person is soteriologically the same kind of human as the not-saved?
• Would you say that the already-saved person is cognitively the same kind of human as the not-saved? Do the two possess the exact same cognitive faculties?
• Would you say that the already-saved person is emotionally the same kind of human as the not-saved? Do the two possess the exact same affective faculties?
• Would you say that the already-saved person is volitionally the same kind of human as the not-saved? Do the two possess the exact same volitional faculties?
• Do you think an individual's eternal disposition, taken at any time in their life, has any influence on their cognitive, affective, and volitional faculties?

The opening post is filled with words indicating "audience affiliation." When saying, "For He have put in us the word of this reconciliation," for example, to whom is the "us" in that sentence referring? Similarly, when saying, "Then we as ordained ambassadors for Christ, through God pray be reconciled unto God," to whom is the "we" in that sentence referring (the already-saved, or the not-saved)?

 

[HIM]

Where does the text state that? Before doing anything else, would you please clarify, exactly and specifically, what it is you mean when using the phrase "experiencing the gospel."

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new through the first installment, the Spirit.

• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written to non-believers?
• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written to non-believers?
• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written about believers?
• Do you read the 2 Cor. 5:19-6-16 text to be written about non-believers?
  

If one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new through the first instalment, the Spirit through Christ. That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him through the seal, the protection of the Spirit weighing on our hearts.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciles (changes) us to himself through Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the, those in Christ the ministry of reconciliation; If we are established in Christ living through the first instalment, the Spirit in our hearts, anointed by God.
Who always causes us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of His knowledge through us. For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. Therein Declared to be the epistle of Christ. Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For We are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I see. So, what you've done is splice to disparate passages together to eisegetically justify your position.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciles (changes) us to Himself through Jesus Christ. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself

 

[Mr GLee]

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new through the first instalment, the Spirit through Christ. That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him through the seal, the protection of the Spirit weighing on our hearts.

Amen

Faith = Power

If any man be in Christ he is a born again creature given the power. "let there be" and "it was good"

The faithful creative power"

Law of faith the unseen 'Let there be" power working in and with dying mankind

Believers have the faithful power of the father working in them. But they would never say it of their own dying self . .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

He gives us little of his powerful labor of love or called work of His faithfulness. Calling us you that have little faith .previous having none no faith that could please

he is the storeroom of faith that reveal his understanding . His Mansion has plenty of rooms .

Peter knowing he was powerless when asked to forgive others. Peter hoped the father would increase his power in Peter to finish the work of two.

A little of the faith or power Christ was poured out on dying mankind In jeapordy of His own Spirit life .

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. . . . . . . . (new born again)

2 Corinthians 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your (born again) faith (power) is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

 

[JIM]

Rom_5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

To be justified is to be forgiven, and not just our sins, we are forgiven. It is a state of being. Whoever believes and is baptized is forgiven. We do not pop into and out of being justified. So long as one continues to believe and be faithful to that belief, one is justified.

 

[Mr GLee]

Rom_5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

To be justified is to be forgiven, and not just our sins, we are forgiven. It is a state of being. Whoever believes and is baptized is forgiven. We do not pop into and out of being justified. So long as one continues to believe and be faithful to that belief, one is justified.

Believing is being baptized by the Holy Spirit the water of the word

 

[JIM]

Believing is being baptized by the Holy Spirit the water of the word

The repentant believer who is baptized (in water) will have his sins forgiven (be justified) and will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (be baptized with the Holy Spirit).

 

[Josheb]

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new through the first installment, the Spirit.

That does NOT explain "experiencing the gospel," which is what you were asked to do. What that does do, however, is mean that a person has already been changed. It's a post-salvific state, not something the non-Christian, or the not-yet-saved person possesses.

If one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.

If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new through the first instalment, the Spirit through Christ. That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him through the seal, the protection of the Spirit weighing on our hearts.

And all things are of God, who hath reconciles (changes) us to himself through Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the, those in Christ the ministry of reconciliation; If we are established in Christ living through the first instalment, the Spirit in our hearts, anointed by God.
Who always causes us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of His knowledge through us. For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. Therein Declared to be the epistle of Christ. Written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. For We are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


And all things are of God, who hath reconciles (changes) us to Himself through Jesus Christ. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself

All of which, again, means that verses written about the already-saved CANNOT be applied to the not-yet-saved.