1000 years of Revelation 20.

[Bruiser]

Over the past I've found that those who are presenting the truth of the pre-tribulation rapture are often ridiculed...mocked. Called dipsy's from time to time.
Then ways are derived to curtail the truth the dispensationalist are presenting.
Some of them avoid answering questions...then claim you didn't answer their question.

Post 90 above will be hated by them. Replied back with one line ad-hoc style answers.

.....but we're off topic so I'll end my response as it will probably be deleted and a warning given to me.

Okay. I don't want to be the one that starts something that gives you reason to leave because you get Moderated when it's my fault...

 

[Carbon]

Over the past I've found that those who are presenting the truth of the pre-tribulation rapture are often ridiculed...mocked. Called dipsy's from time to time.
Then ways are derived to curtail the truth the dispensationalist are presenting.
Some of them avoid answering questions...then claim you didn't answer their question.

Post 90 above will be hated by them. Replied back with one line ad-hoc style answers.

.....but we're off topic so I'll end my response as it will probably be deleted and a warning given to me.

Your fine, you have a right to share your beliefs. Your post won’t be deleted or will you get a warning.

 

[Carbon]

It's good to hear from you...

..all though you are wrong.

 

[CrowCross]

Okay. I don't want to be the one that starts something that gives you reason to leave because you get Moderated when it's my fault...

I'm not here to discuss the moderators in this thread.

 

[Carbon]

The literal 1000 year reign is what the bible teaches. Six times in Rev. 20:2-7, the millennial kingdom is specifically said to be 1,000 years in length.

You can take it that way but it does not teach a literal 1,000 years.

Escatology does matter....
Currently we are in the Matt 24 "wars and rumors of war".....and soon to be in the famine stage mentioned next. Events such as the closing of the Strait of Hormuz is an early step of acheiving this. Oil has been reduced world wide effecting some countries more than others... as well as nitrogen for fertilizer made from the natural gas.
There is a whole list of other things on the docket for causing famine.

The and the pretribulation and subsequent premillennialism view is the correct biblical interpretation. All other views are not biblcal.

Jesus returns twice. The first time (in the air) is at the soon to happen rapture just prior to the beginning of the tribulation. The second time is just prior to the 1,000 year reign of Christ Jesus when He returns on the white horse mentioned in Rev. 19:11 and onward.

We can know there is a pretrib rapture because Jesus says when He returns it will be like the days of Noah and Lot. The accounts presented show a "good" times occuring on earth. People are partying, marrying and so on.
If the days of Noah and Lot happen at the end of the tribulation then the discription Jesus presents is nothing like life will be on earth at that time.
There's even current discussion concerning transhumanism as well as hybrids like mentioned in Gen 6....but that's another topic.

Secondly in Acts 1 the two angels tells the men Jesus will return just like He left. It should be obvious Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse...literally or symbolically. The description of how Jesus returns at the 2nd coming is on a white horse when He will split the Mt. of Olives.

To add to the first two points....In several places the bible mentions the wrath of the tribulation is not meant for His bride. The Church isn't destined for wrath. The Church is in hevaven for the Marrage Supper of the lamb.

NONE of Revelations 6 and onward has happened yet as the preterist like to claim as events such as what happens in Rev 8 have not occurred yet.

The Church isn't mentioned after Rev 5.

Currently technology is at the point where Rev 13 can happen. Up to recent times the earth has not had the ability for that to occur.

The famine will lead to a one world government...CBDC (central bank digital currency)...Universal basic income...increased survelience, data centers...and other Rev 13 controlling technology.

When Jesus returns at the rapture the restrainer....christians...will be removed and open the world up to an exponential level of Satanic activity.

There will be some sort of ratified peace treaty for Israel.
There will be a 3rd Temple built that the antichrist will declare himself as God.

UFO disclosure is a very hot item...part the deception will be when the "aliens" arrive they will tells us that they started life nd tweaked life on earth. They will say God isn't real and Gen 1-2 and the fall of Gen 3 never happened.
Those left behind will be told the "christians" were taken by. them....or perhaps the New Age version where the negative christians were removed....or both.

If you google April 13, 2029 you will see articles concerning the asteroid Apophis...Rev 8 has a very potential account of this event. If this interpretation is correct the world will be in the tribulation on Friday April 13th 2029....and the rapture will have happened.

During the tribulation God will bring the Jewish people back to Him when they understand Jesus is the Savior.... 2/3rds of the Jews will not believe.

Considering the above will happen soon, what should the christians be doing? Looking up and spreading the Gospel.

Those christians who post here and disagree with what I wrote....will be extremely happy when the pretribulation rapture occurs.

There is only 1 Second Coming. Not 2, sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture.

 

[Arial]

The current set of moderators has always moderated (warn, edit, delete) because of rules violations (and nine times out of ten the poster is made aware of what the violation is), never because of differences in opinion or view. So as long as everyone expresses their view in compliance with the rules, all will be well.

This clarification became necessary because of the off topic questions that were asked and answered. Slip ups happen in that regard so no foul. Let's return to the topic and thanks in advance.

 

[CrowCross]

Is this a figurative or literal 1000 years?

Scripture, reasoning, proof?

Barnabas was one of Christ followers back in the day. Barnabas was also a companion of Paul.
Barnabas or as some believe an "unknown early christian writer" is said to have written the Epistle of Barnabas...not to be confused with the "Gospel of Barnabas"...
The Epistle of Barnabas, is an early writing of Christianity, frequently mentioned by some of the church fathers.

Who actually wrote it doesn't matter because it shows the views, theological insight as well as the thinking of that time.
yes, the Epistle of Barnabas is not a part of the canon of Scripture...despite that the Epistle of Barnabas is still considered as a valuable resource for christian theology.

All that was said to say this:

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

The Epistle of Barnabas presents the 1,000 year reign of Christ as the 7th day in a literal fashion rather than containing some symbolic meaning.

The Epistle is saying....each day of creation will be 1,000 years of earth history.

From the young earth point of view the earth was made in Gen 1 approximately 4,000 BC.....which would have been about 6,000 years ago. This leaves one day left or one thousand years left to be fulfilled after the seven year tribulation.

I believe it would be fair to say many early christians believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ as presented in Rev 20.
This literal 1,000 year reign of Christ Jesus isn't new theology.

 

[CrowCross]

There is only 1 Second Coming. Not 2, sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture.

I most certainly can.
Keep in mind the actual 2nd coming, that is when Jesus physically returns to earth is mentioned in Rev 19. I believe you know the verses.
The rapture isn't the actual second coming....so in that sense you are correct.
The rapture is a separate event that precedes the physical coming to earth by 7 years. It is often described as Christ appearing.

Now the scripture:
In Acts 1:9 we read of the account of Christ Jesus' ascension...9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

The important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"

In Rev 19 we read of the return of Christ...
Contained in the verses of the return of Christ we read these two verses:
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
And...
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

But, what about this return? Is there another verse? Yup.
1st Thes 4...
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Remember, the important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"
This is important because when Jesus returns at the resurrection rapture event spoken of in 1 Thes 4.....Jesus is not on a white horse with an army riding on white horses following Jesus. 1 Thes 4:16 isn't the Rev 19 return of Christ Jesus.

The solution...Christ returns TWICE...the first time at the resurrection/rapture pre tribulation and the second time at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

The scripture and logic I used clearly refutes your claim as well as your statement.... "sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture'.

 

[Arial]

Remember, the important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"
This is important because when Jesus returns at the resurrection rapture event spoken of in 1 Thes 4.....Jesus is not on a white horse with an army riding on white horses following Jesus. 1 Thes 4:16 isn't the Rev 19 return of Christ Jesus.

The solution...Christ returns TWICE...the first time at the resurrection/rapture pre tribulation and the second time at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

The scripture and logic I used clearly refutes your claim as well as your statement.... "sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture'.

That doesn't prove it simply because you must first prove a seven-year tribulation period, a pre-trib rapture, and that he will literally be riding on a white horse at his second or is it third coming.

In addition, in an early post you state there are three returns of Jesus and here you equivocate and say the one is when he doesn't set foot on the earth but only comes part way back. So even your "proof" dismantles itself.

A presuppositional interpretive view will not stand as proof. There are other possible interpretations and to be any kind of support for the interpretation, they must align it with the whole of Scripture. That requires something more than just the scriptures being quoted.

 

[CrowCross]

That doesn't prove it simply because you must first prove a seven-year tribulation period, a pre-trib rapture, and that he will literally be riding on a white horse at his second or is it third coming.

In addition, in an early post you state there are three returns of Jesus and here you equivocate and say the one is when he doesn't set foot on the earth but only comes part way back. So even your "proof" dismantles itself.

A presuppositional interpretive view will not stand as proof. There are other possible interpretations and to be any kind of support for the interpretation, they must align it with the whole of Scripture. That requires something more than just the scriptures being quoted.

What I presented is one of many proofs. In my post I showed Jesus returns TWICE....despite the length of the tribulation and even if there is or isn't a tribulation.

The first time in the clouds where the saints will meet him in the air and then a second time on a white horse.
As to the horse it doesn't matter if it's literal or figurative. If it's figurative Luke used different language to describe Jesus ascension. Luke mentioned no white horse. The catching away mentioned in 1 Thes 4 mentions no white horse.

 

[Arial]

What I presented is one of many proofs. In my post I showed Jesus returns TWICE....despite the length of the tribulation and even if there is or isn't a tribulation.

The first time in the clouds where the saints will meet him in the air and then a second time on a white horse.
As to the horse it doesn't matter if it's literal or figurative. If it's figurative Luke used different language to describe Jesus ascension. Luke mentioned no white horse. The catching away mentioned in 1 Thes 4 mentions no white horse.

If it is figurative---there is no literal white horse. Therefore, neither Luke nor Paul mention a white horse.

Rev 19 is a vision of what is going on in heaven using symbols OBVIOUSLY, and never says it is Jesus returning or that his horse's hooves touch the earth.

 

[CrowCross]

If it is figurative---there is no literal white horse. Therefore, neither Luke nor Paul mention a white horse.

Tends to reason....then there is no literal resurection or rapture.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Arial]

Tends to reason....then there is no literal resurection or rapture.

Primary fallacy:
Non sequitur. The conclusion does not logically follow the premise/ Symbolic imagery in apocaly0ptic literature does not equal a denial of historical or doctrinal claims in didactic or narrative texts.

Even more specific fallacy: false equivalence (category error). It treats two fundamentally different kinds of biblical content as if they belong to the same interpretive category. It assumes that if one element is symbolic, all elements across Scripture must be symbolic. Illogical.

Slippery slope fallacy/overgeneralization. The implicit argument is "Allow symbolism here then everything becomes nonliteral. Illogical.

I piled on the logical fallacies because I am not holding you to rule 4.4 regarding the need to address the called-out fallacies. It would go nowhere.

 

[Carbon]

The solution...Christ returns TWICE...the first time at the resurrection/rapture pre tribulation and the second time at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

I'm sorry, but you are seripusly wrong here. But I know your wont agree. But by ammm means, show me in scripture these two returns that you mention above.

The scripture and logic I used clearly refutes your claim as well as your statement.... "sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture'.

Well, you still haven't proved it with scripture.

 

[Carbon]

I most certainly can.
Keep in mind the actual 2nd coming, that is when Jesus physically returns to earth is mentioned in Rev 19. I believe you know the verses.
The rapture isn't the actual second coming....so in that sense you are correct.
The rapture is a separate event that precedes the physical coming to earth by 7 years. It is often described as Christ appearing.

Now the scripture:
In Acts 1:9 we read of the account of Christ Jesus' ascension...9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

The important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"

In Rev 19 we read of the return of Christ...
Contained in the verses of the return of Christ we read these two verses:
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
And...
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

But, what about this return? Is there another verse? Yup.
1st Thes 4...
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Remember, the important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"
This is important because when Jesus returns at the resurrection rapture event spoken of in 1 Thes 4.....Jesus is not on a white horse with an army riding on white horses following Jesus. 1 Thes 4:16 isn't the Rev 19 return of Christ Jesus.

The solution...Christ returns TWICE...the first time at the resurrection/rapture pre tribulation and the second time at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

The scripture and logic I used clearly refutes your claim as well as your statement.... "sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture'.

Dispensationalism does not work with these passages because dispensationalism is not biblical.

 

[Carbon]

Barnabas was one of Christ followers back in the day. Barnabas was also a companion of Paul.
Barnabas or as some believe an "unknown early christian writer" is said to have written the Epistle of Barnabas...not to be confused with the "Gospel of Barnabas"...
The Epistle of Barnabas, is an early writing of Christianity, frequently mentioned by some of the church fathers.

Who actually wrote it doesn't matter because it shows the views, theological insight as well as the thinking of that time.
yes, the Epistle of Barnabas is not a part of the canon of Scripture...despite that the Epistle of Barnabas is still considered as a valuable resource for christian theology.

All that was said to say this:

Barnabas 15:3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And
God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the
seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.

Barnabas 15:4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He
meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all
things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of
the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six
days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.

Barnabas 15:5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son
shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall
judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the
stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.

The Epistle of Barnabas presents the 1,000 year reign of Christ as the 7th day in a literal fashion rather than containing some symbolic meaning.

The Epistle is saying....each day of creation will be 1,000 years of earth history.

From the young earth point of view the earth was made in Gen 1 approximately 4,000 BC.....which would have been about 6,000 years ago. This leaves one day left or one thousand years left to be fulfilled after the seven year tribulation.

I believe it would be fair to say many early christians believed in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ as presented in Rev 20.
This literal 1,000 year reign of Christ Jesus isn't new theology.

So, your firm in your belief that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 are literal?

So then we have a literal imprisonment of the devil for 1000 literal years also?
Question: This inmate, who will literally be in prison for 1000 years, is it a literal dragon, or a serpent? Or the devil?

Is the key to the prison literal? Well, of course it isn't, right? Since satan is a spirit, would a literal key do any good? I think not.
How about the chain used? Is it a literal chain? Again, I think not. What good would a literal chain do against Satan?

Or this prison that he is locked in is called the abyss; is it literal or physical? Well, it would be someplace, but I dont think it's a literal hole in the ground. It also cannot be literal.

So, let's review: The innmate, the key, the chain, and the prison itself are symbolic representations of different aspects of God's binding of Satan, but the prison sentence - the 1000 years must be taken literally? This whole thing sounds very inconsistent to me - sounds made up according to someone's personal choice.

As I said, you have a lot to prove here. I'm interested in seeing what you have to say.

 

[Carbon]

@CrowCross , I challenge you to come up with "just one parallel passage" to support a future interm binding of Satan.

As an Amilennialist, I (and many others) can cite many parallel passages for the idea that, "as a result of the work of Christ," Satan has been restrained in the present age.

 

[Marty]

I most certainly can.
Keep in mind the actual 2nd coming, that is when Jesus physically returns to earth is mentioned in Rev 19. I believe you know the verses.
The rapture isn't the actual second coming....so in that sense you are correct.
The rapture is a separate event that precedes the physical coming to earth by 7 years. It is often described as Christ appearing.

Now the scripture:
In Acts 1:9 we read of the account of Christ Jesus' ascension...9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

The important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"

In Rev 19 we read of the return of Christ...
Contained in the verses of the return of Christ we read these two verses:
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
And...
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

But, what about this return? Is there another verse? Yup.
1st Thes 4...
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Remember, the important part from the verses is this...."will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven"
This is important because when Jesus returns at the resurrection rapture event spoken of in 1 Thes 4.....Jesus is not on a white horse with an army riding on white horses following Jesus. 1 Thes 4:16 isn't the Rev 19 return of Christ Jesus.

The solution...Christ returns TWICE...the first time at the resurrection/rapture pre tribulation and the second time at the end of the 7 year tribulation.

The scripture and logic I used clearly refutes your claim as well as your statement.... "sorry and you can’t prove it with scripture'.

But just like in Revelation chapter 20 revelation chapter 19 does not show Jesus coming to the earth John in that verse only sees what is happening up in heaven

 

[Marty]

What I presented is one of many proofs. In my post I showed Jesus returns TWICE....despite the length of the tribulation and even if there is or isn't a tribulation.

The first time in the clouds where the saints will meet him in the air and then a second time on a white horse.
As to the horse it doesn't matter if it's literal or figurative. If it's figurative Luke used different language to describe Jesus ascension. Luke mentioned no white horse. The catching away mentioned in 1 Thes 4 mentions no white horse.

Revelation 19 doesn’t show Jesus returning

 

[Marty]

If it is figurative---there is no literal white horse. Therefore, neither Luke nor Paul mention a white horse.

Rev 19 is a vision of what is going on in heaven using symbols OBVIOUSLY, and never says it is Jesus returning or that his horse's hooves touch the earth.

Yes amen