What Is The Provisionist “Point Of No Return”?

[CCShorts]

The "point of no return" in the Provisionist Conditional Election view refers to the moment of confession or profession of faith, but the “foreseen” performance after the profession is what is believed to be the determining factor of whether an individual is regenerated by God or not. The argument suggests that if God foresees that a person will remain faithful to the end, He regenerates the individual at the point of confession. However, if God foresees that the person will renounce the faith in the future, then God does not regenerate the person at that “point”.

The problematic aspects of this view can be examined further:

Limitations on God's knowledge: The Provisionist Conditional Election view implies that God's knowledge of the future is dependent on human actions.

Purpose of regeneration: In the Provisionist Conditional Election view, regeneration appears to be contingent upon a person's future behavior rather than being an essential work of God's grace. This raises the question of the purpose of regeneration if individuals can remain faithful without it, which challenges the traditional understanding of salvation.

Merit-based salvation: The Provisionist Conditional Election view implies that salvation is determined by an individual's future performance, making it a merit-based system.

Emphasis on human responsibility and undermining God's sovereignty: This Provisionist view places significant emphasis on human responsibility, suggesting that an individual's response to God's grace determines their salvation.

God's relationship with time: The view presented in Provisionist Conditional Election suggests that God's foreknowledge is based on His perception of future human actions.

In conclusion, the Provisionist Conditional Election view presents challenges regarding God's knowledge, the purpose of regeneration, the nature of salvation, the balance between human responsibility and God's sovereignty, and the concept of God's relationship with time. An alternative perspective that upholds the sovereignty of God in salvation and the necessity of regeneration aligns more consistently with biblical teachings and avoids the aforementioned problems.

If you watch it a second time things start to stick out that you missed the first time through.
…

 

[Reformedguy]

The "point of no return" in the Provisionist Conditional Election view refers to the moment of confession or profession of faith, but the “foreseen” performance after the profession is what is believed to be the determining factor of whether an individual is regenerated by God or not. The argument suggests that if God foresees that a person will remain faithful to the end, He regenerates the individual at the point of confession. However, if God foresees that the person will renounce the faith in the future, then God does not regenerate the person at that “point”.

The problematic aspects of this view can be examined further:

Limitations on God's knowledge: The Provisionist Conditional Election view implies that God's knowledge of the future is dependent on human actions.

Purpose of regeneration: In the Provisionist Conditional Election view, regeneration appears to be contingent upon a person's future behavior rather than being an essential work of God's grace. This raises the question of the purpose of regeneration if individuals can remain faithful without it, which challenges the traditional understanding of salvation.

Merit-based salvation: The Provisionist Conditional Election view implies that salvation is determined by an individual's future performance, making it a merit-based system.

Emphasis on human responsibility and undermining God's sovereignty: This Provisionist view places significant emphasis on human responsibility, suggesting that an individual's response to God's grace determines their salvation.

God's relationship with time: The view presented in Provisionist Conditional Election suggests that God's foreknowledge is based on His perception of future human actions.

In conclusion, the Provisionist Conditional Election view presents challenges regarding God's knowledge, the purpose of regeneration, the nature of salvation, the balance between human responsibility and God's sovereignty, and the concept of God's relationship with time. An alternative perspective that upholds the sovereignty of God in salvation and the necessity of regeneration aligns more consistently with biblical teachings and avoids the aforementioned problems.

If you watch it a second time things start to stick out that you missed the first time through.
…

All the while screaming foreknowledge is not determinative.

 

[CCShorts]

All the while screaming foreknowledge is not determinative.

Well for them to remain consistent they would have to agree that whatever determined God's foreknowledge also determined the results of his knowledge before anything was created.

Logically Provisionism has something other than God Determining things he knows before anything was created.

They give this thing vague deceptive names such as "You" or "Will" or "Agent".

...

 

[ReverendRV]

The "point of no return" in the Provisionist Conditional Election view refers to the moment of confession or profession of faith, but the “foreseen” performance after the profession is what is believed to be the determining factor of whether an individual is regenerated by God or not. The argument suggests that if God foresees that a person will remain faithful to the end, He regenerates the individual at the point of confession. However, if God foresees that the person will renounce the faith in the future, then God does not regenerate the person at that “point”.

The problematic aspects of this view can be examined further:

Limitations on God's knowledge: The Provisionist Conditional Election view implies that God's knowledge of the future is dependent on human actions.

Purpose of regeneration: In the Provisionist Conditional Election view, regeneration appears to be contingent upon a person's future behavior rather than being an essential work of God's grace. This raises the question of the purpose of regeneration if individuals can remain faithful without it, which challenges the traditional understanding of salvation.

Merit-based salvation: The Provisionist Conditional Election view implies that salvation is determined by an individual's future performance, making it a merit-based system.

Emphasis on human responsibility and undermining God's sovereignty: This Provisionist view places significant emphasis on human responsibility, suggesting that an individual's response to God's grace determines their salvation.

God's relationship with time: The view presented in Provisionist Conditional Election suggests that God's foreknowledge is based on His perception of future human actions.

In conclusion, the Provisionist Conditional Election view presents challenges regarding God's knowledge, the purpose of regeneration, the nature of salvation, the balance between human responsibility and God's sovereignty, and the concept of God's relationship with time. An alternative perspective that upholds the sovereignty of God in salvation and the necessity of regeneration aligns more consistently with biblical teachings and avoids the aforementioned problems.

If you watch it a second time things start to stick out that you missed the first time through.
…

I watched this yesterday, as the Notification Alerted me. I did have to watch it twice. Without the Scripted Commentary added here and there, it's not so apparent the first time...

Professor Flowers is doubling down on accepting Open Theists into the Provisionism Camp. He said he's not an Open Theist, but he is working their Point of View into Provisionism in a way that the average Southern Baptist won't notice at first...

Professor Flowers is VERY Cunning. He may not look at this as being Cunning, but he is doing a good job at reconciling different beliefs. Reconciling them without Fundamentalism, that is. Without Unmerited Favor, right? It will be the Fundamentalists who expose him in the SBC...

 

[ReverendRV]

Well for them to remain consistent they would have to agree that whatever determined God's foreknowledge also determined the results of his knowledge before anything was created.

Logically Provisionism has something other than God Determining things he knows before anything was created.

They give this thing vague deceptive names such as "You" or "Will" or "Agent".

...

Providence is the Key to defeating Traditionalism. Have your CCShorts friend work on this...

 

[ReverendRV]

Providence is the Key to defeating Traditionalism. Have your CCShorts friend work on this...

Especially when it comes to the SBC...

Use the SBC's Core Beliefs against Professor Flowers; if they think he is after their Core Values; he will be Ousted. At the last SBC Conference, allowing Women Pastors was snuck into a Vote they wanted to Pass; but the SBC voted No by up to %80; just because of the Sneak. They sacrificed the Vote to allow Rick Warren back into the SBC, just to kill a Vote for Lady Preachers...

Since Professor Flowers is strengthening Provisionism by accepting Open Theists, why should we believe he wouldn't strengthen Provisionism by accept Lady Preachers into Provisionism when he gets desperate?

 

[CCShorts]

Providence is the Key to defeating Traditionalism. Have your CCShorts friend work on this...

As long as "Providence" allows room for a Deistic/Dualistic understanding then Traditionalism/Provisionism will remain comfortably undefeated in that nook.

...

 

[ReverendRV]

As long as "Providence" allows room for a Deistic/Dualistic understanding then Traditionalism/Provisionism will remain comfortably undefeated in that nook.

...

Providence by definition can't allow for Deism. Me thinks you're not trying hard enough

But nevermind. Carry on...

 

[CCShorts]

At Timestamp 8:31 Leighton uses a humanistic example to demonstrate what God is looking for before he “declares” your profession the “Point Of No Return”:

If “God sees” “Giving up” or “Walking away” or even “Genuine” but “temporary love” then he declares your performance not good enough to justify your profession…

Here’s the quote:

8:31
“when we talk about for example
love if somebody came to you and said
well I love that woman for a few months
but I don't love her anymore I loved her Performance based
for a few years but I don't love her
anymore well can I really call that love Performance based
if it's so temporary Performance based
in other words according to the
scripture Love Is defined Agape true
Agape alive not Eros like erotic love or
just brotherly love phileo but true
agape love is defined as a love that
never fails it does not end okay it's Performance based
committed love
well you may call it love but you don't
mean love in the way that God means love
if you say that… you may say well you
really had genuine feelings for that
person you genuinely felt uh affection
for that person I'm not saying that you Not denying “Genuine feelings”
don't but you didn't have what we would
call love okay that's not love because
you gave up you you walked away. Performance based
that's not real love
um in the same way in the same way when
we talk about saving Faith we're talking
about a faith that endures a faith that Performance based
does not fail therefore if I'm defining Performance based
it how do I Define it
how do I describe it I describe it as a
faith that endures and if it doesn't Performance based
endure then it wasn't a saving Faith Up to you to save yourself
because it didn't save it would be a Performance based
dead Faith or a temporary” Performance based


Your performance “didn’t save” you.

 

[CCShorts]

@ReverendRV @Reformedguy

As you can see for yourself Provisionist Leighton Flowers does teach that “God looks down the corridors of time” but the difference that sets Provisionism apart from Arminianism is that on Provisionism God does not save or regenerate based on a mere choice like he does in Arminianism. On Provisionism God is looking past the “choice” for works that justify that choice. If God ”sees” works, apart from regeneration, then God will reward you with both regeneration and salvation. Read Leighton’s words for yourself:

1:46
“the question really is more
are they leaving behind justification?”

Read this question, posed by Flowers, a few times and really consider what he is asking.
He is asking if God “sees” them “giving up” on their works that justify their choice!

Now he confirms works based justification here:

2:20
“If we're looking at this from God's perspective. God sees the Eternal. God sees what's happening in the entire person's life. He has the entire life in view when he makes his judgments, and so God has full view when he declares someone Justified he does it with everything in view of that person's life. We only see the temporary fruit, God sees the Eternal root. He sees it all.”

On Provisionism God is not merely “seeing” a choice. On Provisionism God is looking at “all” your works to “justify” that choice before he will regenerate or save you.

Now read Leighton’s question again.
1:46
“the question really is more
are they leaving behind justification?”

…

 

[David1701]

At Timestamp 8:31 Leighton uses a humanistic example to demonstrate what God is looking for before he “declares” your profession the “Point Of No Return”:

If “God sees” “Giving up” or “Walking away” or even “Genuine” but “temporary love” then he declares your performance not good enough to justify your profession…

Here’s the quote:

8:31
“when we talk about for example
love if somebody came to you and said
well I love that woman for a few months
but I don't love her anymore I loved her Performance based
for a few years but I don't love her
anymore well can I really call that love Performance based
if it's so temporary Performance based
in other words according to the
scripture Love Is defined Agape true
Agape alive not Eros like erotic love or
just brotherly love phileo but true
agape love is defined as a love that
never fails it does not end okay it's Performance based
committed love
well you may call it love but you don't
mean love in the way that God means love
if you say that… you may say well you
really had genuine feelings for that
person you genuinely felt uh affection
for that person I'm not saying that you Not denying “Genuine feelings”
don't but you didn't have what we would
call love okay that's not love because
you gave up you you walked away. Performance based
that's not real love
um in the same way in the same way when
we talk about saving Faith we're talking
about a faith that endures a faith that Performance based
does not fail therefore if I'm defining Performance based
it how do I Define it
how do I describe it I describe it as a
faith that endures and if it doesn't Performance based
endure then it wasn't a saving Faith Up to you to save yourself
because it didn't save it would be a Performance based
dead Faith or a temporary” Performance based


Your performance “didn’t save” you.

Yes; he clearly teaches salvation by works, whilst hiding behind words like "love" and "faith".

 

[Reformedguy]

@ReverendRV @Reformedguy

As you can see for yourself Provisionist Leighton Flowers does teach that “God looks down the corridors of time” but the difference that sets Provisionism apart from Arminianism is that on Provisionism God does not save or regenerate based on a mere choice like he does in Arminianism. On Provisionism God is looking past the “choice” for works that justify that choice. If God ”sees” works, apart from regeneration, then God will reward you with both regeneration and salvation. Read Leighton’s words for yourself:

1:46
“the question really is more
are they leaving behind justification?”

Read this question, posed by Flowers, a few times and really consider what he is asking.
He is asking if God “sees” them “giving up” on their works that justify their choice!

Now he confirms works based justification here:

2:20
“If we're looking at this from God's perspective. God sees the Eternal. God sees what's happening in the entire person's life. He has the entire life in view when he makes his judgments, and so God has full view when he declares someone Justified he does it with everything in view of that person's life. We only see the temporary fruit, God sees the Eternal root. He sees it all.”

On Provisionism God is not merely “seeing” a choice. On Provisionism God is looking at “all” your works to “justify” that choice before he will regenerate or save you.

Now read Leighton’s question again.
1:46
“the question really is more
are they leaving behind justification?”

…

It was just a matter of time. I believe next he will embrace Open Theism.

 

[ReverendRV]

It was just a matter of time. I believe next he will embrace Open Theism.

That's my Point. As a Baptist, when he starts welcoming Lady pastors; it will be because he's desperate to increase his Ranks. He'll leave the SBC to keep Privisionism alive...

 

[Reformedguy]

That was my Point. When he starts welcoming Lady pastors, as a Baptist; it will be because he is desperate to increase his Ranks. He probably leave the SBC to keep Privisionism alive...

Provisionism is how he makes his money. It is how he has made a name for himself.

 

[Reformedguy]

How much you give a month?

Yikes. Can you imagine.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

All the while screaming foreknowledge is not determinative.

Which it isn't. "PREDESTINATION" is "determinative", "Foreknowledge" is only an awareness of what will happen.

Chuckle!! "Provisionism" seems to be just another brand new new religious "Buzz Word" to confuse everybody with. "Theology" - you gotta love it!!

 

[Reformedguy]

Which it isn't. "PREDESTINATION" is "determinative", "Foreknowledge" is only an awareness of what will happen.

Chuckle!! "Provisionism" seems to be just another brand new new religious "Buzz Word" to confuse everybody with. "Theology" - you gotta love it!!

Or foreknowledge could be based on what He has determined to occur.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Or foreknowledge could be based on what He has determined to occur.

Then it's not "Foreknowledge" at all.

 

[CCShorts]

Or foreknowledge could be based on what He has determined to occur.

Then it's not "Foreknowledge" at all.

Why not?
…

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why not?
…

"Predestination" CONTROLS. "Foreknowledge" only knows. God's "Foreknowledge" depends on what we DO in our own free will.