Work out your salvation with fear and trembling

[Dave]

At first glance, 1 John 4:18 and Philippians 2:12 seem to contradict each other. But in reality, they compliment each other.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Funny how many different opinions there are one what Philippians 2:12 means. I watched about six different you tube videos. I started with one, which led to another, and so on. Even running into a video about 1 John 4:18. In Philippians 2:12, Piper put the emphasis on repentance, which I guess is the same thing that JMack said. Macarthur did a good job with it. And I'm sure that implied in his answer, was the perfected, or matured love from 1 John 4:18.

This video is just over four minutes long.

 

[Josheb]

Regardless of what Piper, JMac, or any other preachers says, do you think unregenerate unsaved people do that? Do they work out a salvation they do not possess?

 

[Dave]

Regardless of what Piper, JMac, or any other preachers says, do you think unregenerate unsaved people do that? Do they work out a salvation they do not possess?

I think the context suggests salvation there is speaking of practical sanctification. Taking it to the end that was intended. So they are not becoming saved, or even becoming more saved, they're working outwardly, or manifesting the changes that are happening inside them as they conform to Christlikeness. Perfected means matured. If anyone reads 1 John 4:18 that way, the connection between that passage and Philippians 2:12 becomes even more obvious.

 

[Josheb]

I think the context suggests salvation there is speaking of practical sanctification.

Why do you think that?

Can you give me the time stamp for when JMac mentions sanctification? Can you provide me with the verse in Philippians 2 and 1 John 4 where the word "sanctification" occurs? I watched and listened to that video twice, from beginning to end, and I did not hear JMac mention sanctification. Did I miss it?

 

[Dave]

They're saved already. It's clear Paul is speaking to believers.

Start from Philippians 1:25, noting that there are no chapters in the original text, and read right up to verse 13 in chapter 2, and it's clear Paul is speaking to believers. "Therefore" in verse 12 of Philippians 2 suggest that the conclusion of vs. 12-13 has been reached from what was previously said. I don't think that Paul, or Macarthur for that matter, actually uses the word sanctification, but it's clear they are not working for their salvation. So "salvation", along with "work out your own" in that context, suggests, to manifest outwardly what God is doing inside.

I found a good article from monergism.com.

What is Sanctification? - Philippians 2:1-13 | Monergism

A sermon by Lee Irons on Philippians 2:1-13.Over the last two weeks we looked at verses 12 and 13. Now, this morning I want to step back and take a look at

www.monergism.com

 

[makesends]

At first glance, 1 John 4:18 and Philippians 2:12 seem to contradict each other. But in reality, they compliment each other.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Funny how many different opinions there are one what Philippians 2:12 means. I watched about six different you tube videos. I started with one, which led to another, and so on. Even running into a video about 1 John 4:18. In Philippians 2:12, Piper put the emphasis on repentance, which I guess is the same thing that JMack said. Macarthur did a good job with it. And I'm sure that implied in his answer, was the perfected, or matured love from 1 John 4:18.

This video is just over four minutes long.

"We do so because it is so"

 

[Papa Smurf]

Hello @Josheb, if you have the time and want more details, read and/or listen to Dr. MacArthur's sermons on Philippians 2:12-13, God at Work in You, parts 1 & 2 (as he is able to say far more in two 50-minute sermons than he can in the 4-minute excerpt above, obviously). Here's a link to part 2 with a short excerpt from it below (where he, among other things, mentions sanctification).

~God at Work in You, Part 2​

So, we conclude that there are just two points in these two verses. Point number one, verse 12: the Christian working out. Point number two, verse 13: God working in. ​

​

Let’s go back to our first point which we introduced last time. In verse 12, Paul says basically that the Christian is to work out. In fact, the major statement of verse 12, the main verb and the main idea, is found at the end of verse 12, “Work out your own salvation.” That is a present-imperative; that means it’s a continuing force command: continually be working out your salvation. That is a mandate. Please notice, he is not saying work at your salvation. He is not saying work up your salvation. He is not saying work for your salvation. Salvation is a gift of grace not of what? Works. You’re not working for it, you’re not working at it to improve it, you’re not working it up, you are simply working it out. ​

​

And we noted last time, rather in great detail as we studied that phrase, that what he means is to produce on the outside of your life that which has been planted on the inside, to make visible in your conduct that which is true of your redeemed nature. ​

​

What God has worked in by way of salvation, you are to work out by way of sanctification.​

​

I'm sure that he has even more to say in his commentary on Philippians.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - here's a link to Philippians 2:12-13, part 1, as well:

~God at Work in You, Part 1​

​

 

[Dave]

Hello @Josheb, if you have the time and want more details, read and/or listen to Dr. MacArthur's sermons on Philippians 2:12-13, God at Work in You, parts 1 & 2 (as he is able to say far more in two 50-minute sermons than he can in the 4-minute excerpt above, obviously). Here's a link to part 2 with a short excerpt from it below (where he, among other things, mentions sanctification).

~God at Work in You, Part 2​

So, we conclude that there are just two points in these two verses. Point number one, verse 12: the Christian working out. Point number two, verse 13: God working in. ​

​

Let’s go back to our first point which we introduced last time. In verse 12, Paul says basically that the Christian is to work out. In fact, the major statement of verse 12, the main verb and the main idea, is found at the end of verse 12, “Work out your own salvation.” That is a present-imperative; that means it’s a continuing force command: continually be working out your salvation. That is a mandate. Please notice, he is not saying work at your salvation. He is not saying work up your salvation. He is not saying work for your salvation. Salvation is a gift of grace not of what? Works. You’re not working for it, you’re not working at it to improve it, you’re not working it up, you are simply working it out. ​

​

And we noted last time, rather in great detail as we studied that phrase, that what he means is to produce on the outside of your life that which has been planted on the inside, to make visible in your conduct that which is true of your redeemed nature. ​

​

What God has worked in by way of salvation, you are to work out by way of sanctification.​

​

I'm sure that he has even more to say in his commentary on Philippians.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - here's a link to Philippians 2:12-13, part 1, as well:

~God at Work in You, Part 1​

​

Thanks for that.

Dave

 

[Dave]

I wanted to add, I think that the Biblical phrase 'fear is the beginning of wisdom' plays into this as well.

Dave

 

[Josheb]

They're saved already. It's clear Paul is speaking to believers.

Correct.

.......it's clear they are not working for their salvation.

That is an excellent way of wording the matter.


Now.....

Go back to that now-closed op you authored, "Regeneration and born again are not synonymous," in which the intent was to "confront" the "idea that OT saints were born again and a person must be born again to believe," and apply that fact. Apply the fact the texts in question - the verses taken from the epistolary - are written to those who are all already saved, AND written about those who are all already saved and, therefore, not working for their salvation and see where some of the arguments posted in defense of that op fail because verses written about the saved were applied as if they apply to the unregenerate, not-born-again, unsaved. Consider the three points made in this op HERE. because several errors were made regarding those three points in defense of the "Regeneration....." op, too.


That being said, I don't mean to sandbag this op. I was simply asking a simple question because - based on the aforementioned thread - it is not clear the audience identification or affiliation of this video is correctly understood. Since you have answered the question asked correctly, and done so in such a wonderfully succinct matter you may consider yourself hugged , and I'll let you get on discussing this op with others. I'll close with this: I always find JMac's sermons on soteriology a curious thing because of his advocacy of Dispensational Premillennialism. Classic Reformed monergistic soteriology, to which he purports allegiance, is wholly irreconcilable with Dispensational Premillennialist soteriology. I've never heard/read him mention the conflict between the two, or express any awareness of the conflict, and never heard him attempt to resolve the conflict (perhaps has, but I've never heard it).

 

[Josheb]

Hello @Josheb, if you have the time and want more details, read and/or listen to Dr. MacArthur's sermons on Philippians 2:12-13, God at Work in You, parts 1 & 2 (as he is able to say far more in two 50-minute sermons than he can in the 4-minute excerpt above, obviously). Here's a link to part 2 with a short excerpt from it below (where he, among other things, mentions sanctification).

~God at Work in You, Part 2​

​

p.s. - here's a link to Philippians 2:12-13, part 1, as well:

~God at Work in You, Part 1​

​

Thank you for the links. Before watching the YouTube video in this op I wondered if it was a quote mine, but after watching it I suspect it represents him accurately. Perhaps I will give the links a listen when I have the time and inclination. I've been listening to JMac for maybe forty years and once considered him credible. Are you aware he and Philip Johnson once opposed the homeschool movement and directed Christians not to homeschool? Blessedly, they've changed their viewpoint (and preaching) on the matter. I've watched JMac evolve over the decades but, as I told @Dave, in the post above, I always find JMac's sermons on soteriology a curious thing because of his advocacy of Dispensational Premillennialism. Classic Reformed monergistic soteriology, to which he purports allegiance, is wholly irreconcilable with Dispensational Premillennialist soteriology. I've never heard/read him mention the conflict between the two, or express any awareness of the conflict, and never heard him attempt to resolve the conflict (perhaps he has, but I've never heard it).

 

[Dave]

Correct.

That is an excellent way of wording the matter.


Now.....

Go back to that now-closed op you authored, "Regeneration and born again are not synonymous," in which the intent was to "confront" the "idea that OT saints were born again and a person must be born again to believe," and apply that fact. Apply the fact the texts in question - the verses taken from the epistolary - are written to those who are all already saved, AND written about those who are all already saved and, therefore, not working for their salvation and see where some of the arguments posted in defense of that op fail because verses written about the saved were applied as if they apply to the unregenerate, not-born-again, unsaved. Consider the three points made in this op HERE. because several errors were made regarding those three points in defense of the "Regeneration....." op, too.

If I remember right, you began trying to make that point in response to something from Romans 10, wasn't it verse 9-10?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Yes, Agree, Paul was speaking to believers in Rome. Speaking of Jews who didn't trust in Jesus Christ, but rather trusted in the idea that they were saved by obeying the Law. That would make them unbelievers. If they were true OT believers leftovers, they would hear the Gospel and believe, and not reject it. 'All that the Father gives Him, He would not lose one' (John 6:37-39).

Interesting that the same passage in Acts 19 that you gave, according to internet sources, happened between 53-57 AD. The book of Romans was written between 56 and 58 AD. So if the transition wasn't over when the book of Romans was written, it was close. Were there still OT believers out there who have never heard the Gospel when Paul wrote Romans? Acts 19 sounded like the last of them. The Gospel message is the same for those holding to the Law for salvation as it is for any non believer. They are all unbelievers. Paul was telling this to believers in Rome, the message is that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The Gospel message is just as Paul said it in vs 9-10, believe and be saved. I don't see how the fact that the people that Paul was writing about were Jews who were unsaved would change anything. Even allowing that there still may be a few genuine OT believers who didn't hear they Gospel yet, like in Acts 19, the message would be the same, believe and be saved.

OT believers from that dispensation were saved by promise. The reality for them was that they were not yet one with Christ, and did not yet have access to His merits, or His death and resurrection.

That being said, I don't mean to sandbag this op. I was simply asking a simple question because - based on the aforementioned thread - it is not clear the audience identification or affiliation of this video is correctly understood. Since you have answered the question asked correctly, and done so in such a wonderfully succinct matter you may consider yourself hugged , and I'll let you get on discussing this op with others. I'll close with this: I always find JMac's sermons on soteriology a curious thing because of his advocacy of Dispensational Premillennialism. Classic Reformed monergistic soteriology, to which he purports allegiance, is wholly irreconcilable with Dispensational Premillennialist soteriology. I've never heard/read him mention the conflict between the two, or express any awareness of the conflict, and never heard him attempt to resolve the conflict (perhaps has, but I've never heard it).

I don't mind. I wasn't the one who closed that thread. I don't know who did. I needed a break anyways.

Dave

 

[Josheb]

If I remember right, you began trying to make that point in response to something from Romans 10, wasn't it verse 9-10?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Primarily that passage but a number of epistolary verses were treated with soteriological synergism. A similar context also exists in the Ezekiel text that was misused (by using a new heart to fine a new birth).

Yes, Agree, Paul was speaking to believers in Rome.

Not just speaking to believers in Rome, but speaking about the believers in Rome.

About!
About! About!
About! About! About!
About! About!
About!
!!!​

On occasion Paul did write to the saved about the unsaved, but not in that text. In that text he was writing about the saints, not just to them.

He did the same thing in Php. 2:12. 1 John 4:18 is slightly different. In that verse John is writing about the condition of fear relevant to love - about those God has salvifically loved, but the latter portion is about those not perfected by that love and those in whom His love is perfected. Much of what John is writing about in that larger passage has to do with the discriminating qualities by which an authentic believer may be recognized or known. Philippians 2 is very different from that, and portion of Romans 10 that's about non-believers (or yet-to-be-believers) 1) still occurs within the covenant context and 2) is irrelevant to the audience affiliation of verses 9-10. Verses 9-10 are about those already saved. Therefore, the verses' salvation is not a salvation from sin but a salvation contemporary to that readership (most likely eschatological, not soteriological).

I don't know who did. I needed a break anyways.

Dave

What was needed was a pile of errors getting corrected.