Was the veil that was torn symbolic in meaning?

[Dave]

What was is symbolic of?

Was there more than one layer of symbolism?

The question comes from an old post written in reply to me from somewhere else about OT saints. Here's the quote...

"Yeah, they lived behind the veil and couldn't see the mystery. But, thanks be to God, he ripped it from bottom to top and they no longer could claim that ignorance."

I thought it might be worth exploring.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The veil was the big 4 inch thick curtain in the Temple that separated the Holy of Holies - where God's Spirit resided - from the people.

When Jesus died the literal curtain in the literal Temple was torn, a symbol that Christ's work was completed and we now had access to God. Death no longer means eternal separation from God, but rather, reconciliation to God through His son Jesus Christ.

I don't understand the words in your OP, the question or statement. While the veil symbolizes a barrier between God and man and Jesus' death tore down that barrier, we still have to go through Jesus to enter the Presence of God and be reconciled.

Here's an article from Ligonier ministries, I have quoted a small portion below:

"In the Old Testament, as we go on further and we see the covenant made with Moses and the whole cultic system of religion and worship in the Old Testament with the construction of the temple, we see this particular aspect of the curse manifested very clearly in the structure of Israelite worship. Where do we find it? In the Holy of Holies.


And what’s the difference between the Holy of Holies in the Holy Place? Only the high priest—and after elaborate procedures of cleansing—once a year can go into the Holy of Holies. What’s in the Holy of Holies? The ark of the covenant, the mercy seat, the throne of Yahweh, surrounded by the cherubim that indicate the presence of God. What separates the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place? The veil that is so thick and it’s so solid that it’s impregnable. It’s an impregnable barrier. It’s not like a linen curtain that hangs down, but the veil is several inches thick, and battering rams couldn’t knock that thing down.


And the point is what? People are allowed to come into the Holy Place. They’re not left to roam outside the camp totally removed from the presence of God, but what? They’re allowed to come nigh unto the Lord, to draw near to the Lord. They can come to a relative place of nearness, where God will meet with His people in the Holy Place, but they are not allowed to go beyond the veil into the Holy of Holies. Access to the presence of God is denied.


Again, we’ll see this theme throughout the Old Testament and into the New Testament that the ultimate goal of the Christian for his total fulfillment of human existence is what? Let me ask you, what is the great hope of the final fullest expression of your human existence at the end? What do you live for? What does the Christian live for? To see God, what we call the beatific vision or the visio Dei, the vision of God—the unveiled, unobscured perception of God Himself.


What happened in Jerusalem the day Jesus died? The veil was rent. The description there is one of violence, where God comes down in the act of the cross, He shakes the world, as it were, with an earthquake, and He rips that veil in half. And the wall of partition, the New Testament says, has been broken down through the work of Christ. And what’s the significance of that according to the Apostle Paul? Look at chapter five of Romans: “Therefore, since we are justified by faith”— what do we have? Peace with God. Shalom. God puts away the sword."

The Veil Has Been Torn

When Adam and Eve sinned against God in the garden of Eden, they lost their intimate fellowship with Him. Today, R.C. Sproul teaches on how our close access to God is restored through the work of Jesus Christ.

learn.ligonier.org

As to layers of symbolism, it symbolized that the physical temple was left desolate (God's Spirit no longer resided in the Temple - desolation just means a state of complete emptiness, and the Temple was desolate of the presence of God upon the death of Jesus).

It also symbolized that Jesus' work on the cross was done and we have a new High Priest of the Covenant, and direct access to God through Him.

It symbolized that Jesus is the only way to reconciliation between God and man as well, as Jesus himself is symbolic of being the veil or the barrier between Gods presence and man.

It also symbolized the fact that death is no longer a cause for permanent separation between God and man because of sin, but rather, through Christ, we can have forgiveness for sin, and a means of approaching to Throne of Grace and enter into God's presence eternally.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Lees]

What was is symbolic of?

Was there more than one layer of symbolism?

The question comes from an old post written in reply to me from somewhere else about OT saints. Here's the quote...

"Yeah, they lived behind the veil and couldn't see the mystery. But, thanks be to God, he ripped it from bottom to top and they no longer could claim that ignorance."

I thought it might be worth exploring.

Was the vail rent literal?

If so, why does it's meaning become symbolicall? Or are you suggesting the record of the rent vail is just a story meant to symbolically present something?

If the rent vail literally occurred, why should it be considered a symbol. And why isn't it's meaning literal?

Lees

 

[Hazelelponi]

Was the vail rent literal?

Yes

If so, why does it's meaning become symbolicall?

Because the veil is itself a symbol of something, so it's destruction is likely to mean more than a tapestry got supernaturally torn for no reason, the second Jesus died.

If the rent vail literally occurred, why should it be considered a symbol. And why isn't it's meaning literal?

Lees

Because the veil is itself a symbolic barrier.

If it was just literal then it has zero meaning whatsoever outside of a tapestry that tore.(Just happened at the moment Jesus died).

We actually ascribe deeper meaning to things in our faith than the atheist, for example.

Scripture tells us the symbolic meaning of the rent veil.

The Spurgeon Library | The Rent Veil

www.spurgeon.org

" It is not fanciful to regard it as a solemn act of mourning on the part of the house of the Lord. In the East men express their sorrow by rending their garments; and the temple, when it beheld its Master die, seemed struck with horror, and rent its veil. Shocked at the sin of man, indignant at the murder of its Lord, in its sympathy with him who is the true temple of God, the outward symbol tore its holy vestment from the top to the bottom. Did not the miracle also mean that from that hour the whole system of types, and shadows, and ceremonies had come to an end? The ordinances of an earthly priesthood were rent with that veil. In token of the death of the ceremonial law, the soul of it quitted its sacred shrine, and left its bodily tabernacle as a dead thing. The legal dispensation is over. The rent of the veil seemed to say— “Henceforth God dwells no longer in the thick darkness of the Holy of Holies, and shines forth no longer from between the cherubim. The special enclosure is broken up, and there is no inner sanctuary for the earthly high priest to enter: typical atonements and sacrifices are at an end".

 

[Soyeong]

What was is symbolic of?

Was there more than one layer of symbolism?

The question comes from an old post written in reply to me from somewhere else about OT saints. Here's the quote...

"Yeah, they lived behind the veil and couldn't see the mystery. But, thanks be to God, he ripped it from bottom to top and they no longer could claim that ignorance."

I thought it might be worth exploring.

It was common for people to rip their clothes in mourning.

 

[Carbon]

It was common for people to rip their clothes in mourning.

Kinda sounds like a temper tantrum.

 

[Soyeong]

Kinda sounds like a temper tantrum.

Perhaps a temple tantrum, but not really. For example, it is a common practice for people to rip their clothes upon seeing the Kotel if they haven’t seen it in over 30 days, which I would have done when I was there last month if it had not been on the Sabbath.

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps a temple tantrum, but not really. For example, it is a common practice for people to rip their clothes upon seeing the Kotel if they haven’t seen it in over 30 days, which I would have done when I was there last month if it had not been on the Sabbath.

Hmmm. It's an interesting practice.

 

[Arial]

What was is symbolic of?

Was there more than one layer of symbolism?

The question comes from an old post written in reply to me from somewhere else about OT saints. Here's the quote...

"Yeah, they lived behind the veil and couldn't see the mystery. But, thanks be to God, he ripped it from bottom to top and they no longer could claim that ignorance."

I thought it might be worth exploring.

I think it was symbolic of at least three things.
1. The place the kingly HIgh Priest would occupy.
2. Opening access to all in Him to come before God directly. Our access to his throne of grace.
3. The beginning of an entirely new system of worship.

 

[Dave]

I don't understand the words in your OP, the question or statement. While the veil symbolizes a barrier between God and man and Jesus' death tore down that barrier, we still have to go through Jesus to enter the Presence of God and be reconciled.

The discussion I had from the quote in the OP was in the context of the ignorance that the OT saints had compared to after they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Basically, my "What happened in Acts" thread. I didn't want to turn this thread in that direction, but I was wondering if there was anything in that symbolism of the veil that suggested what the person that I quoted said. That somehow it symbolized that the ignorance from the OT believers was about to end. I never heard that before. That's why I thought I would bounce it off of you guys and see what was there, if anything.

Dave

 

[Hazelelponi]

The discussion I had from the quote in the OP was in the context of the ignorance that the OT saints had compared to after they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Basically, my "What happened in Acts" thread. I didn't want to turn this thread in that direction, but I was wondering if there was anything in that symbolism of the veil that suggested what the person that I quoted said. That somehow it symbolized that the ignorance from the OT believers was about to end. I never heard that before. That's why I thought I would bounce it off of you guys and see what was there, if anything.

Dave

The veil never represented ignorance, in my understanding.

It represents the flaming swords that prevent man from re-entering Eden. It represents the fall of man and it's consequences, that is death and separation from God.

There's a sense of ignorance in there but I don't believe the statement is accurate. I have never heard anyone say anything like that before anyway, and it doesn't fit in keeping with my own understanding of the veil and what it symbolized, and what function it served.

Old Testament believers were saved by Jesus same as us, they just didn't know him the same way.

Behind the veil is the Holy of Holies, not ignorance, but that is death to sinful man.

 

[prism]

I think it was symbolic of at least three things.
1. The place the kingly HIgh Priest would occupy.
2. Opening access to all in Him to come before God directly. Our access to his throne of grace.
3. The beginning of an entirely new system of worship.

And the winner is....#2

 

[Lees]

Yes


Because the veil is itself a symbol of something, so it's destruction is likely to mean more than a tapestry got supernaturally torn for no reason, the second Jesus died.



Because the veil is itself a symbolic barrier.

If it was just literal then it has zero meaning whatsoever outside of a tapestry that tore.(Just happened at the moment Jesus died).

We actually ascribe deeper meaning to things in our faith than the atheist, for example.

Scripture tells us the symbolic meaning of the rent veil.

If the veil was literal...a literal veil...and the renting of it was literal...it was literally rent...then why is it's renting symbolic?

The veil itself was made after the veil literally existing in Heaven. As was the whole Tabernacle. (Ex. 25:8-9) "And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it."

(Heb. 8:5) "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

I never said the veil or Tabernacle was 'just literal'. But it was literal and represented the Tabernacle in Heaven. Of which we can learn many literal truths.

Why this comparison to the atheist?

If, as you say, the veil is symbolic, then (Rev. 15) cannot be symbolic. See (Rev. 15:5) (15:8) Else you have a symbol representing not the true but another symbol. Meaning (Rev. 15) should be taken literally.

Lees

 

[Hazelelponi]

If the veil was literal...a literal veil...and the renting of it was literal...it was literally rent...then why is it's renting symbolic?

The veil itself was made after the veil literally existing in Heaven. As was the whole Tabernacle. (Ex. 25:8-9) "And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it."

(Heb. 8:5) "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount."

I never said the veil or Tabernacle was 'just literal'. But it was literal and represented the Tabernacle in Heaven. Of which we can learn many literal truths.

The veil only represented one portion of the tabernacle (the barrier to it), because the veil is only one item - not the whole of the Holy of Holies.

Why this comparison to the atheist?

I thought it would be handy to remind readers that we ascribe deeper meaning to things such as the rending of the veil..

I didn't compare anyone to anything. I pointed out a contrast.

If, as you say, the veil is symbolic, then (Rev. 15) cannot be symbolic. See (Rev. 15:5) (15:8) Else you have a symbol representing not the true but another symbol. Meaning (Rev. 15) should be taken literally.

Lees

Since Revelation is a completely different book of the Bible written in a completely different writing style (apocalyptic) as opposed to Matthew and Luke (theological, historical) and Revelation 15:5 makes no reference to the veil whatever I'm quite unsure why you think there's a point of comparison somewhere in that.

They aren't written in the same style or written for the same reason and they aren't talking about the same event so I have no obligation to accept literal interpretations of Revelation because of something unrelated in theological and historical records.

I didn't think we were talking about the book of Revelation anyway, I thought we were talking about Matthew and the veil being torn and what the various symbolic meanings thereof might be. That's what the OP is about and the exact and only topic I was addressing.

"51And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." (Matthew 27:51-53)

 

[Hazelelponi]

Kinda sounds like a temper tantrum.

It's called righteous indignation.

It's a horror and a mourning over the extreme nature of the offense against God. It's just a righteous indignation that runs deep.

 

[Lees]

The veil only represented one portion of the tabernacle (the barrier to it), because the veil is only one item - not the whole of the Holy of Holies.



I thought it would be handy to remind readers that we ascribe deeper meaning to things such as the rending of the veil..

I didn't compare anyone to anything. I pointed out a contrast.




Since Revelation is a completely different book of the Bible written in a completely different writing style (apocalyptic) as opposed to Matthew and Luke (theological, historical) and Revelation 15:5 makes no reference to the veil whatever I'm quite unsure why you think there's a point of comparison somewhere in that.

They aren't written in the same style or written for the same reason and they aren't talking about the same event so I have no obligation to accept literal interpretations of Revelation because of something unrelated in theological and historical records.

I didn't think we were talking about the book of Revelation anyway, I thought we were talking about Matthew and the veil being torn and what the various symbolic meanings thereof might be. That's what the OP is about and the exact and only topic I was addressing.

"51And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." (Matthew 27:51-53)

Just because the veil is only one part of the Tabernacle doesn't mean it must be interpreted 'symbolically'. The Tabernacle in Heaven was no symbol. The Tabernacle on earth was no symbol. The veil in the Tabernacle on earth served a very real and literal purpose. The barrier it provided between man and God was real. For with it God could dwell on earth with man. It was torn on earth because it was torn in Heaven. It revealed a truth concerning the Person of Jesus Christ, and that a new way now literally existed. Some might call it a new dispensation as opposed to the old dispensation.

(Heb. 10:19-20) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

Was Jesus flesh symbolic? Or real and literal? Answer: real and literal. And when He was torn, the way was opened in the Heavenly as well as the earthly, because the earthly was made after the pattern of the Heavenly. (Heb. 8:5) Makes one wonder what the Jews did with the torn veil.

Ones method of interpretation doesn't change from book to book in the Bible....or, it shouldn't. (Revelation) should not be interpreted any differently than any other book. There is literal and symbolic in (Revelation).

Well, we are talking about the veil, in the Tabernacle, made after that which is in Heaven. And (John 15:5) (15:8) speaks to that...literally. Meaning the Tabernacle on earth represented the Tabernacle in Heaven. Everything in the Tabernacle and the Tabernacle itself reveals much truth about God and Christ and our salvation.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[Hazelelponi]

Just because the veil is only one part of the Tabernacle doesn't mean it must be interpreted 'symbolically'. The Tabernacle in Heaven was no symbol. The Tabernacle on earth was no symbol. The veil in the Tabernacle on earth served a very real and literal purpose. The barrier it provided between man and God was real. For with it God could dwell on earth with man. It was torn on earth because it was torn in Heaven. It revealed a truth concerning the Person of Jesus Christ, and that a new way now literally existed. Some might call it a new dispensation as opposed to the old dispensation.

(Heb. 10:19-20) "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;"

Was Jesus flesh symbolic? Or real and literal? Answer: real and literal. And when He was torn, the way was opened in the Heavenly as well as the earthly, because the earthly was made after the pattern of the Heavenly. (Heb. 8:5) Makes one wonder what the Jews did with the torn veil.

Ones method of interpretation doesn't change from book to book in the Bible....or, it shouldn't. (Revelation) should not be interpreted any differently than any other book. There is literal and symbolic in (Revelation).

Well, we are talking about the veil, in the Tabernacle, made after that which is in Heaven. And (John 15:5) (15:8) speaks to that...literally. Meaning the Tabernacle on earth represented the Tabernacle in Heaven. Everything in the Tabernacle and the Tabernacle itself reveals much truth about God and Christ and our salvation.

My opinion.

Lees

You talk about interpreting the Temple literally (which I am) and discuss the Holy of Holies being a replica of the things in Heaven, in the Throne room of God on High...

Which is all well and good... I don't disagree.

But you seem to be trying to argue against my "symbolic" interpretation of the veil, while seeming to agree with symbolic interpretations of the veil.

I am unclear what this has to do with various interpreting styles for understanding the book of Revelation - but there seems to be some determinative push for reasons unknown in a topic that has no relationship to how to interpret apocalyptic literature in the Bible.

But since you bring it up I only have one question for you, I'll make it really simple to answer.

Do you think a tapestry is hanging between us here on earth and the Throne room of God the Most High in heaven which is keeping us from the fullness of His presence?

Or do you suppose just maybe, the physical tapestry represents something else other than a carpet between heaven and earth?

 

[Arial]

You talk about interpreting the Temple literally (which I am) and discuss the Holy of Holies being a replica of the things in Heaven, in the Throne room of God on High...

Which is all well and good... I don't disagree.

But you seem to be trying to argue against my "symbolic" interpretation of the veil, while seeming to agree with symbolic interpretations of the veil.

I am unclear what this has to do with various interpreting styles for understanding the book of Revelation - but there seems to be some determinative push for reasons unknown in a topic that has no relationship to how to interpret apocalyptic literature in the Bible.

But since you bring it up I only have one question for you, I'll make it really simple to answer.

Do you think a tapestry is hanging between us here on earth and the Throne room of God the Most High in heaven which is keeping us from the fullness of His presence?

Or do you suppose just maybe, the physical tapestry represents something else other than a carpet between heaven and earth?

You are exactly right in all points made, including the attempt to drive the OP to a different discussion.

Only the High Priest could go behind the curtain that separated the Holy place from the Most Holy place (Holy of Hollies). The High Priest went in once a year as a mediator between God and the Israelites after first cleansing himself and offering sacrifices for the sins of the people. Both this mediation and the fact that no one but the mediating High Priest could enter are significant in the renting of the curtain when Jesus died.

The answer to that is quite clear in Heb 10: 1-14.

Verse 10 And by that will (the will of the Father verses 5-9) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11-14 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Heb 4:14-16 Therefore, since we have a great High priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are---but he did it sin. Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[Arial]

Just because the veil is only one part of the Tabernacle doesn't mean it must be interpreted 'symbolically'. The Tabernacle in Heaven was no symbol. The Tabernacle on earth was no symbol. The veil in the Tabernacle on earth served a very real and literal purpose. The barrier it provided between man and God was real. For with it God could dwell on earth with man. It was torn on earth because it was torn in Heaven. It revealed a truth concerning the Person of Jesus Christ, and that a new way now literally existed. Some might call it a new dispensation as opposed to the old dispensation.

There was a symbolic tearing of the veil in Matt 27:51. The OP is asking what was it in the view of whoever answers the question. Not on methods of interpretation, or what is literal in the Bible and what isn't, as is presented in the rest of your post.

 

[Mr GLee]

What was is symbolic of?

Was there more than one layer of symbolism?

The question comes from an old post written in reply to me from somewhere else about OT saints. Here's the quote...

"Yeah, they lived behind the veil and couldn't see the mystery. But, thanks be to God, he ripped it from bottom to top and they no longer could claim that ignorance."

I thought it might be worth exploring.

The ceremonial law of circumcision (Bloody husband) It is used to represent Christ. The unseen spiritual husband

The vail to represent the foreskin cut off. . . . of the first born again of God's spiritual understanding, birth used in that parable. Not born of men. Flesh gives birth or understanding of flesh

Moses law of circumcision used in a continuation of the doctrine mankind must be born again of Holy Spirit of God Almighty. The seed of second born beginning with the apostle Abel who was murdered by his brother Cain for Abel preaching the good news

God protecting the second born seed (Christ). He appointed another second born to replace Abel. . Enos. It was then and not a second before when born again mankind began to hear the call unto the authority of the name of Christ.

Genes 4:25-26 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

Establishing a person must be born again "marvel not"

Marveling, it just leads to wondering, wondering, marveling ?

Moses signified as the voice of God in that parable did not give directions to the priestess Zipporah . In that parable like the Isaac and Abrahm parable a figure of speech

Genesis 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Same kind of parable using Zipporah the anointed priestess the sacrificial . Bloody husband twice to emphasize

Exodus 4:24;And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.;Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.;So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

When the vail used to represent the foreskin was rent from the top to the bottom there was no literal bloody husband sitting in the holy of holies .Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations of the world God is a dying Jewish man and not a eternal invisible Holy Spirit